SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

If it doesn't give us WE penalties, I'd go ahead. I'm a bit worried that Toku will hate us though, so I'm 50/50.

giving to demand does not give trade with worst enemy penalties.

Mutineer said:

giving to demand does not give trade with worst enemy penalties.

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I'm pretty sure this is incorrect... I guess we'll find out soon enough though

Ok, will give then. I also thought we'd get WE with Toku...

Yep. -2 WE penalty... Oh, well.

Oh well, -2 will go away eventually so it's not that bad. I guess Saladin must have had some beakers in it.

hmm.. I was wrong it seems. I was sure demands do not give penalties, strange..

Have to call it a night. Played to Education. I'll finish the set first thing tmr morning. Interim save's uploaded.

Quick summary:

We're on schedule for universities. I overshot the Educ beakers by about 100 - didn't realize how much we'd be making at 0% at the end. Oh, well...

Lost the western explorer. I played it as per Mutineer's suggestion and got by the barb galley, but ended up next to another one 2t later.

Sal came demanding again 2t after COL and I denied (stop trade with Toku - the diplo numbers made sense to me with denial).

Good news - Justinian converted to Buddhism! That should save us some effort later.

I'll do a full report after I finish tmr.

We need to connect marble before we research literature, so we can build NE efficiently. (Basically meaning NOW).
You forgot to move warrior on which you put taoism missionary, so he does not go to provide military police.

Mutineer said:

That is incorrect. Seens last patch excess of overflow does not convert to gold any longer. So, have too mach overflow become bad thin.

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Extra overflow (over the hammers of the overflowing build) from chops and whips is lost. Extra overflow from regular hammers is still converted to gold.

Mutineer said:

giving to demand does not give trade with worst enemy penalties.

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Giving into demands is exactly the same as gifting the item in question, regarding fair trade and WE hate.

Sure, I'll road marble after finishing the current chop.
Completely forgot about moving the damn warrior. That's awful. Rice will need MP soon.

Luckily, if we refrain from giving more freebies to Sally, -2 WE with Toku is not bad at all. We've only known him for what, max 40 turns (not sure which turn it is currently)? So if no more hate actions are done it will "decay" to 0 in 41-80 turns.

Look at the save, everything looks good. I'd move the warrior over but I'm not too concerned about the timing - Rice is going to start whipping soon so it'll shrink. Also, I'm assuming that we're going to fire all specs in 2-fish for the interim? Either that or they need to be converted into all merchants. I'd opt for the former.

As for Delhi, I'd work the grass hill or plains cottage (your choice) instead of the corn, and give the corn to Bombay. Delhi will lose 2 pop no matter what we do, I think, so we might as well lend the corn for a few turns.

Last, I'm assuming we want to revolt to OR before we start our whipping spree? Delhi will be the only city running GPP so the loss of pacifism will be minimal.

Ok, I finished the set. Made a couple of pretty major mistakes:

1) Miscalculated the NE overflow thing - we've got 57h out of a max of 112.
2) I made a last minute change regarding Bombay while playing. Too cute - ended up 1t late on the Uni whip and, subsequently, Oxford.

Other things (in random order):

• The two forests east of Delhi are pre-chopped. Delhi's been running an Eng all along - I was just playing with tile assignments. Should re-hire. Whoever plays next should check the hammers, but I think we need 12 base to complete in 4t.
• There's some overflow in Bombay - I have a worker as a placeholder. We could potentially also go for another settler now and make an attempt at the other gold?
• The Buddhist missionary is in Aksum and hasn't moved this turn. Not sure how we wanna proceed with this. We should be out of OR in two turns, after the Delhi chops, I think. I guess the best option is to send to Delhi and build monastery - missionary after Oxford? Another option would be to save the overflow in Bombay and get those built there. In any case, there's bound to be some delay in adopting, since we need the state religion in Delhi and Two Fish as a bare minimum.
• What do we wanna do with the Spain warrior? I started moving it through Izzy's territory so it can potentially be picked up by the new galley? Mehmed's borders got the last dye now.
• Rice is missing MP badly, as a consequence of my southern warrior slip-up. Haven't looked at it too closely. We could just run some specialists for a while. Marble could maybe build another unit with the overflow, but that seems like a total waste. It's also possible we could play musical chairs with the one from Marble, but I haven't looked at that and I doubt it.
• Traded one of the fish to Justinian for 3 gpt last turn.
• Two AI's have Aesthetics now... What would it take to pull off a trade? One more AI or more than that?
• Zara is close to finishing Monarchy, so we should sell for loose cash, probably next turn.
• Chopping all the forests at Two Fish will be tough. We're short workers, and some cities (Bombay, Rice, Oasis) could use improvements in the short term. Also, we have lots of spare resources not hooked up. I think that speaks in favour of using the Bombay overflow on a worker, and maybe building one more. Unless I'm misjudging the situation, haven't looked very closely.
• Losing the western explorer is bad. Nothing I could do about it, but I'm not sure how to proceed. Do you guys think we need a trireme going there? I'm worried a spy galley might not even make it. I saw two barb galleys 3-4t apart. We should check for Justinian's map - I completely forgot about this while playing.

I'll take a look at the save once I get home but I think those are pretty minor mistakes. We've all made mistakes here and there that have cost us a turn or two so I wouldn't worry about it too much. We are human after all Just out of curiosity though - how did you lose the NE overflow? Did you dump it into something else or did you go over the hammer limit?

Rice is not going to be super-useful in our game, at least until it grows large enough to run a decent number of specs.

If I remember, 2-fish will take about 10-12 turns to re-grow to max size from size 5ish. So I'd prefer to spread the missionary to Delhi which will then build a monastery and missionary after Oxford. I think it should barely finish in time for when we swap to pacifism. I don't see the need to switch to pacifism until we are running specialists in at least Delhi + 2-fish, and we can use the hammers elsewhere for now. Of course if any of the AI comes to get us to swap to Buddhism, we should take it immediately for the free diplo.

I would send the workers to chop out the NE in 2-fish. The spare resources are not as important as getting the NE up at around the time that 2-fish reaches size 12-13.

edit: That drop in score is pretty amazing

Also, I believe mysty is up next, with mdy on deck (if he's back).

shyuhe said:

Just out of curiosity though - how did you lose the NE overflow? Did you dump it into something else or did you go over the hammer limit?

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Invested too many hammers in forge, went over from 3pop to 2pop Uni.

If I remember, 2-fish will take about 10-12 turns to re-grow to max size from size 5ish. So I'd prefer to spread the missionary to Delhi which will then build a monastery and missionary after Oxford. I think it should barely finish in time for when we swap to pacifism. I don't see the need to switch to pacifism until we are running specialists in at least Delhi + 2-fish, and we can use the hammers elsewhere for now. Of course if any of the AI comes to get us to swap to Buddhism, we should take it immediately for the free diplo.

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IIRC, Two Fish is currently size 7 and growing. We need Caste for merchants. Are you suggesting we just switch to Caste and wait 5t for Pacifism? I guess that may be ok.

edit: That drop in score is pretty amazing

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I know. I was originally planning to only submit the final save, so the other teams can't see exactly when we built OU, but something came up last night and I had to stop playing just before.

shyuhe said:

I'll take a look at the save once I get home but I think those are pretty minor mistakes.

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IMHO, the Oxford 1t is minor - it was an intense schedule anyway. The NE thing may be more significant, since we're severely lacking in hammers there. Don't really know how many turns it ultimately loses...

Hahah laughed out loud @ that score drop. Hope people will think it's actually us losing a city, I certainly wouldn't think it's a huge bunch of whippage.

Hope to provide actual participation later...

Silu said:

Hahah laughed out loud @ that score drop. Hope people will think it's actually us losing a city, I certainly wouldn't think it's a huge bunch of whippage.

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Unless you also happen to look at the culture graph.

Well that would be cheating.