New Info

KrikkitTwo

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http://e3.gamespot.com/story/626533...a-first-e3-details?tag=topslot;thumb;1&page=2


Social Policies (replacement for Governments/Civics/Religion) cost culture, and are non-exclusive.. more is better


Units have ZOC that slows Enemy (must be at war) to 1 hex move/turn.

Siege units are strong but must be 'set up'

All Naval military units are ranged attackers... and can attack Land units

City-States vote in the UN

City-states are Maritime, cultured, or militaristic

Big roles for gold= Territory+Diplomacy

Advisors, not tutorial

Notifications (ike city needs production) can be 'put off'

(You get 1 hex/turn of free territory.... that may be per Empire not per city?)
 
Social Policies (replacement for Governments/Civics/Religion) cost culture, and are non-exclusive.. more is better

I like the "cost culture", but non-exclusive makes little sense to me. How can you be both an absolute monarchy and a democracy? How can you have both State religion and religious tolerance?
Mutual exclusivity is a key driver of making interesting strategic choices.

Units have ZOC that slows Enemy (must be at war) to 1 hex move/turn.
a la Battle for Wesnoth.
Interesting, I suspected this might be the case. For the best I think.
[Also makes my flanking exploit worries obsolete]

All Naval military units are ranged attackers
Even galleys? Ugh, don't like this.
Also don't like the idea of naval units bombing very long distances inland. Nothing pre-ww2 should be able to get anything except a single coastal tile, and nothing except missile cruisers and aircraft should be able to bomb more than 2 tiles inland.
And no bombing over hills/mountains.

City-States vote in the UN
Interesting. I wonder if we're moving to 1 vote per faction, instead of population weighting. That would make good relations and diplomatic horse-trading (and puppet states) more valuable.
"Every player in the game has one vote, including the city-states, making them vital to winning this way"
Looks like yes.

City-states are Maritime, cultured, or militaristic
Makes sense, we'd assumed this.

Big roles for gold= Territory+Diplomacy
Hmm, I'm a little worried. "Diplomacy" is not really a role for gold. Why should the other player value your offer to them of gold if there aren't things they can spend it on.
Money is only valuable if you can buy stuff with it. So, if all it gives you is territory, that's kinda lame.

Advisors, not tutorial
I'm suspicious...
Maybe they'll be like Hearts of Iron style cabinet members, that give bonuses/penalties in particular fields.

Notifications (ike city needs production) can be 'put off'
We already knew this.

Thanks for the info.

I'll add:
Flanking seems to be based on positioning - and applies even to ranged attacks??
[Look at the screenshot; the target is being attacked from the front and has attacker cavalry to its right-rear]

Also, we seem to have a display for combat modifiers, but no display of probability outcomes.

Siege units are more powerful than archers, but must be set up before firing.
[I like this, interesting way to differentiate these two fire support roles]

"No longer are diplomatic modifiers shown"
I hate this. Hate, hate, hate, hate. As discussed many times before.
Black box systems are just frustrating, and lead to an inability to make meaningful diplomatic strategy.
"but we wanted there to be more mystery in the interaction"
Ugh.... transparency is a good thing!
Looks like we might also have transparency problems on the combat result front (see above).
I don't want to know "major victory expected", I want to know the probability of various outcomes.

"While city-states can be friends with any player, they can be allied to only one at a time. City-states grant all of their resources to their ally and will join that ally in war"
"As the game progresses, city-states will make various requests of you. Some might request the major powers kill another neighboring city-state, while others might ask you to clear out some nearby barbarians."
Cool.

"Players may choose which tiles are obtained with money, but the price will depend on how easy or hard it would be for the city to claim the tile normally."
Hmm. Interesting.

"Additionally, like in previous Civ games, gold may be used to purchase units, buildings, and other important properties"
So, units and buildings too. Great. Sounds useful then.

Slider gone, as we knew. Big economy change, very interesting.

Gold and science have been completely split up and come from different sources now.
Most science now comes from your population, though specialist populations and unique tile improvements also contribute
From your population? That seems odd.

*edit*

Missed page 1:
As players accumulate culture over time, they're able to spend it to adopt social policies. There are 10 branches to select from, most of them requiring the player be in a particular era to utilize. Each branch is themed around a different aspect of the game. For example, the early-game "honor" branch provides bonuses to one's military, while the later "commerce" branch improves one's gold output.

This is weird. I think its very odd to have social policies improving military and commerce. This is what tech should be for.
Also, if social policies are these kinds of things, then what has happened to actual governments policies?

The advisors in many ways serve as a tutorial for the game
I read this as; advisors ARE the tutorial.
So, turn them off after the first game.


ALSO: see the screenshots http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/civilizationv/images/6265330/1/?tag=thumbs_below;thumb;1
 
I like the "cost culture", but non-exclusive makes little sense to me. How can you be both an absolute monarchy and a democracy? How can you have both State religion and religious tolerance?
Mutual exclusivity is a key driver of making interesting strategic choices.

If I had to guess then I assume you can either switch between them or that they have some antagonistic bonuses/penalties. A democracy might decrease city maintenance, increase unit maintenance and let you rushbuy while police state might decrease military maintenance, increase city maintenance and allow military police. You could have them both but they'd mostly cancel out and be a waste of culture spending.
 
Not to be too much of a lawyer, but can we cite things for new information? :). You'll see in the other thread on the video and screenshots, that most of us are linking new info to a source.

For instance, I'm not sure "All" navy can bombard.

The JS quote is:

"All warships are now ranged units with the ability to hit land targets, dramatically increasing their importance relative to previous games in the series. "

I'm not sure a galley qualifies as a warship, but I'd be surprised if it could bombard.
 
If I had to guess then I assume you can either switch between them or that they have some antagonistic bonuses/penalties. A democracy might decrease city maintenance, increase unit maintenance and let you rushbuy while police state might decrease military maintenance, increase city maintenance and allow military police. You could have them both but they'd mostly cancel out and be a waste of culture spending.

Here is the Actual quote regarding Social Change only going forward:

"At E3, we'll reveal the social policies system, a major new feature that we haven't talked much about before. As players accumulate culture over time, they're able to spend it to adopt social policies. There are 10 branches to select from, most of them requiring the player be in a particular era to utilize. Each branch is themed around a different aspect of the game. For example, the early-game "honor" branch provides bonuses to one's military, while the later "commerce" branch improves one's gold output.

With the policies system, we wanted to keep the feel of mixing and matching to construct one's government that was part of Civ IV, but we also wanted to instill a sense of forward momentum. Rather than having to switch out of one policy to adopt another, you build upon the policies already unlocked. The thought process we want to promote is "What cool new effect do I want?" rather than the feeling of needing to perform detailed analysis to determine if switching is a good idea."

You aren't "both" a Monarchy and a Democracy. Once you move forward, you're permanently out of the older option, in that you now have new bonuses. This my simplify the game, but I must say, it's pretty odd to think of an advanced civ just flopping civics around whenever it wants.
 
Historically, ballista's and catapults have been installed on oar-propelled ships.

Alright maybe in some instances, but it's not like most of the ancient navies used ships for bombarding anybody. We think of Triemes, Viking Longships, etc. for attacking other boats and/or making amphibious attack with its carrying infantry.

Bombarding only comes with the rise of the cannon.

Anyway, regardless of real-life parallels, having an ancient-era ship that could bombard spearman and archers on land would have a massive gameplay angle...
 
Hmm, I'm a little worried. "Diplomacy" is not really a role for gold. Why should the other player value your offer to them of gold if there aren't things they can spend it on.
Money is only valuable if you can buy stuff with it. So, if all it gives you is territory, that's kinda lame.
It says in the interview that's it's also used for things we're typically used to it being used for, like rushing units/buildings/etc. It won't just be for territory.
 
Historically, ballista's and catapults have been installed on oar-propelled ships
.

Historically, ancient galley/trireme warfare was primarily about ships trying to ram each other, and/or close for boarding actions where marines fought in melee combat.

Yes, you can install a ranged weapon, but that's not how they primarily fought in battle.

Thats like saying that rifles primarily fought in melee because you could fix a bayonet to them.
 
I like the "cost culture", but non-exclusive makes little sense to me. How can you be both an absolute monarchy and a democracy? How can you have both State religion and religious tolerance?
Mutual exclusivity is a key driver of making interesting strategic choices.

I'm guessing bonuses.. you aren't 'an absolute monarchy and a democracy' you have developed a society that gets the Benefits of an absolute monarchy and the benefits of a democracy.

(Which would be Very expensive.... And I think that is they Key Driver, they are normally mutually exclusive through cost.... perhaps a "revolution" will let you 'discard benefits' in one category in order to gain benefits in another.

ie England stops investing in 'Tyrrany' at 'Feudal monarch' and starts investing in 'Freedom'... they eventually get the benefits of Democracy and Feudal Monarchy

France keeps investing in 'Tyrrany' up to 'Absolute Monarch'... then they have a revolution essentially dumping all the benefits of ALL levels of 'Tyrrany' and putting some of that investment into 'Freedom' (so they get the benefits of Democracy but no benefits from the 'Tyrrany' line)

Cost can be a significant enough factor I think.

As for the "TYPE" of government, you can describe it based on the most advanced term. But England's "Democracy" doesn't give the same benefits/penalties as France's "Democracy".

Even galleys? Ugh, don't like this.
Also don't like the idea of naval units bombing very long distances inland. Nothing pre-ww2 should be able to get anything except a single coastal tile, and nothing except missile cruisers and aircraft should be able to bomb more than 2 tiles inland.
And no bombing over hills/mountains.
Well it was "Warships" so probably not Galleys
Frigates had a range of at least 2 in the video (remember so do archers)

Hmm, I'm a little worried. "Diplomacy" is not really a role for gold. Why should the other player value your offer to them of gold if there aren't things they can spend it on.
Money is only valuable if you can buy stuff with it. So, if all it gives you is territory, that's kinda lame.
City-State diplomacy (also if territory is only 1 hex/turn for your Empire... that use will be important)
But it appears you can rush buy.. possibly from the beginning (like in Civ Rev)


"No longer are diplomatic modifiers shown"
I hate this. Hate, hate, hate, hate. As discussed many times before.
Definitely agree....this is BAD
However, the problem is their diplomatic modifiers only apply to the AI (I assume)

Looks like we might also have transparency problems on the combat result front (see above).
I don't want to know "major victory expected", I want to know the probability of various outcomes.
That's assuming there is Probability... Notice it didn't say 'Major Victory Expected', it just said 'Major Victory'.

Or it could just be a reduced role for probability

so it could be
Total Victory=you Will kill the enemy with no losses
Major Victory=you Will kill the enemy with some losses
%Victory= you have a chance of killing the enemy
%Loss = the enemy has a chance of killing you
Major Defeat=the enemy Will kill you with some losses
Total Defeat=the enemy Will kill you with no losses

From your population? That seems odd.
Makes sense to me... science/tech=tested ideas... people get ideas and test them. 'Harvesting science' made little sense
Of course some population should be much better than others (average citizen = 1 beaker, Librarian=5 beakers)

This is weird. I think its very odd to have social policies improving military and commerce. This is what tech should be for.
+3 research per specialist
+1 Production for Workshops
+2 Commerce for towns
+1 Trade route
+25% Military production
+2 exp for all military units
etc.

All the civics improved Military, Commerce, Production, Culture, etc.

Also, if social policies are these kinds of things, then what has happened to actual governments policies?
I think they are subsumed in that... 'social policies' are essentially like Civics, except you choose between categories (how much you spend in each) as opposed to within a category

I read this as; advisors ARE the tutorial.
So, turn them off after the first game.
Well you might be able to set the 'level' of the advisors.. or possibly stop them from giving 'unsolicited' advice (they speak only when spoken to)
 
Hmm, I'm a little worried. "Diplomacy" is not really a role for gold. Why should the other player value your offer to them of gold if there aren't things they can spend it on.

Money is only valuable if you can buy stuff with it. So, if all it gives you is territory, that's kinda lame.
Hey, Ahriman:

Remember that strategic resources have finite unit production... in other words one horse can make only so many knight, one iron so many swordsmen, etc.

But watch the video, and you'll see a trading screen @ 35 seconds where the human player is about to trade some of his strategic resources to another civ, Egypt.

So, if you build up a lot of gold, or the AI does, you could use that to buy another civ's strategic resources, or at least part of them.

That's pretty significant in a game with limited units, is it not? Your opponent might think you only capable of bringing 6-8 units to bear, and with trades, you might be able to bring 9-12.
 
Cost can be a significant enough factor I think.
I'm not sure about this. The system needs to still work even if your culture income was extremely high.

It just doesn't make sense that you could simultaneously be getting high Tyranny and high Freedom bonuses.
Or high bonuses for religious solidarity, and bonuses for religious freedom.

Investing in high Tyranny should prevent you from getting high freedom.

But then we should be able to reverse this through revolution.

Well it was "Warships" so probably not Galleys
By "Galleys" I mean ancient era oared warship.
Including triremes. So yes, a galley is a warship.
[Remember that there are no more transport units; galley doesn't mean an unarmed Civ4 cargo unit.]

so rush buy may be in from beginning
Seems reasonable, as long as its inefficient.

Makes sense to me... science/tech=tested ideas... people get ideas and test them. 'Harvesting science' made little sense
Of course some population should be much better than others (average citizen = 1 beaker, Librarian=5 beakers)
But from a gameplay perspective, you get better science just by having more people. Even if those people are just peasants working on farms. By that logic India and China would be technological leaders.
[Hopefully buildings can still boost?]

I think they are subsumed in that... 'social policies' are essentially like Civics, except you choose between categories (how much you spend in each) as opposed to within a category
But the entire point of government policies is that they are mutually exclusive.
They determine who has the power and who has the decisions; democracy is different from theocracy is different from fascism is different from monarchy.
Free trade is different from mercantilism is different from communism.
Religious tolerance is different from religious unity, state church is different from decentralized church. Slavery is different from serfdom is different from freedom.

Well you might be able to set the 'level' of the advisors.. or possibly stop them from giving 'unsolicited' advice (they speak only when spoken to)
What I mean is; they have no gameplay impact. There is nothing that you lose except suggestions by turning them off.
 
So, if you build up a lot of gold, or the AI does, you could use that to buy another civ's strategic resources, or at least part of them.

That's pretty significant in a game with limited units, is it not? Your opponent might think you only capable of bringing 6-8 units to bear, and with trades, you might be able to bring 9-12.

You're missing my point.

Take the extreme case. Suppose the *only* thing you could do with gold was trade it in diplomacy.
Why would any other player ever accept gold in a diplomacy trade; why would it give up horses (valuable) in exchange for gold (not valuable)?
Would you trade with me for money if you couldn't use the money to buy any actual goods or services?
[If so, I have some GnuBux I just made in my printer that I will gladly trade with you for your stuff.]

Fortunately, it looks like you can still buy units and buildings with gold, so this is a non-issue.
 
ZOC - Zone of Conflict?

Like, you can move close to a enemy without atack?
ZOC = Zone of Control.

It means units project a form of control over zones around them. Typically for naval units that means that any enemy within a certain range of the vessel itself will be attacked if it tries to pass (otherwise you'd need a solid line of vessels to block an enemy from getting out). In this case it means that if you're at war, any unit of the enemy in adjecent tiles will be slowed down to 1 move/turn. This is to prevent a fast unit (like e.g. a knight) to sneak rush past you and attack a weaker unit like archers that your front unit is protecting.
 
You're missing my point.

Take the extreme case. Suppose the *only* thing you could do with gold was trade it in diplomacy.
Why would any other player ever accept gold in a diplomacy trade; why would it give up horses (valuable) in exchange for gold (not valuable)?
Would you trade with me for money if you couldn't use the money to buy any actual goods or services?
[If so, I have some GnuBux I just made in my printer that I will gladly trade with you for your stuff.]

Fortunately, it looks like you can still buy units and buildings with gold, so this is a non-issue.

Gotcha, thanks for repeating. If we can early rush buy, that will certainly be tremendous... albeit with proper gameplay balance.
 
I'm not sure about this. The system needs to still work even if your culture income was extremely high.

It just doesn't make sense that you could simultaneously be getting high Tyranny and high Freedom bonuses.
Or high bonuses for religious solidarity, and bonuses for religious freedom.
Investing in high Tyranny should prevent you from getting high freedom.

I disagree (although Freedom+Tyranny might not be actual categories)
I can see significant Synergies though, and increased costs

It can work for high culture income if the costs of going up multiple paths is significantly higher than going up a few paths


By "Galleys" I mean ancient era oared warship.
Including triremes. So yes, a galley is a warship.
[Remember that there are no more transport units; galley doesn't mean an unarmed Civ4 cargo unit.]
Well it was put there to make navy actually important, and it is probably a good thing (note: they have separate Range attack and normal Strength, so a "Range 1: Ranged attack" is possible... although a Galley should be able to equal range an Archer)

But from a gameplay perspective, you get better science just by having more people. Even if those people are just peasants working on farms. By that logic India and China would be technological leaders.
[Hopefully buildings can still boost?]
India and China Were technological leaders until a few hundred years ago (and Eurasia technologically lead Africa which technologically led the Americas which technologically led Australia)

I'm sure Social Policies, Buildings, etc. will all have an impact.

There is sure to be some Trade off for producing more science or producing more gold/culture/production

But the entire point of government policies is that they are mutually exclusive.
They determine who has the power and who has the decisions
This is Civ, the player is the only one with power or making decisions
; democracy is different from theocracy is different from fascism is different from monarchy.
Free trade is different from mercantilism is different from communism.
Religious tolerance is different from religious unity, state church is different from decentralized church. Slavery is different from serfdom is different from freedom.

You are looking at it in terms of labels/experience of individuals. Think of the 'imperial benefits/costs'.

Modern Democracies have some strengths (such as avoiding the rule of the mob) that early societies would have said are Tyrranical in Nature. (ie the Roman republic had benefits of Republic and Dictatorship... because their society appointed a dictator during times of war)

Many European "democracies" are also "monarchies"... If a 'monarch' provides benefit to their 'gameplay' they are getting it both ways..
You've heard of the "Imperial Presidency" I assume.

It partially depends on what labels they put on the social policies....
But you could have
Free Speech-Police States
or
Emancipated-Feudal societies
or
Barbaric State Property for that matter
in Civ 4 and people worked around it.
 
"No longer are diplomatic modifiers shown"
I hate this. Hate, hate, hate, hate. As discussed many times before.
Black box systems are just frustrating, and lead to an inability to make meaningful diplomatic strategy.
"but we wanted there to be more mystery in the interaction"
Ugh.... transparency is a good thing![/url]

I think there can and SHOULD be a bit mystery when dealing with other great and powerful leaders. I mean if you KNOW for 100% sure that some leader likes you, as you were his brother, how can he ever attack you? Or if he would attack you, how does the game explain why he attacked you? I mean mystery is kind of good thing here.

When you add some transparency, you take away some imagination.

I don't want to know "major victory expected", I want to know the probability of various outcomes.[/url]

Well thats EXACTLY what i wanna see! I DONT wanna see precise odds like "78.98% change of winning here" because nobody cannot give you that kind of numbers while in battlefield, i mean NOBODY. So getting rid of those exact percentages is realistic and it also takes away the stupid science before the battle when you see the exact numbers and start deciding what to attack with what.

Removing exact numbers from combat means you need more skill and experience in the battlefield, not forgetting the famous gut feeling. It takes away the fun when you know the exact odds of each battle.

Again, when you add some transparency, you take away some imagination.
 
The social policies quotation in full:
As players accumulate culture over time, they're able to spend it to adopt social policies. There are 10 branches to select from, most of them requiring the player be in a particular era to utilize. Each branch is themed around a different aspect of the game. For example, the early-game "honor" branch provides bonuses to one's military, while the later "commerce" branch improves one's gold output.

With the policies system, we wanted to keep the feel of mixing and matching to construct one's government that was part of Civ IV, but we also wanted to instill a sense of forward momentum. Rather than having to switch out of one policy to adopt another, you build upon the policies already unlocked. The thought process we want to promote is "What cool new effect do I want?" rather than the feeling of needing to perform detailed analysis to determine if switching is a good idea.

The cultural victory is now tied to unlocking a certain amount of the policies tree. The policies give quite a bit of punch to the cultural side of the game, in addition to being a viable path to victory.
 
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