SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

BornInCantaloup · Jun 22, 2010

Thank you, Bugg, that's a nice relief !!!
I can't handle that save with calm, yet :lol:

"As if it's an autosave" ... Yes, I meant from the very beginning of the turn.
We can also save in the middle of a turn (after taking actions), then upload, then download and keep playing from there, right ?
Anyways, that's why I was surprised...

So...
If we're not in Pacifism... we're in OR... for which we have use right now... and my concern was a silly one !! :goodjob:

I'll leave Civ for tonight.

Thanks again

Bugg123 · Jun 22, 2010

Turns played.

Everything OK. Got a GS!

Did this for Feud:

Got hit by a demand from Toku:

Other than that nothing, really... I think.

Time for bed

EDIT: Added updated (still not 100% correct) testgame

Bugg123 · Jun 23, 2010

A few pointers before the plan:

Techpath going forward : Complete PP->Music->Compass (or compass first if we need it.. need to check)->Optics->Nationalism, add in Construction if it's not available in 3 turns? Or just hold Music untill someone has Drama/Lit ?

Army: We want 1 Trireme, 5 (or 6?) Galleys, ~4 spies, ~5Catapults and ~15 maces still? (In the testgame, that's plenty of troops) (8-10 maces+spies for Aksoum (keeps moving towards spain), 5-7 maces+catapults for Gondar, catches up in aksoum and boats over to spain later).

Diplo: I'm assuming we want to comply as much as possible with Sal+Meh, anything in particular other than that?

Hopefully Tao will spread in Delhi so I can start a monastery. Will chop some into MoM, and start roading to Gondar. Do we build monasteries within 1 turn (which will produce som moneyoverflow (~70h + some gold), or within 2 turns which produces ~60h overflow)

Switching to Theo for 5 turns : Will get to that once construction is avail (get 2-3Maces and 2-4 Catapults out over those turns, hopefully). Time with turns where Uni can't be whipped anyways.

dingding · Jun 23, 2010

Hey guys:

Congratulations for the score! By far you're 200 points better than the best rival of the SGOTM!
I did think HG is powerful, but not in this way

There are just two things I'd like to mention:

1) Why is the Galley still there instead of shipping the chariot to the barbarian island? If there is only thing I think it's strategic, it's to know what kind of barbarians there are on the fur. That makes a great difference in the choice of tech path.

2) Converting to Theocracy for about 10 turns now would be appropriate. For one thing, the other AIs who favor it have all converted; for another, a 5-exp unit is 20%-30% more powerful than a 3-exp one, even 50%-100% for the Catapults/Tre.

Bugg123 · Jun 23, 2010

Hi dingding

Back?

AFAIK Galley is there right now to ship 2 HMs back to the mainland. I think we'll ship a leftover spy down to the island at some point after vassalizing Zara in the not too distant future. I think techs we want right now won't change based on what barbs we see (through Nationalism at least), so that'll work out ok, hopefully.

Theocracy for a while after whipping in Libs is ok, and that's not too far off either. How many turns depends on when we can whip in Unis and start OU, I guess.

dingding · Jun 23, 2010

No, I'm not back for playing. Just for some kinda “Consulting"

Chariot has 2 moves which make it ensure its own safety during the exploration. And it's useless out there right now. Spy has only 1 move, we have to wait for it, it may not be needed in the war, etc. Apparently Chariot now >>> Spy.

The Galley alone takes 15 turns to get to the island. Given that the research right now is very fast, some techs can be done during these 15 turns and it will soon be needed to reorient the tech path.

Libs can be whipped right now and Theocracy can be converted now or in 2 turns (add OR bonus to overflow). During Theocracy, the pops can be grown to the level at which Univ can be whipped. Then OR, whip.

dingding · Jun 23, 2010

Double post

Bugg123 · Jun 23, 2010

Libs can be whipped right now and Theocracy can be converted now or in 2 turns (add OR bonus to overflow). During Theocracy, the pops can be grown to the level at which Univ can be whipped. Then OR, whip.

That's the plan, yeah. When remaining cities can whip Lib, convert to Theo next turn. And grow to Unis.

We'll see about galley. Sending it now (After HMs) means ~10-12 turns sooner to barbisland and that we need to build 1 more galley. I'm open to a vote on this

kossin · Jun 23, 2010

@dingding
Content de te savoir en mode surveillance!

I'm not so sure about the Chariot.

If that is indeed the Fur island, then the cities have been there from t0 and there are 2+ barb workers going about and making improvements+roads meaning a Chariot would die trying to look at the first city.

Second, as I said, I'm almost certain the fur is under the second city... the first city might be natural for all I know.

If anything, we should have one of the 2 desert cities get a spy instead of a HM, that will give us the most info.

@Bugg123
Well played, I'll look in the test game this evening/tomorrow and try to fix it again.

Bugg123 · Jun 23, 2010

@kossin:

If you want to put that effort into it, I'd appreciate that. At least we'd get it 100% as far as planning ahead goes.

If not... We're mostly whipping in infra and Units. Vijay whips every 3rd turn or so, Pata 2pop whips when possible and Bombay+Calcutta just whip when they can. Infra is whipped when possible and everything with as much overflow as possible (phew..)

So even if testgame is a bit off, the actual whipping won't be much off, and can be adapted, I think.

Anyways.. if everyone wants to do some tests before answering my points for clarification earlier, I'll hold off on the actual plan. It should be pretty straightforward in theory

1. Workers plantation+road, and chop+roads.
2. 3 remaining cities that lack libs whip them, then we go Theo untill it's time for Universities.
3. Pata+Bombay+Vijay get an army (of the size stated above) together, whipping as much as possilbe (How much anger can we accept in Pata? It builds quickly....)
4. Calcutta gets ships and spies (Varan can do a spy or 2 or HMs, assuming we want to whip the Uni there soonish, which I do at least)
5. Delhi Builds monasteries to within 2 (or 1...) turn to be whipped into OU, then builds MoM. (Hopefully Tao spread is successful, if not we're not building more TM right now...)
5. Army is split in 2 and sent towards Delhi and Calcutta for rendez-vous. Don't think this set will need anything more than that.
6. 3 spies (is enough, if we're only revolting Aksoum, I think) transported to Aksoum when ready (by galley).
7. Tech
8. Diplo

Duckweed · Jun 23, 2010

@dingding
Feel free to go back when you have interest back.

Our luck on GP type continues, will it last until we get another GE? :lol:

@bugg123

1. I have thought about the tech path again and found that we can only get the Construction trade from Justinian if he started researching it right after Math 4 turns ago and he won't be faster than Zara. Unless we can wait for the trade from Zara 9 turns later (Not sure whether he is willing to trade construction away since many leader won't trade it away), it's safe to research construction next. It's better to see how many units we can gather 9 turns later and then make the decision. Set the slider to minimum to finish PP this turn and resume 100% next turn for either Construction->Compass->Optics->Nat or Compass->Optics->Nat.

2. City build -- we can whip most of the cities this turn for 1 HM, 2 Libs, Uni, and Forge. Var can start spies next.

3. Civic -- I think T179 is the best time to switch to Theology, since all cities have gotten and absorbed the OR bonus and they need a few turns to grow back for next whip, the only city suffered is Delhi and that's ~5H per turn. On the other hand, we can produce quite a few level 3 units in 5 turns.

4. War plan -- Send the trireme to scout Zara's cities and kill the barbarian in the way. I guess Zara's man troop should stay around the Wheat/Cow city. In that case, we can spread out units into 3 stacks --
6 galleys to capital and unload 5 macemans to his capital and 3 cats + 4 macemans to the Cow/Horse city, the rest macemans and cats (~6 + 2) march to the Wheat/Cow city. 3 spies are a little dangerous if we got the bad luck, usually I use 4.

Bugg123 · Jun 23, 2010

Our luck on GP type continues, will it last until we get another GE?

We're planning a GE next

@spies:
With our luck, we could probably do with just one

If we want 4, that's fine.

1, Trireme, 4 Spies, 5 Cats, 6 Galleys, 15 Maces.

We're delaying Music untill someone can research it, then?

Will start looking at a plan, but will also wait for kossin's final testgame to see if it makes a difference.

BornInCantaloup · Jun 23, 2010

If we do 3 stacks, then we're going to split catapults in 2, right (Gondar and Lalibella) ? Then maybe we want 1 more catapult. I find we're light on siege units. Maybe I use them the wrong way, but I lose a LOT of them when I go at war (I don't bombard... never ! Almost :goodjob:

)

Galleys : I would think 5 is enough. We move 10 units at a time, so go forth, back and forth and all our units are on the other side. Landing 10 units is enough to take a city, especially if we wait a few turns before attacking (time to bombard).

Spies : 4 can't harm. Although I would bet 3 is safe. We will only revolt Aksum, right ?

Techs : I forgot (again !) about Construction... I really don't want to research it :lol:

Hum... yeah, I guess that will come after PP. I won't complain, promise ! (But I'll be glad when we have that other watery tech).
@ Music : I don't see the need to rush while the MoM isn't completed and the AIs can't research it.

Bugg123 · Jun 23, 2010

Ok.. tentative plan:

Spoiler :

It could be risky to delay MoM here (depends), so maybe we delay OU a few turns to finish up MoM as well? Could also cut research and save up gold waiting for OU (when researching Nationalism). May have to add Music.

Not too sure about all the worker micro, really, but well... the plan accomplishes what we want in the timeframe you wanted, so I dunno. Could Spread Hindu to Banga rather than Pata/Varan to start HMs there over Harbor...

kossin · Jun 23, 2010

Re: Patali

I think we should use some of the food surplus to keep running an Engineer here. The more GE points we have the best chance we have to get one to rush UN. Moreover, we really need to find another use than whipping for all the food surplus as it will be unhappy forever otherwise (would be a fantastic GT site).

Currently working on updating test game and will check the plan afterwards.

Duckweed · Jun 23, 2010

@bugg123

T177 -- should also whip 2 libs in Bangalore and Hyde, so that the overflow also get the OR bonus next turn. Delhi continues on monastery (IIRC it won't finish it this turn) and switched to MoM next turn. Also don't whip any units this and next turn since we are anticipating theology bonus.

Worker move -- I'd send 1 worker to connect the road from Pat 1st, 2 workers to road eastern of Delhi to Zara's new city and do the forest chop around. Don't finish any chop before OU is available. The 2 workers in Cal can do the chop N of Delhi after finishing the plantation of Incense (Schedule the time so that they can finish the chop at the time we start OU).

Units -- 9 macemans and 3 cats to the eastern border of Delhi, others to eastern border of Cal.

Edit -- HM to Madras is better than Vij since Vij will keep on units for quite a long time and won't be affected by religion.
-- There are also a few 1g available, adjust the resource trade to get them.

I guess those will change the plan quite a lot.

Questions
1. how many macemans can you get at T186? This will determines whether we need to research construction ourselves.
2. I saw you were whipping 3 univs in T187, is this turn the earliest turn for whipping any univ? If not, I'd switch back to OR earlier. Edit: whipping all univs in the turns of slowest site is fine.

No one has Calendar atm and no one(except Toku) has the chance of getting a GE, so MoM is pretty safe after we free the hand from OU.

Agree to hire 1 Eng in Pat.

kossin · Jun 23, 2010

Well that was a headache.

Test game is up to date, but there's just one catch:

>>>You have to manually add back (via WB) the Forge in Vijay next turn (T178)<<<
Everything else should be ~100% the same I think, or at least easily manipulable via WB.

I'm going to bed and will check the plan tomorrow. I agree with Duckweed that MoM is in no danger atm so prioritize Oxford.

Bugg123 · Jun 24, 2010

Duckweed said:
@bugg123

T177 -- should also whip 2 libs in Bangalore and Hyde, so that the overflow also get the OR bonus next turn. Delhi continues on monastery (IIRC it won't finish it this turn) and switched to MoM next turn. Also don't whip any units this and next turn since we are anticipating theology bonus.

Whipping one in Pati only to keep at 2-pop whip. Can hold it if you want, but it'll delay the last mace from Pati enough that our attack is 1 turn delayed, I think. Will look at it.
Will check libs in Banga+Hyde. Very little overflow, + Banga regrows T179 regardless.
Continuing monasteries to within 1 turn means we also whip in some cash. About 78h + 10g vs 62h. We're getting more hammers by building MoM rather than whipping cash, overall.

Duckweed said:
Worker move -- I'd send 1 worker to connect the road from Pat 1st, 2 workers to road eastern of Delhi to Zara's new city and do the forest chop around. Don't finish any chop before OU is available. The 2 workers in Cal can do the chop N of Delhi after finishing the plantation of Incense (Schedule the time so that they can finish the chop at the time we start OU).

Will test, and change plan.

Duckweed said:
Units -- 9 macemans and 3 cats to the eastern border of Delhi, others to eastern border of Cal.

4. War plan -- Send the trireme to scout Zara's cities and kill the barbarian in the way. I guess Zara's man troop should stay around the Wheat/Cow city. In that case, we can spread out units into 3 stacks --
6 galleys to capital and unload 5 macemans to his capital and 3 cats + 4 macemans to the Cow/Horse city, the rest macemans and cats (~6 + 2) march to the Wheat/Cow city. 3 spies are a little dangerous if we got the bad luck, usually I use 4.

We need to decide on how many units we want where. And which cities to take. War should be prepared at end of this turnset for attack on T190, I think.

9+3 on eastern border of Delhi seems a lot for Horse+Cow city. (Leaving us with only 6+2 to go for Aksoum+Wheat+cow+iron (If we want all 3)).

Duckweed said:
Edit -- HM to Madras is better than Vij since Vij will keep on units for quite a long time and won't be affected by religion.
-- There are also a few 1g available, adjust the resource trade to get them.

I guess those will change the plan quite a lot.

If we're making Madras into a 3rd GP-farm (and not Banga), I think we should use Banga for HM production and thus put Hindu there first.
Haven't looked at the resource deals yet. Will do it and post suggestions in final plan.

Duckweed said:
Questions
1. how many macemans can you get at T186? This will determines whether we need to research construction ourselves.
2. I saw you were whipping 3 univs in T187, is this turn the earliest turn for whipping any univ? If not, I'd switch back to OR earlier. Edit: whipping all univs in the turns of slowest site is fine.

No one has Calendar atm and no one(except Toku) has the chance of getting a GE, so MoM is pretty safe after we free the hand from OU.

Agree to hire 1 Eng in Pat.

So.. keep Pata at minimum size 4, then?.
If we start cats at T186, I don't think we can get them in position to war T190. Spending 1 turn to finish construction > later war, no?
Also, getting to start a cat in Pata allows for only 2-pop whips there. Overflow will eventually lead to a 1-pop whip of mace in Pata (I think).

Bugg123 · Jun 24, 2010

@kossin:

Good job, appreciate the effort. Will use the new save to play through test again and update.

EDIT: Only problem is Meh+Izzy+Zara dow us T178 in the new save

BornInCantaloup · Jun 24, 2010

Thanks for the testgame, Kossin.
That's appreciated, yes, as says Bugg.

Bugg123 said:
Also, getting to start a cat in Pata allows for only 2-pop whips there. Overflow will eventually lead to a 1-pop whip of mace in Pata (I think).

Maybe that would be the time where we overflow into a Temple ? Especially if it happens after war declaration. Then it wouldn't be a concern.
We will need all the happy buildings available in Pata if we want to run specialists (--> Not only Delhi needs Taoism, also Pata).

Post war note :
We could consider getting Theatre when Izzie connects her dye. Or when we connect it, if we capture a dye city.

I'll look into your plan later today, Bugg

SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

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