SGOTM 11 - Barley Demons

I'm really interested in a timeframe for a diplo victory.
Share the testsave and I might even have a go also. :)

I can see all the reasons for culture, but some part of me still likes the Diplomacy route.
 
Ok. I have a test map at T122. It's pretty close to where we are, but there are some differences.

1. We have Taoism, instead of Confusionism. Not sure why this was. I gave us CoL and Confusion Holy City, but then it made me choose a religion. I chose Tao, and then the Tao Holy City went to Bombay, so I decided just to erase Confusion from us. Not sure if it will give a religion when we get Philo or not, but if you get Philo first, you can just World Builder a Confusion Holy City.

2. Mathematics is already complete. I teched it while I was going through just trying to get to the right date. I thought I could just take it away from us at the end and no problem, but the problem is that now when you choose to research it, it already has enough beakers in it so it will complete in 1 turn. This could be a bit of a problem. Does anyone know if there's a way to take away progress in a tech in World Builder, because there should be.

3. Also wasn't paying close enough attention to Vijay and Varan building Granaries. They have a few more hammers in their granaries than they do in real life, but I don't think this will matter that much. Again I thought I could just giving the cities a granary would cancel any hammers stored into a granary build, and by taking it away then we'd have a clean slate, but no such luck. It remembers progress toward building.

4. A few of the cottages/hamlets/villages, don't have the correct number of turns to growth, but they're all close enough. Shouldn't factor in.

5. No workboats and no real neighbors. We have Pacal and Stalin on either side of our continent instead of Saladin and Izzy. It can definitely effect gameplay, but how much not sure. Also I didn't add work boats because exploration won't be realistic. If you want to simulate meeting someone, just world builder a work boat next to one of the people you haven't met yet.

Could have been a lot more meticulous and fixed most of these. If it will make too much of a difference let me know and I can try to fix it from one of my saves.

Here's the file:
 

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Awesome work SilentConfusion! :goodjob: :goodjob: :king:

Yeah Mathematics is weird, but working around it won't be hard. I will remove it in worldbuilder, then when it's time to research it (after Poly/Mono) just run gold instead for those turns, then remove the gold in worldbuilder. I'm sure I can figure out something logical with the religions, too.

The GPP counts in Vijay and Bombay are correct, which is important and tough to get right. Great work!

Now going to see if I can run all the way to a culture victory - on Epic speed - in one evening. :)
 
Awesome work SilentConfusion! :goodjob: :goodjob: :king:

Yeah Mathematics is weird, but working around it won't be hard. I will remove it in worldbuilder, then when it's time to research it (after Poly/Mono) just run gold instead for those turns, then remove the gold in worldbuilder. I'm sure I can figure out something logical with the religions, too.

The GPP counts in Vijay and Bombay are correct, which is important and tough to get right. Great work!

Now going to see if I can run all the way to a culture victory - on Epic speed - in one evening. :)

Oh, yeah, forgot to mention the GPP in Bombay and Vijay. Since I knew they were important I calculated them out with 12 turns left before end date and added an Ironworks and an AWat to the cities to make sure it came out exact and then deleted them at the end. I look forward to your result. I might try playing one myself, but I'm not very experience with either Victory Condition.
 
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I'll post details tomorrow.
 

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You...you...contrarian!
I know!
Why do you think I've been keeping quiet for so long?!?

I didn't want it to seem like I was just opposing the team majority at every opportunity. :blush:

I for one would greatly enjoy a T-Hawk culture vs. pocketbeetle diplo showdown....
You mean I've got to beat T-Hawk at a culture victory?

Sweet Mother of Jesus, I've just seen the date.
1490 AD.

Hmm. I might be able to free up some time.
But anyone else who wants to try also, please do.
 
Oh, another thing I couldn't get right is: in the real game all of our cities had a +3 happiness for "We enjoy our City" or something like that. This didn't happen in the test game. Does anyone know what causes the people love their city? Thus the happiness figures aren't right.

Just playing through it, I noticed we're not in Slavery, so you have to switch. And I just figured out what makes people love their cities. :) They love Representation. I forgot about civics, switching to Rep/Slav is fortunately 0 turns of anarchy for us. Yay SPI.

EDIT: I think I'll give a Diplo victory a try, if just to acquaint myself with the issues of diplo victories. I think 1490 sounds pretty fast for a Culture Victory. Does that count saving 4 Great People or were all Artists used? I look forward to the details.
 
Looking in the HoF chart for these game settings, the quickest Cultural Victory is 1708. T-Hawks time of 1490 blows that out of the water. Looking at the Diplo Victory chart for the same general settings is 1360, but only the top entry is faster than T-Hawks time.
 
Looking in the HoF for these game settings, the quickest Cultural Victory is 1708.

I think that's more of a question of who in their right mind plays HOF games for culture on Epic speed? :) Quick and Marathon have specific advantages, but the Epic speed game is exactly the same as Normal except for taking 50% longer real time. The Normal speed chart has a 1530 AD entry which is right on par with my result.

Also, why in the world are there a whole bunch of culture games as Japan for Normal speed on that page? Was that a GOTM challenge or something?


Looking at the Diplo Victory for the same general settings is 1360, but only the top entry is faster than T-Hawks time.

That pretty much sums up our quandary. A perfect diplo game will be faster than culture, but the average diplo game will not.
 
So here's my notes from the test game. I worldbuildered the religions back to the right ones to avoid confusion.

Researched Poly-Mono as planned, adopting Org Rel and adopted Confucianism. I removed Math in the world builder, then to simulate researching it, I started putting beakers into Theology to waste them (since it would get bulbed anyway) then re-gave myself Math once we had 585 beakers there.

As planned, whipped a temple at Vijay and bulbed Theology. Researched Alphabet, and bulbed Philo with a scientist from Delhi in 185 BC. Researched straight through Aesthetics-Literature-Music next, trading for Sailing and Iron Working and Monarchy.

Whipped settlers out of Pataliputra and Varanasi for two more cities. Hanging Gardens in 425 BC, boosting 7 cities.

Barb galleys were a big problem indeed. Vijayanagara's pretty much sole purpose in life was to whip galleys to kill them.

I bounced back and forth between Slavery/OR and Caste/Pacifism several times. In my first trip into Caste/Pacifism, Vijay hired 6 scientists to make GP #3 a scientist for an academy in Delhi. This was to intentionally delay the Great Engineer since we didn't need it yet. GP #4 was indeed the Engineer to clock the Sistine Chapel in Varanasi. GP #5 was a Merchant from my Agra (western flood plains city) who settled in Bombay mostly for the food.

Reached Music in 160 AD (Great Artist settled in Bombay), largely by hiring Rep-boosted Merchants in many cities. Thanks to gold-beaker skew, direct cash production is more valuable than direct beaker production.

Cut back to Slavery / Org Rel briefly to whip out another round of infrastructure (granaries and lighthouses in new cities, a couple courthouses, and even the first Confucian Academy in Varanasi because it needed the happy). Then back to Caste/Pacifism to keep Varanasi stoked to the max. Bombay built the Parthenon. Delhi built the Apostolic Palace - since a culture civ builds so many religious buildings (the Confucian cathedrals too), it easily more than pays for itself in hammers.

I expanded out to 9 cities total, the 9th being on the sugar island as you can see in the pic above. Calcutta played an important role: it worked and grew three cottages for Varanasi and one for Delhi. I really like this trick for culture games and I suggest we built a city in Calcutta's spot in the real game. Pataliputra also worked and grew several plains cottages for Bombay to take later.

After Music, research went Calendar, Currency (traded), Civil Service, Drama, Paper (Delhi built Sankore), Education. Traded for Metal Casting and Machinery and Engineering and Guilds and Banking but none of those were important. I built no forges until late, only a couple libraries, universities only late for culture (no Oxford), and definitely no markets or banks.

GP #6 came as another Scientist (at about 50/50 odds, Varanasi had run 2 scientists and 2 artists while not in Caste), who bulbed towards Education. GP #7 artist from Varanasi settled. All the rest of the Great People were Artists, 9 all total including Music. I got them from several multiple cities - besides Varanasi, also one each from the northwest clams site and west flood plains site. Bombay also spawned a second engineer later (about 60% odds) who rushed Versailles for culture. One Artist started the 1-man Golden Age when the math worked out that he couldn't help the win date (Delhi and Bombay were tied and he couldn't speed up both cities.) Three Artists bombed in Varanasi at the end.

Liberalism -> Divine Right in 640 AD. Islam was my 5th religion. My India founded Confucianism, Christianity, Taoism, Islam, and got a random spread of Hinduism in one city. That is the most likely case for the real game - we can found four religions and can probably get one by spread from the AIs.

I stopped research right after Liberalism. I went Uni Suffrage with 100% cash slider to rush missionaries and cathedrals, staying in Slavery/Org Rel to also whip temples. I researched Nationalism at 0% science (about 30 turns total) all by Sankore and cities building Research.

1140 AD I have 12 of 15 cathedrals completed. Back to Caste/Pacifism for the last time, plus I took Representation for a short time to research Printing Press at 0% science, then back to Suffrage once Taj completed for the Golden Age town hammers.

Zara declared war on me in 1375 AD and bought Tokugawa in. I didn't feel like fighting it so just worldbuildered us back to peace. I had just traded for Gunpowder so winning the war would have been easy. It would have slowed culture by just a few turns at most.

Attached is a package of several saves if anyone wants to see more of how I did it.


Does that count saving 4 Great People or were all Artists used? I look forward to the details.

This I forgot about. I used all the artists. Saving those artists for Eldine would indeed cost about 20 turns (100 years) on the finish date.
 

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Good writeup on an impressive date.

Given the SGOTM restrictions and conditions, I suspect our date will be later, but this is a great proof-of-concept that cultural can be competitive.

The minimalism of just 9 cities is also appealing--less micro means less RL time spent playing.

I suspect we'd probably get attacked in the actual game too, and maybe we could count on a couple of Great Generals from that toward the Eldine requirements.

Another difference is, of course, the scouting and dealing with the location of fur in this game, but that's impossible to predict at this point.

Thanks T-Hawk; this is a big help.

Pocketbeetle, are you attempting a diplomatic counter-game?
 
Also, why in the world are there a whole bunch of culture games as Japan for Normal speed on that page? Was that a GOTM challenge or something?

This is from the second game of the 10-game Challenge Series. This is actually one of the ones I completed for that series. It was Tokugawa on Global Highlands, supposedly an unlikely combination for a Culture Victory.

Good write up on your game. I especially like how we're using our SPI trait and the Pyramids to speed up our culture run by civic switching, rush buying, and Rep teching while on the Culture slider.

As Compromise said, when we do get in a war we may want to keep it going until we get 1 or 2 GGs so we don't have to use other Great People. Perhaps a defensive war with Zara (especially if he declares) until we've killed enough of his troops to gain a few GGs.
 
Pocketbeetle, are you attempting a diplomatic counter-game?

We're now half-way through the game (closing 23 August), so we shouldn't wait any longer than this weekend for pb's diplo test. We've got a solid victory condition test from T-Hawk, so we need to get some turns played because I'm quite sure the devil will be in the detail of securing our access to the required luxuries.
 
I'd also like to propose an adjustment to the culture plan. (Besides the already-mentioned adjustment of going Poly-Mono before Mathematics, since bulbing Christianity is essential and the Hanging Gardens is optional.)

In my test game, I wasn't impressed with Varanasi's culture performance. It was a good 15k culture behind the other two cities by the end of the game. It didn't have enough cottages, only 8. It never maxed out as a monster Great Artist farm either, largely because I kept whipping its population into cathedrals.

I'd like to propose making Varanasi a separate Great Artist farm, and building the third legendary city somewhere in the flood-plains area. I think the best spot is the plains forest 3W of Pataliputra. This gets rice and 6 flood plains for food, and most importantly 17 cottages! And Pataliputra can work and grow 6 of the cottages for the legendary city. This also fits well with an overall dotmap, with another city on the north peninsula for clams and one more on the western tip.

This means we should get the city started ASAP; Patali might want to start the settler right now and whip it from size 4 to 2. If growing to 6 and triple-whipping from 6 to 3 comes in within a couple turns, that's okay too.
 
I'd also like to propose an adjustment to the culture plan. (Besides the already-mentioned adjustment of going Poly-Mono before Mathematics, since bulbing Christianity is essential and the Hanging Gardens is optional.)

In my test game, I wasn't impressed with Varanasi's culture performance. It was a good 15k culture behind the other two cities by the end of the game. It didn't have enough cottages, only 8. It never maxed out as a monster Great Artist farm either, largely because I kept whipping its population into cathedrals.

I'd like to propose making Varanasi a separate Great Artist farm, and building the third legendary city somewhere in the flood-plains area. I think the best spot is the plains forest 3W of Pataliputra. This gets rice and 6 flood plains for food, and most importantly 17 cottages! And Pataliputra can work and grow 6 of the cottages for the legendary city. This also fits well with an overall dotmap, with another city on the north peninsula for clams and one more on the western tip.

This means we should get the city started ASAP; Patali might want to start the settler right now and whip it from size 4 to 2. If growing to 6 and triple-whipping from 6 to 3 comes in within a couple turns, that's okay too.

Hmmm. My worry is that
1) Pataliaputra's lag was partially due to being founded later (and thus a new city is not going to solve that)
2) The proposed cottage city has food for cottages but no production save the marble tile . So it will have to whip cathedrals, or rushbuy them (rushbuy sounds bad since we will have all cathedral doublers, which boost whipping but not buying), or wait for towns and use US.

I'm curious enough to run another attempt from the test save just to see if it really helps, but unfortunately I'm swamped with work and cannot at least until next weekend.
 
Hmmm. My worry is that
1) Pataliaputra's lag was partially due to being founded later (and thus a new city is not going to solve that)
2) The proposed cottage city has food for cottages but no production save the marble tile . So it will have to whip cathedrals, or rushbuy them (rushbuy sounds bad since we will have all cathedral doublers, which boost whipping but not buying), or wait for towns and use US.

I'm curious enough to run another attempt from the test save just to see if it really helps, but unfortunately I'm swamped with work and cannot at least until next weekend.

I think T-Hawk was saying that Varanasi was lagging not Pataliaputra. And Varanasi didn't have cottages and was instead running artists, so using a separate cottage city that can get slider culture and then be bombed. I agree that it might be faster and with all those floodplains the cottages will grow faster due to being able to work more sooner. Production will be an issue there, but whipping and regrowing should still work enough cottages to equal Varanasi's artists, I think. Is the Sistine Chapel worth it?
 
Yes, Varanasi lagged as a culture city while trying to also be a Great Artist farm.

Lack of production in a culture city is really not so much a problem. In my experience, rushbuying cathedrals really is the right thing to do, resource doubler be damned. Also US towns are pretty helpful indeed, 10 to 15 hammers really does add up for a culture city.

The other answer is the Apostolic Palace. Temple-monastery-cathedral is +6 hammers. I think we should build it in Delhi, chopping forests towards it. I did in my test game and I think it easily paid back its hammer cost.


Is the Sistine Chapel worth it?

Are ye daft, man? It's the #1 wonder for a culture win. One little-known factor is that the Sistine bonus to religious buildings gets the 1000 year doubling (based on the building, not Sistine itself.) Build a Confucian temple in 1 AD, and Sistine gives it +10 culture starting in 1000 AD (regardless of when you complete Sistine.) This goes for monasteries and cathedrals too (a speedy culture win never sniffs Sci Method), plus the 10 base culture of Sistine itself, plus the specialist bonus.

The plan is to rush Sistine with the Great Engineer coming from Bombay.
 
Yes, Varanasi lagged as a culture city while trying to also be a Great Artist farm.

Lack of production in a culture city is really not so much a problem. In my experience, rushbuying cathedrals really is the right thing to do, resource doubler be damned. Also US towns are pretty helpful indeed, 10 to 15 hammers really does add up for a culture city.

The other answer is the Apostolic Palace. Temple-monastery-cathedral is +6 hammers. I think we should build it in Delhi, chopping forests towards it. I did in my test game and I think it easily paid back its hammer cost.

I am learning a lot. Seems like that happens a lot when T-Hawk's around.

Are ye daft, man?
I think the question-mark is there for politeness. :) I'm embarrassed :blush: to say that I didn't know that the Sistine Chapel gave culture to religious buildings as well as specialists and I had no idea that the AP gave hammers. So I hereby retract all of my statements about wonders that I have made or will make. In my single player games, I irrationally shun world wonders in an attempt to improve my fundamentals. I guess since I place restrictions on myself when I play that's why I like the Realms Beyond Adventures. But I guess I need to go back and read my Civilopedia and learn some more.
 
More good discussion.

It sounds like the test game has already served its purpose by helping fine tune T-Hawk's culture approach to this map. I think the approach is strong, especially with the adjustments T-Hawk has mentioned.

Let's decide about 24 hours from this post on diplo or culture.

Diplo: If anyone is able and willing to post either some more thoughts or testgame results on a diplo victory, please do so soon. Maybe some time will be freed up for a roster member or two here now that we know it won't be USA vs England in the 2010 cup final.... :(

Culture: T-Hawk's game, with thoughts, gives us a good baseline plan. Any thoughts on how the actual game will differ? Acquiring great people, exploration, and managing relations with neighboring zealot AIs are three obvious differences. Also do we want more cities elsewhere?
 
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