Lost Eden development thread

vyeh · Jul 17, 2010

Kilkakon said:
Ah whoops yeah, most of the tier one military techs didn't require Defence & Tactics, but now they do. Sorry about that.

Could you edit the technologies list in post #226?

Kilkakon said:
1. It's possible, very large bases tend to have to rely on entertainers due to there being only three facilities to control population.
2. Not sure. I haven't tried for an economic win in a while so I don't know how easy it is to get. I'm open.

Then maybe it would be good to have one or more advanced class(es) of entertainers. We can think about the Merchant specialists.

Kilkakon said:
The biggest problem if I get more specialists is that I have to think of more icon ideas for them.

Kilkakon said:
Yes Children's Creche equivalents are ingame, available from Growth Focus. Temples are Recreation Commons. I can post the facility list if you like, I just thought that you probably had enough to attack already.

Please post a facilities list.

Kilkakon said:
Sorry for taking a while to reply by the way!

No problem. I had felt guilty taking 36 hours to reply for my previous post!

Kilkakon · Jul 17, 2010

vyeh said:
Could you edit the technologies list in post #226?

Consider it done.

vyeh said:
Then maybe it would be good to have one or more advanced class(es) of entertainers. We can think about the Merchant specialists.

Okay, I've added an "Adv. Entertainer" (+3 Lux) that replaces the normal one at Goal.

vyeh said:
Please post a facilities list.

Code:

Capital,                       5, 0, None,    Disable,  Order
Children's Guild,              5, 1, GrwFocs, Disable,  Growth/Order/Morale
Town Centre,                   4, 1, None,    Disable,  Bonus Resources
City Walls,                    5, 0, Tactics, Disable,  Defence +100%
Advanced City Walls,          12, 2, CtlGoal, Disable,  Defence +100%
Temple,                        4, 1, Social,  Disable,  Fewer Unhappy
Marketplace,                   8, 1, ResFocs, Disable,  Economy Bonus
Library,                       8, 1, IntrSpc, Disable,  Labs Bonus
Native Embassy,                6, 1, Goal,    Disable,  Research/Native
(Skunkworks),                  6, 1, Disable, Disable,  Prototypes Free
Theatre,                       6, 3, IntrSpc, Disable,  Lux and Fewer Unhappy
(Paradise Garden),            12, 4, Disable, Disable,  +2 Talents
Tree Farm,                    12, 3, Disable, Disable,  Econ/Psych/Forest
(Hybrid Forest),              24, 4, Disable, Disable,  Econ/Psych/Forest
(Fusion Lab),                 12, 3, Disable, Disable,  Econ and Labs Bonus
(Quantum Lab),                24, 4, Disable, Disable,  Econ and Labs Bonus
(Research Hospital),          12, 3, Disable, Disable,  Labs and Lux Bonus
(Nanohospital),               24, 4, Disable, Disable,  Labs and Lux Bonus
(Robotic Assembly Plant),     20, 4, Disable, Disable,  Production Bonus
(Nanoreplicator),             32, 6, Disable, Disable,  Production Bonus
(Quantum Converter),          20, 5, Disable, Disable,  Production Bonus
Factory,                      10, 2, IndFocs, Disable,  Production; More Unhappy
Punishment Sphere,            10, 2, CtlGoal, Disable,  No Unhappy/-50% Tech
Aquaduct,                      8, 2, Goal,    Disable,  Increase Population Limit
Sewer System,                 16, 4, Goal,    Disable,  Increase Population Limit
Tidal Wall,                    8, 0, EcoEng2, Disable,  Submersion/Resources
(Command Centre),              4, 1, Disable, Disable,  +2 Morale:Land
(Naval Yard),                  8, 2, Disable, Disable,  +2 Morale:Sea, Sea Def +100%
(Aerospace Complex),           8, 2, Disable, Disable,  +2 Morale:Air, Air Def +100%
Barracks,                      4, 1, Tactics, Disable,  +2 Morale
Vine Preserve,                10, 2, Native3, Disable,  Ecology/Native
(Temple of Planet),           20, 3, Disable, Disable,  Ecology Bonus
(Psi Gate),                   10, 2, Disable, Disable,  Teleport
(Covert Ops Centre),          10, 2, Disable, Disable,  Stronger Probe Teams
Arena,                         8, 2, Native2, Disable,  Police/Native
(Harbour),                     8, 1, Disable, Disable,  Sea Food
Dry Dock,                     12, 2, Naga2,   Disable,  Sea Production
Gold Vault,                   10,-5, WltGoal, Disable,  Gold Bonus
(Flechette Defense System),   12, 2, Disable, Disable,  Missile Defense
(Subspace Generator),         60, 5, Disable, Disable,  Alien Victory
(Geosynchronous Survey Pod),  16, 4, Disable, Disable,  Increase sight\sensor bonus
Empty Facility 42,            10, 2, Disable, Disable,  Do Not Build Me
...
Empty Facility 64,            10, 2, Disable, Disable,  Do Not Build Me
(Sky Hydroponics Lab),        12, 0, Disable, Disable,  +1 Food ALL BASES
(Nessus Mining Station),      12, 0, Disable, Disable,  +1 Production ALL BASES
(Orbital Power Transmitter),  12, 0, Disable, Disable,  +1 Trade ALL BASES
(Orbital Defense Pod),        12, 0, Disable, Disable,  Missile Defense
Capitalisation,                0, 0, None,    Disable,  Production to Gold

I've omitted Wonders, but they are all disabled.

vyeh said:
No problem. I had felt guilty taking 36 hours to reply for my previous post!

Sure no worries, it's fine.

vyeh · Jul 17, 2010

Kilkakon said:

Code:

Capital,                       5, 0, None,    Disable,  Order
Children's Guild,              5, 1, GrwFocs, Disable,  Growth/Order/Morale
Town Centre,                   4, 1, None,    Disable,  Bonus Resources
City Walls,                    5, 0, Tactics, Disable,  Defence +100%
Advanced City Walls,          12, 2, CtlGoal, Disable,  Defence +100%
Temple,                        4, 1, Social,  Disable,  Fewer Unhappy
Marketplace,                   8, 1, ResFocs, Disable,  Economy Bonus
Library,                       8, 1, IntrSpc, Disable,  Labs Bonus
Native Embassy,                6, 1, Goal,    Disable,  Research/Native
(Skunkworks),                  6, 1, Disable, Disable,  Prototypes Free
Theatre,                       6, 3, IntrSpc, Disable,  Lux and Fewer Unhappy
(Paradise Garden),            12, 4, Disable, Disable,  +2 Talents
Tree Farm,                    12, 3, Disable, Disable,  Econ/Psych/Forest
(Hybrid Forest),              24, 4, Disable, Disable,  Econ/Psych/Forest
(Fusion Lab),                 12, 3, Disable, Disable,  Econ and Labs Bonus
(Quantum Lab),                24, 4, Disable, Disable,  Econ and Labs Bonus
(Research Hospital),          12, 3, Disable, Disable,  Labs and Lux Bonus
(Nanohospital),               24, 4, Disable, Disable,  Labs and Lux Bonus
(Robotic Assembly Plant),     20, 4, Disable, Disable,  Production Bonus
(Nanoreplicator),             32, 6, Disable, Disable,  Production Bonus
(Quantum Converter),          20, 5, Disable, Disable,  Production Bonus
Factory,                      10, 2, IndFocs, Disable,  Production; More Unhappy
Punishment Sphere,            10, 2, CtlGoal, Disable,  No Unhappy/-50% Tech
Aquaduct,                      8, 2, Goal,    Disable,  Increase Population Limit
Sewer System,                 16, 4, Goal,    Disable,  Increase Population Limit
Tidal Wall,                    8, 0, EcoEng2, Disable,  Submersion/Resources
(Command Centre),              4, 1, Disable, Disable,  +2 Morale:Land
(Naval Yard),                  8, 2, Disable, Disable,  +2 Morale:Sea, Sea Def +100%
(Aerospace Complex),           8, 2, Disable, Disable,  +2 Morale:Air, Air Def +100%
Barracks,                      4, 1, Tactics, Disable,  +2 Morale
Vine Preserve,                10, 2, Native3, Disable,  Ecology/Native
(Temple of Planet),           20, 3, Disable, Disable,  Ecology Bonus
(Psi Gate),                   10, 2, Disable, Disable,  Teleport
(Covert Ops Centre),          10, 2, Disable, Disable,  Stronger Probe Teams
Arena,                         8, 2, Native2, Disable,  Police/Native
(Harbour),                     8, 1, Disable, Disable,  Sea Food
Dry Dock,                     12, 2, Naga2,   Disable,  Sea Production
Gold Vault,                   10,-5, WltGoal, Disable,  Gold Bonus
(Flechette Defense System),   12, 2, Disable, Disable,  Missile Defense
(Subspace Generator),         60, 5, Disable, Disable,  Alien Victory
(Geosynchronous Survey Pod),  16, 4, Disable, Disable,  Increase sight\sensor bonus
Empty Facility 42,            10, 2, Disable, Disable,  Do Not Build Me
...
Empty Facility 64,            10, 2, Disable, Disable,  Do Not Build Me
(Sky Hydroponics Lab),        12, 0, Disable, Disable,  +1 Food ALL BASES
(Nessus Mining Station),      12, 0, Disable, Disable,  +1 Production ALL BASES
(Orbital Power Transmitter),  12, 0, Disable, Disable,  +1 Trade ALL BASES
(Orbital Defense Pod),        12, 0, Disable, Disable,  Missile Defense
Capitalisation,                0, 0, None,    Disable,  Production to Gold

I've omitted Wonders, but they are all disabled.

Fallen with the +1 GROWTH bonus should be able to pop-boom easily (+ GROWTH factional bonus + Growth + Demonism + Children's Guild) and the free TEMPLE will help.

Kilkakon · Jul 18, 2010

Hehe I didn't reply earlier as I didn't have much to say.

As for the Growth, you are right, Oblivion gets first dibs on Popbooming. All other factions have to wait for Perfect Society. There's no other way to get +6 Growth either (I have tried to make it harder), so people that don't like Demonism or have a Growth penalty will never be able to.

I've given Vixen's Path a Morale bonus with the tagline you mentioned earlier (you know, breeding stallions etc.). I have done some AI tests although not sure if I will get any done today (today's my LP day). From the testing that I have done, True Arena seems to be a bit weak, others are okay so far (Betrayed can get really strong, so can Assassins).

vyeh · Jul 19, 2010

Kilkakon said:
There's no other way to get +6 Growth either (I have tried to make it harder), so people that don't like Demonism or have a Growth penalty will never be able to.

What about Golden Age?

Kilkakon said:
From the testing that I have done, True Arena seems to be a bit weak, others are okay so far

Kilkakon said:
The True Arena - Group 3 (Neutral)
LEADER: {Overseer Chuck} (please suggest a better title)
SPECIES: {Hitmontop}
AGENDA: {To set up a battleground to train warriors}
TECH: {Charmander Courage}

+2 MORALE: {Battle hardened warriors that train daily}
-1 ORDER: {Overseers often punish their enemies by putting them through challenges}
-1 INDUSTRY: {Extravagant Arena operation proves costly}
Free ARENA in every base.
{May not value Knowledge}

Instead of Overseer, how about Gladiator, Warrior. Warchief or Warlord?

Maybe the ORDER or INDUSTRY penalty needs to be eliminated.

Kilkakon said:
Betrayed can get really strong

Kilkakon said:
Deadly Assassins - Group 3 (Neutral)
LEADER: {Grandmaster Morgius}
SPECIES: {Human}
AGENDA: {To become the ultimate Assassin; increasing of knowledge; enlightenment}
TECH: {Human Flexibility}

+2 PROBE: {Experts in stealthy movement}
+1 RESEARCH: {Places value on training and studying}
-1 SUPPORT: {Prefers few elite units over "grunt" warriors}
Begins with a free SPY.
{May not value Wealth.}

Try dropping the PROBE bonus to +1.

Kilkakon said:
so can Assassins).

Kilkakon said:
The Betrayed - Group 4 (Against Eden)
LEADER: {Avatar Navius}
SPECIES: {Mewtwo}
AGENDA: {Revenge}
TECH: {Ancient Knowledge, Native Cooperation}

+50% PSI: {Followers desire revenge}
+1 INDUSTRY: {Rage fuels production}
-1 ORDER: {People are selfish due to past hurt}
-1 MORALE: {Troops often freeze in panic}
Receives half penalties for GROWTH modifiers
{May not embrace Christianity in Social Engineering.}

The PSI bonus can be fine tuned if The Betrayed continue to be strong.

Edit: Do you know a place to find blank faction2.pcx and faction3.pcx files?

Kilkakon · Jul 19, 2010

vyeh said:
What about Golden Age?

Gah you are right there. :lol:

Well that can make a bit of a difference, although it'll still be hard for people not using Demonism or with a Growth penalty to match Oblivion's unholy Growth.

vyeh said:
Instead of Overseer, how about Gladiator, Warrior. Warchief or Warlord?

Maybe the ORDER or INDUSTRY penalty needs to be eliminated.

Gladiator is his description (like "The Green" for Gaia) Warlord may work, not sure though. It may be a Reverse Dictionary job.

It's meant to be similar to SMAC Sparta (totally not the ancient ones thanks :rolleyes:

) so what do you think would be better penalties for that sort of faction? Keeping it unique of course.

vyeh said:
Try dropping the PROBE bonus to +1.

They aren't too overpowered, but sure I can give that a shot. On the plus side that does make it impossible to get more than +3 PROBE which is a nice touch (I recall that there was a bug with 4+ or something?)

vyeh said:
The PSI bonus can be fine tuned if The Betrayed continue to be strong.

Sure. It's hard to say at this stage; the AI definitely doesn't use the PSI bonus as much as it could. Betrayed Explorers are insanely tough against native units though.

vyeh said:
Edit: Do you know a place to find blank faction2.pcx and faction3.pcx files?

On my hard drive! :lol:

I've uploaded them here: konfluxg.ausmb.com/DEFAULT2.jpg & konfluxg.ausmb.com/DEFAULT3.jpg

vyeh · Jul 19, 2010

Kilkakon said:
It's meant to be similar to SMAC Sparta (totally not the ancient ones thanks ) so what do you think would be better penalties for that sort of faction? Keeping it unique of course.

I don't think the ORDER penalty makes much sense. Maybe an ECONOMY penalty instead (if it is needed for balancing purposes).

Kilkakon said:
On the plus side that does make it impossible to get more than +3 PROBE which is a nice touch (I recall that there was a bug with 4+ or something?)

The probe rollover bug (the first one scient fixed) causes a +4 PROBE to act as +0 PROBE.

Kilkakon said:
On my hard drive!

I've uploaded them here: konfluxg.ausmb.com/DEFAULT2.jpg & konfluxg.ausmb.com/DEFAULT3.jpg

Thanks. Someone at Apolyton was asking. I credited you. Maybe we can get another new person over here.

Kilkakon · Jul 19, 2010

vyeh said:
I don't think the ORDER penalty makes much sense. Maybe an ECONOMY penalty instead (if it is needed for balancing purposes).

How about a --ECONOMY instead of -INDUSTRY, and removing the -ORDER?

vyeh said:
The probe rollover bug (the first one scient fixed) causes a +4 PROBE to act as +0 PROBE.

Ah that's what it was. Ah well it's all good even on unpatched versions now.

vyeh said:
Thanks. Someone at Apolyton was asking. I credited you. Maybe we can get another new person over here.

No worries; glad to help somebody out. My influence grows. :lol:

Thanks vyeh.

vyeh · Jul 19, 2010

Kilkakon said:
How about a --ECONOMY instead of -INDUSTRY, and removing the -ORDER?

OK. And you can still use {Extravagant Arena operation proves costly}!

Kilkakon · Jul 19, 2010

Yay it's done. Now as for what I'll do today, I'll work on making up as many of the datalink entries as I can (they are all still SMAC) and run some AI games on the laptop while I am at it.

Alfador · Jul 19, 2010

vyeh said:
Thanks. Someone at Apolyton was asking. I credited you. Maybe we can get another new person over here.

Maybe!

At any rate, I may or may not be terribly active around here, but hey, if I ever get those factions finished, I'll let you guys know. Thanks Kilkakon for the help!!

vyeh · Jul 19, 2010

Kilkakon said:
I'll work on making up as many of the datalink entries as I can (they are all still SMAC)

Do you mean SMAX?

Alfador said:
if I ever get those factions finished, I'll let you guys know.

Please do. And let us know if we can help further!

Kilkakon · Jul 19, 2010

@vyeh Yeah I did, I just meant that they had not been changed.

And no problem Alfador!

Here comes the EDIT!:

Okay I've done facilities and most of the social models. It's hard to be impartial on some of them. :lol:

Um I've discovered today that going to secret project or anything that's related to a unit (chassis, armour, weapon, special ability, etc.) in the Datalinks will also crash the game. Powerful stuff! It's also going to be interesting to rename/remove concepts, as the game sorts it alphabetically.

As for AI tests, Pirates are still probably a bit too powerful. They play stupidly too.

Kilkakon · Jul 22, 2010

Not sure if you noticed my edit vyeh.

But what I can say is new is that I'll be AWOL for the next few days -- tomorrow I'm having a LAN day, Saturday I'm free (but will probably do XCOM due to being busy Monday), Sunday church/social, Monday another LAN day (playing this project yay!)

Just to let you know.

vyeh · Jul 22, 2010

Kilkakon said:
Um I've discovered today that going to secret project or anything that's related to a unit (chassis, armour, weapon, special ability, etc.) in the Datalinks will also crash the game. Powerful stuff!

Do you suppose it is because they are disabled?

Kilkakon said:
As for AI tests, Pirates are still probably a bit too powerful. They play stupidly too.

How can they be both too powerful and stupid?

Kilkakon said:
Not sure if you noticed my edit vyeh.

I did not notice the edit. I wish the vB software would flag edits like new posts.

Kilkakon said:
But what I can say is new is that I'll be AWOL for the next few days -- tomorrow I'm having a LAN day, Saturday I'm free (but will probably do XCOM due to being busy Monday), Sunday church/social, Monday another LAN day (playing this project yay!)

Leave granted.

Kilkakon said:
Just to let you know.

Thanks. I recently re-read the following sentences from the Designer Notes in the SMAX manual (pp. 47-8):

We set several goals when balancing faction attributes: Each faction should have certain strategies suggested by its culture and powers. However, the faction should not be "locked in" to those strategies - if the game situation warrants it, the faction should be able to deviate from its optimal path. The faction strengths should give the player interesting things to do without unbalancing the game. Finally, and most important, the faction must be fun to play, ensuring the player has new and different series of interesting and challenging decisions to make each time he or she plays.

Kilkakon · Jul 24, 2010

vyeh said:
Do you suppose it is because they are disabled?

Yeah of course. Most likely the game goes "Okay, let's select the first one in the list... Oh no there's nothing there! :eek:

Let's throw an exception!"

vyeh said:
How can they be both too powerful and stupid?

Stupid in that they spam Transports almost exclusively. They also build land units in sea bases etc. Too powerful in that despite this they still do well.

vyeh said:
I did not notice the edit. I wish the vB software would flag edits like new posts.

How about I just double post instead of editting in future? Not sure how well that would go down with Petek though. :lol:

vyeh said:
Thanks. I recently re-read the following sentences from the Designer Notes in the SMAX manual (pp. 47-8):

Interesting. Most of the factions are pretty unique (hopefully!). Some of them are pretty locked into a strategy though -- e.g. Rangers with Forestry, Pirates on the water, Protectors with going Green.

vyeh said:
Leave granted.

Hehe thanks. I'm back for now but not for long! :eek:

I'm really tired hey, but I have to do my XCOM videos today as Monday I'll be playing a 4 player of this game! I'm looking forward to it but let's pray that it doesn't tire me out as much as yesterday did! :eek:

vyeh · Jul 25, 2010

Kilkakon said:
How about I just double post instead of editting in future? Not sure how well that would go down with Petek though.

I'll start looking at the bottom of your last post!

Kilkakon said:
Interesting. Most of the factions are pretty unique (hopefully!). Some of them are pretty locked into a strategy though -- e.g. Rangers with Forestry, Pirates on the water, Protectors with going Green.

As noted, there is an optimal strategy, but those characteristics shouldn't stop those factions from pursuing another strategy (e.g. nothing stops the Pirates from building land bases).

Kilkakon said:
let's pray that it doesn't tire me out as much as yesterday did!

I will.

Kilkakon · Jul 26, 2010

I'm back and I'm bluer than ever! :band:

Today was the epic four way game. Didn't finish it but it was cool.

Everybody ended up ganging up against Oblivion however. :lol:

Everybody had fun, except for Dad, but he brought it upon himself by turning Governors on for every city and Shift-Aing every unit. :lol:

Not much to report otherwise though, just back in action.

Tomorrow will most likely be a catch up day after all the socialness of late (I've had enough for 2 weeks I think :lol:

) but I may get to more improvements. Hard to say really what to do with Lost Eden now other than quotes and balancing.

Have you any more comments about that step-by-step breakdown of the game?

Hope that everything is going okay without me. :eek:

vyeh · Jul 27, 2010

Kilkakon said:
I'm back and I'm bluer than ever!

I am not sure what "bluer" means. In American, it means "sadder." However, I suppose it could refer to your avatar.

Kilkakon said:
he brought it upon himself by turning Governors on for every city and Shift-Aing every unit.

There isn't much to do if all the bases and units are automated.

Kilkakon said:
Hard to say really what to do with Lost Eden now other than quotes and balancing.

And waiting for art.

Kilkakon said:
Have you any more comments about that step-by-step breakdown of the game?

I still want to look at the tech (although I am not sure if I am going to have anything to say) and the units (which will be interesting).

Kilkakon said:
Hope that everything is going okay without me.

You could take a look at this post. tuga2112 would like to get more opinions from more people.

Kilkakon · Jul 27, 2010

vyeh said:
I am not sure what "bluer" means. In American, it means "sadder." However, I suppose it could refer to your avatar.

It's a reference to a kids show that was on a few years ago (it originated from America) that had 60-second songs at the end of each episode. In one case it was "I'm back and I'm bluer than ever" which was a silly version of "I'm back and I'm betta than ever" (The character was blue).
Here's a link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg5V9ttWwSw. It's really silly. :lol:

vyeh said:
There isn't much to do if all the bases and units are automated.

Yeah. That's what I kept on crying out during the game: "Take control!"

vyeh said:
And waiting for art.

Of course. I'll let you know when there has been a development. There's also the icons, which I'll probably attempt to get to tomorrow. They are hard though, the remaining factions: The True Arena and The Betrayed. I don't have any ideas that spring to mind.

vyeh said:
I still want to look at the tech (although I am not sure if I am going to have anything to say) and the units (which will be interesting).

Okay sure! I'll repost them if you desire. What I do know is that I have had to move the Gold Vault to replace the Skunkworks as that was a more suitable building (the sea energy building that it used to replace couldn't be built in a base without any ocean squares).

vyeh said:
You could take a look at this post. tuga2112 would like to get more opinions from more people.

Alright I'll take a look now.

Lost Eden development thread

Emperor

King

Emperor

King

Emperor

King

Emperor

King

Emperor

King

Chieftain

Emperor

King

King

Emperor

King

Emperor

King

Emperor

King

Similar threads