T-hawk
Transcend
Well, even if that team is finished, there's a possibility that they didn't hit all the victory conditions. So we should certainly play on.
SGOTM 11 - Barley Demons
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Compromise
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It's embarrassing not to know this for sure, but I suspect that it is the penultimate--rather than the victory save--that is listed in the table.
Tested again... You're right, a fort on the coast (and not directly on top of any resources) connects resources that are connected by road to the fort.
We've got one, and Agra can make them pretty quickly. I'd recommend getting some cats covered by maces over there quickly.
Note that even though I've marked several spots on the map as Transfer points, it doesn't speed up a boatload to put a galleon at Transfer spot E. That boat would have to wait until the next turn to unload its occupants. (Though having one there would expedite the "reloading" of the galleon chain, of course.)
They spent some money, but I'm not sure if it was upgrading or maintenance. I only checked after the longbows were there.
Also, regarding golden ages: I did think about it. The issue is that we won't know if we have an extra great person until we know Bombay gives us an Engineer. A golden age only adds 5EngGPP/t too. Not enough to make a big difference; it still needed pollution.
And I thought that a better use for a golden age is probably when we're hand-building the UN and/or saving for a cashrush.
Tested again... You're right, a fort on the coast (and not directly on top of any resources) connects resources that are connected by road to the fort.
We've got one, and Agra can make them pretty quickly. I'd recommend getting some cats covered by maces over there quickly.
Note that even though I've marked several spots on the map as Transfer points, it doesn't speed up a boatload to put a galleon at Transfer spot E. That boat would have to wait until the next turn to unload its occupants. (Though having one there would expedite the "reloading" of the galleon chain, of course.)
They spent some money, but I'm not sure if it was upgrading or maintenance. I only checked after the longbows were there.
Also, regarding golden ages: I did think about it. The issue is that we won't know if we have an extra great person until we know Bombay gives us an Engineer. A golden age only adds 5EngGPP/t too. Not enough to make a big difference; it still needed pollution.
And I thought that a better use for a golden age is probably when we're hand-building the UN and/or saving for a cashrush.
T-hawk
Transcend
Ok, I've got time tonight. First a round of save examination then I'll play in an hour or two. Trying to tie together two pages of posts into a coherent turnset plan.
- Any reason Pataliputra is running an engineer? I don't think we have any chance of pushing a Great Person out of here. Agra is also running an engineer but that city might actually cash a GP.
- Scientists not Merchants in Varanasi. Because Varanasi has an academy, its science multiplier is ahead of our national average, so scientists are the right call here. Also scientists are better to get to Electricity/Radio faster since cash is not the limiting factor there (still got 16 turns of research in the bank.)
- Do we want to consider abandoning the engineer plan at Bombay? It needs Caste to do it, since it has just 1 spy and 1 priest slot otherwise. But not having Slavery is a serious drag elsewhere. We could be conquering barbarians MUCH faster with the whip. Varanasi would be OK on spec slots without Caste, it can do Spy+Eng+Sci+Sci+Priest.
- I agree on Dyes from Isabella for Horse. We have 2 horses so can trade one.
- I have played the first turn now in order to get Justinian's research, since there weren't any immediate decisions to make. I did put one spy in Varanasi for the turn. Justinian is researching Education due in 14. We are currently 1 turn from Physics then 14 from Electricity. That 14 does not include the x1.2 prereq bonus (because we don't actually have Physics yet). So I think we are clear to reach Electricity then Lib->Radio. But if need be, we can spend one or both scientists on bulbing to make sure of it.
- Justinian could give us 160 gold + map for Compass. I think we should do that, to take 160 gold away from him chasing Liberalism, since Compass is devalued to 5th civ now and there's no reason to hoard it.
- We can also take Engineering from Isabella. I'd give up Civil Service + Optics to do it, no need to hoard either of those. Other options are Paper or Philo.
- Any reason Pataliputra is running an engineer? I don't think we have any chance of pushing a Great Person out of here. Agra is also running an engineer but that city might actually cash a GP.
- Scientists not Merchants in Varanasi. Because Varanasi has an academy, its science multiplier is ahead of our national average, so scientists are the right call here. Also scientists are better to get to Electricity/Radio faster since cash is not the limiting factor there (still got 16 turns of research in the bank.)
- Do we want to consider abandoning the engineer plan at Bombay? It needs Caste to do it, since it has just 1 spy and 1 priest slot otherwise. But not having Slavery is a serious drag elsewhere. We could be conquering barbarians MUCH faster with the whip. Varanasi would be OK on spec slots without Caste, it can do Spy+Eng+Sci+Sci+Priest.
- I agree on Dyes from Isabella for Horse. We have 2 horses so can trade one.
- I have played the first turn now in order to get Justinian's research, since there weren't any immediate decisions to make. I did put one spy in Varanasi for the turn. Justinian is researching Education due in 14. We are currently 1 turn from Physics then 14 from Electricity. That 14 does not include the x1.2 prereq bonus (because we don't actually have Physics yet). So I think we are clear to reach Electricity then Lib->Radio. But if need be, we can spend one or both scientists on bulbing to make sure of it.
- Justinian could give us 160 gold + map for Compass. I think we should do that, to take 160 gold away from him chasing Liberalism, since Compass is devalued to 5th civ now and there's no reason to hoard it.
- We can also take Engineering from Isabella. I'd give up Civil Service + Optics to do it, no need to hoard either of those. Other options are Paper or Philo.
Compromise
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You're probably playing now, but...
I think the Engineer in Patal was just for more hammers.
Engineering from Isabella would speed up road movement.
Is it possible to hop to Slavery briefly for some whips, then back to try for the Engineer from Bombay? I think getting one will save us significantly, but I'd be interested in your assessment of the cashrush possibilities too.
If you do whip, we could probably use some Markets. At least in a few high-commerce cities, they'll accelerate our cashrush a bit.
Go for Liberating Radio!
I think the Engineer in Patal was just for more hammers.
Engineering from Isabella would speed up road movement.
Is it possible to hop to Slavery briefly for some whips, then back to try for the Engineer from Bombay? I think getting one will save us significantly, but I'd be interested in your assessment of the cashrush possibilities too.
If you do whip, we could probably use some Markets. At least in a few high-commerce cities, they'll accelerate our cashrush a bit.
Go for Liberating Radio!
T-hawk
Transcend
2 hours and no comments... well, I'm going to plow ahead. (Rather than risk the reload gestapo by saving and continuing tomorrow.)
I won't drop Caste System and the Bombay-engineer plan. That's overthinking it to the point of silly. We can endure 9 more turns of Caste and still have time to whack barbarians.
I did my self-suggested deals. Compass to Justinian for his cash and map. Engineering from Isabella for... Optics+CS isn't enough, she must be researching CS, so I give her Optics+Paper instead. Dye from Isabella for Horse.
T230 / 850 AD: We have Physics. 12 turns to Electricity. Justinian now shows 18 turns to Edu. I feel pretty good.
Domestic front: it's time to stop building infrastructure. No harbors. No markets. I let a couple Forges complete to provide more whipping oomph when we get there. But none of that economic stuff will make any difference now. Just barb-killing units and Buddhist missionaries (both for barbs and for Tokugawa.)
Spies finished exploring the barb island and confirmed that it is indeed ice encased all the way around.
An AP election came up with Justinian as the only choice. I voted for the diplo credit.
T231 / 860 AD: Nice, we get to pick up Guilds in trade too, from friendly Mehmed, giving up Engineering and Optics. I also realize we can sell our map around for about 50g per AI.
Justinian births a Great Prophet. That is good news! No Liberalism steal via lightbulb from him.
T233 / 880 AD: I am setting sail with one galleon loaded with two macemen. It's set up to chain to the second galleon. This isn't enough to take the city, but I'm hoping I can park the two maces on hills and get the barb AI to suicide some wandering units on them.
Also I am pulling warriors from cities that won't go into anger, to start shipping them over to Furs Island. Galleon space and transport capacity is a limited resource. That resource would otherwise go to waste since we don't have maces and cats to send yet. So moving the warriors ahead of time should work fine. I also started moving Great Scientists this way.
T236 / 910 AD: Time for the Big Ultra Mega Huge Dice Roll from Bombay.
But before that...
Woof. That's a big demand for a monopoly tech. But I pay it. No sense taking a risky chance when free diplo points are available. Added +3 more to "fair and forthright" too.
Now for the payoff...
YES! Marconi plays the mamba!
(Oh, and popped one? Uranium is poppable?)
===========================
I continued a few more turns because the next moves are obvious. Right now we go to Slavery + Theocracy which is obvious. Slavery to whip military and Theocracy to help that military plus start to earn diplo credit. We don't need Pacifism now. I had Varanasi producing GPP right behind Bombay so it will produce another right now. Then our civ just needs one more to satisfy Eldine which will come soon enough that it is not the limiting factor. I did have Varanasi whip a market to get two more specialist slots.
Current Liberalism status is that we're 4 from Electricity while Justinian is 3 from Education. Burning one of our two Scientists on a bulb will make GP a limiting factor, so I stand pat on that. I am betting Justinian can't research Lib in 2 turns from scratch.
T238 / 930 AD: Got Banking + change from Mehmed, giving up Philo + Paper. Lib is almost decided so this is safe. Too bad it came 1 turn too late to take Mercantilism in the previous civics swap.
T239 / 940 AD: Woops, all that whipping cost a turn on Electricity. I whipped a settler out of Madras for the furs spot. Madras instead of Agra because it's whipping away weaker non-Moai tiles.
BTW I find this hilarious: our best military units are macemen and catapults... and airships.
T240 / 950 AD: Justinian finished Education and shows 9T to Liberalism. We are 2T from Electricity then plus 1 to finish Lib. Radio is in the bag.
T242 / 970 AD: Ugh, too slow. DevilsGate has longbowmen. But...
I have a galley next to Japan holding two spies. Bonking him into Buddhism plus adopting Mercantilism (we should gift him up to Banking) looks like it might be enough for his vote. The timing of the bonk is critical - do it just before the victory election because he will switch back out of Buddhism. We don't care about AI research now so I put all EP to Tokugawa for this bonk.
We can change civics this turn. Definitely want Mercantilism. I am not sure if we need Caste/Pacifism. Varanasi currently shows 21 turns to our next Great Person, which will drop to 18 when it finishes that temple and adds another priest. Is this the limiting factor? Include travel time to the furs.
The shipping has been a bit haphazard, but we have most of what we need over on Barb Island. Currently 4 maces and 2 cats there, with 2 more maces and 2 more cats on the way. I would play this by using the first 2 cats to bombard (promote one to Accuracy), then using the 3 non-Accuracy cats to suicide, saving the last Accuracy cat for Zhou (both bombard and suicide it.) We also have 5 warriors over there, 3 Great Scientists on the way, two Buddhist Missionaries, one Settler, and some workers that I just loaded onto a boat. BTW, the furs are NOT coastal, so we need coastal access in another way, either with an extra city (which needs an extra missionary) or the coastal fort.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm11/Barley_Demons_SG011_AD0980_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
I won't drop Caste System and the Bombay-engineer plan. That's overthinking it to the point of silly. We can endure 9 more turns of Caste and still have time to whack barbarians.
I did my self-suggested deals. Compass to Justinian for his cash and map. Engineering from Isabella for... Optics+CS isn't enough, she must be researching CS, so I give her Optics+Paper instead. Dye from Isabella for Horse.
T230 / 850 AD: We have Physics. 12 turns to Electricity. Justinian now shows 18 turns to Edu. I feel pretty good.
Domestic front: it's time to stop building infrastructure. No harbors. No markets. I let a couple Forges complete to provide more whipping oomph when we get there. But none of that economic stuff will make any difference now. Just barb-killing units and Buddhist missionaries (both for barbs and for Tokugawa.)
Spies finished exploring the barb island and confirmed that it is indeed ice encased all the way around.
An AP election came up with Justinian as the only choice. I voted for the diplo credit.
T231 / 860 AD: Nice, we get to pick up Guilds in trade too, from friendly Mehmed, giving up Engineering and Optics. I also realize we can sell our map around for about 50g per AI.
Justinian births a Great Prophet. That is good news! No Liberalism steal via lightbulb from him.
T233 / 880 AD: I am setting sail with one galleon loaded with two macemen. It's set up to chain to the second galleon. This isn't enough to take the city, but I'm hoping I can park the two maces on hills and get the barb AI to suicide some wandering units on them.
Also I am pulling warriors from cities that won't go into anger, to start shipping them over to Furs Island. Galleon space and transport capacity is a limited resource. That resource would otherwise go to waste since we don't have maces and cats to send yet. So moving the warriors ahead of time should work fine. I also started moving Great Scientists this way.
T236 / 910 AD: Time for the Big Ultra Mega Huge Dice Roll from Bombay.
But before that...
Woof. That's a big demand for a monopoly tech. But I pay it. No sense taking a risky chance when free diplo points are available. Added +3 more to "fair and forthright" too.
Now for the payoff...
YES! Marconi plays the mamba!
(Oh, and popped one? Uranium is poppable?)
===========================
I continued a few more turns because the next moves are obvious. Right now we go to Slavery + Theocracy which is obvious. Slavery to whip military and Theocracy to help that military plus start to earn diplo credit. We don't need Pacifism now. I had Varanasi producing GPP right behind Bombay so it will produce another right now. Then our civ just needs one more to satisfy Eldine which will come soon enough that it is not the limiting factor. I did have Varanasi whip a market to get two more specialist slots.
Current Liberalism status is that we're 4 from Electricity while Justinian is 3 from Education. Burning one of our two Scientists on a bulb will make GP a limiting factor, so I stand pat on that. I am betting Justinian can't research Lib in 2 turns from scratch.
T238 / 930 AD: Got Banking + change from Mehmed, giving up Philo + Paper. Lib is almost decided so this is safe. Too bad it came 1 turn too late to take Mercantilism in the previous civics swap.
T239 / 940 AD: Woops, all that whipping cost a turn on Electricity. I whipped a settler out of Madras for the furs spot. Madras instead of Agra because it's whipping away weaker non-Moai tiles.
BTW I find this hilarious: our best military units are macemen and catapults... and airships.
T240 / 950 AD: Justinian finished Education and shows 9T to Liberalism. We are 2T from Electricity then plus 1 to finish Lib. Radio is in the bag.
T242 / 970 AD: Ugh, too slow. DevilsGate has longbowmen. But...
I have a galley next to Japan holding two spies. Bonking him into Buddhism plus adopting Mercantilism (we should gift him up to Banking) looks like it might be enough for his vote. The timing of the bonk is critical - do it just before the victory election because he will switch back out of Buddhism. We don't care about AI research now so I put all EP to Tokugawa for this bonk.
We can change civics this turn. Definitely want Mercantilism. I am not sure if we need Caste/Pacifism. Varanasi currently shows 21 turns to our next Great Person, which will drop to 18 when it finishes that temple and adds another priest. Is this the limiting factor? Include travel time to the furs.
The shipping has been a bit haphazard, but we have most of what we need over on Barb Island. Currently 4 maces and 2 cats there, with 2 more maces and 2 more cats on the way. I would play this by using the first 2 cats to bombard (promote one to Accuracy), then using the 3 non-Accuracy cats to suicide, saving the last Accuracy cat for Zhou (both bombard and suicide it.) We also have 5 warriors over there, 3 Great Scientists on the way, two Buddhist Missionaries, one Settler, and some workers that I just loaded onto a boat. BTW, the furs are NOT coastal, so we need coastal access in another way, either with an extra city (which needs an extra missionary) or the coastal fort.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm11/Barley_Demons_SG011_AD0980_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
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T-hawk
Transcend
I believe the limiting factors right now are research then building the UN. Mercantilism-Rep synergy will probably knock one turn off Mass Media research. Figure 7 turns to MM, 10 or so to build the UN, then 9 turns to get to the second election for victory. I have not thought about how or where to build the UN the fastest.
If that's 26 turns, then the other factors come in underneath that. Varanasi is 18 turns from birthing our fourth surplus Great Person, which leaves just enough time to sail him over to the furs. 26 turns is also more than enough time to conquer the barb cities and pop the border of DevilsGate to build the coastal fort. Or else just whip the settler from Agra and build a coastal city instead (make sure to bring one more missionary.)
I do not expect to see another turnset in this game.
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Compromise
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Good work T-Hawk!
Am quite happy about the Engineer; glad the late forge didn't burn us there.
Airships...that is funny. Can we use them? Seems like no.
We'll need two Buddhist Missionaries for barb island, right? Also, I don't think Zhou has any culture at all right now, so we may not need to save an Accuracy cat for it.
Will probably have time to examine the save in detail tomorrow, but I don't think we need too much more planning. Decide where to build the UN (time to count votes again...).
Haven't looked at the save, but it probably makes sense to go back to pacifism for Varanasi after Mass Media is in. Although sufficient galleys lined up along the south could make the trip quickly.
Is the Economics Merchant still available? Can that come in quicker than Varanasi's natural Person (after Mass Media, of course)? Or the Communist Spy?
Maybe this depends on the UN location. Could be Delhi if we don't have to gift away the UN.
I think we can wrap this up in two more turnsets. And our next turnplayer is...SilentConfusion? Timmy? If neither...Swiss? Where are we at in the late-summer vacation schedule for everyone...?
Am quite happy about the Engineer; glad the late forge didn't burn us there.
Airships...that is funny. Can we use them? Seems like no.
We'll need two Buddhist Missionaries for barb island, right? Also, I don't think Zhou has any culture at all right now, so we may not need to save an Accuracy cat for it.
Will probably have time to examine the save in detail tomorrow, but I don't think we need too much more planning. Decide where to build the UN (time to count votes again...).
Haven't looked at the save, but it probably makes sense to go back to pacifism for Varanasi after Mass Media is in. Although sufficient galleys lined up along the south could make the trip quickly.
Is the Economics Merchant still available? Can that come in quicker than Varanasi's natural Person (after Mass Media, of course)? Or the Communist Spy?
Maybe this depends on the UN location. Could be Delhi if we don't have to gift away the UN.
I think we can wrap this up in two more turnsets. And our next turnplayer is...SilentConfusion? Timmy? If neither...Swiss? Where are we at in the late-summer vacation schedule for everyone...?
Swiss Pauli
Emperor
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Nice work (as always!) T-Hawk!
I'm available for a set this week.
Don't think we should switch out of Theo, should we?
I'm available for a set this week.
Don't think we should switch out of Theo, should we?
timmy827
King
Sweet.
Re: airships - actually they wouldn't be the worst thing in the world because they relocate so fast - once we have DevilsGate we could fly a couple over to damage the longbows in Zhou. Probably not needed, but just a thought.
UN in Agra right (biggest pop right now for GE rushing, and most hammers)? If that is our bottleneck to win speed, can we stop the settler so it grows a bit more, and workshop the plains tiles?
Re: airships - actually they wouldn't be the worst thing in the world because they relocate so fast - once we have DevilsGate we could fly a couple over to damage the longbows in Zhou. Probably not needed, but just a thought.
UN in Agra right (biggest pop right now for GE rushing, and most hammers)? If that is our bottleneck to win speed, can we stop the settler so it grows a bit more, and workshop the plains tiles?
Swiss Pauli
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One option would be to try to build a new Palace in our biggest hammer city before starting UN for BUR bonus. If that city were Agra then we could whip the settler into the Palace.
Quickly checked Mehmed & Justinian's pop and Justinian is well ahead ~30 pop. I noted the exact numbers but didn't have time to tally them before heading to work.
I think we should be OK without Theo bonuses, so if a switch to Pacifism can get us a GP for a Golden Age (as well as the 4th GP for furs) for UN building we should probably go down that path.
@timmy - are you available to play this week?
Quickly checked Mehmed & Justinian's pop and Justinian is well ahead ~30 pop. I noted the exact numbers but didn't have time to tally them before heading to work.
I think we should be OK without Theo bonuses, so if a switch to Pacifism can get us a GP for a Golden Age (as well as the 4th GP for furs) for UN building we should probably go down that path.
@timmy - are you available to play this week?
T-hawk
Transcend
Economics Merchant... good call! Yes it is available. Justinian changed research to Nationalism after we got Liberalism. There's a pretty good chance we can make it to Economics first even after Mass Media.
So that makes the Great Person plan:
- use one Scientist to pop the Golden Age as soon as we can start building the UN
- research Economics
- the GA will also (slightly) speed the next GP from Varanasi
- so we sail both the Economics Merchant and Varanasi's last GP over to the furs together.
- And I think all that happens without needing Pacifism so we can keep Theocracy for diplo insurance.
Compromise, I'll let you do the legwork of figuring out the vote counts and possibilities and where we should build the UN. Yes workshops might be a good idea (and Caste to boost them, we can give up Slavery now.) I had our workers all building roads to and through Zara's territory to make sure we didn't lose any time moving the army to Barb Island. Pre-whipping into the UN doesn't really work, we want to keep the city's population high to get 30/pop more from the Great Engineer.
Do not trade Liberalism. Can't have the AIs going to Free Religion. It's fixable via spies but that will take extra time.
Airships, if we want to build one or two to airstrike Zhou from DevilsGate, feel free, if only for the amusement value.
I do have two Buddhist Missionaries going to the island. One is on a galleon one turn away. The other was just produced and is still in Zara's land, and can board a boat next turn. Remember that we need either workers for a coastal fort, or an extra settler and missionary.
To summarize on civics:
- Mercantilism definitely now, Merc-Rep speeds to MM
- Theocracy keep, since it doesn't look like we'll need Pacifism (perhaps a quick jaunt then return to Theocracy for vote time)
- UniSuffrage when we get MM, for town hammers if Delhi builds the UN, and cash rushing
- Caste when we get MM, to boost workshops for the UN.
So that makes the Great Person plan:
- use one Scientist to pop the Golden Age as soon as we can start building the UN
- research Economics
- the GA will also (slightly) speed the next GP from Varanasi
- so we sail both the Economics Merchant and Varanasi's last GP over to the furs together.
- And I think all that happens without needing Pacifism so we can keep Theocracy for diplo insurance.
Compromise, I'll let you do the legwork of figuring out the vote counts and possibilities and where we should build the UN. Yes workshops might be a good idea (and Caste to boost them, we can give up Slavery now.) I had our workers all building roads to and through Zara's territory to make sure we didn't lose any time moving the army to Barb Island. Pre-whipping into the UN doesn't really work, we want to keep the city's population high to get 30/pop more from the Great Engineer.
Do not trade Liberalism. Can't have the AIs going to Free Religion. It's fixable via spies but that will take extra time.
Airships, if we want to build one or two to airstrike Zhou from DevilsGate, feel free, if only for the amusement value.
I do have two Buddhist Missionaries going to the island. One is on a galleon one turn away. The other was just produced and is still in Zara's land, and can board a boat next turn. Remember that we need either workers for a coastal fort, or an extra settler and missionary.
To summarize on civics:
- Mercantilism definitely now, Merc-Rep speeds to MM
- Theocracy keep, since it doesn't look like we'll need Pacifism (perhaps a quick jaunt then return to Theocracy for vote time)
- UniSuffrage when we get MM, for town hammers if Delhi builds the UN, and cash rushing
- Caste when we get MM, to boost workshops for the UN.
Swiss Pauli
Emperor
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Tallied up the raw city pop numbers and Justinian is 27 ahead of Mehmed. He also has a greater amount of large cities. Does this have any impact on pop score? (I think it does.)
EDIT: not sure that researching Economics fits with running Usuf after getting MM. If we go that way, we want to stay in Rep to speed teching, then switch to Usuf. I still think it's best to get the Palace up in Agra before the UN, even if it means whipping as the 50% boost will outweigh the pop bonus to the GE.
EDIT: not sure that researching Economics fits with running Usuf after getting MM. If we go that way, we want to stay in Rep to speed teching, then switch to Usuf. I still think it's best to get the Palace up in Agra before the UN, even if it means whipping as the 50% boost will outweigh the pop bonus to the GE.
Compromise
Emperor
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Quick glance in-game: Zara is willing to accept Bombay from us, and that city can generate 33hpt easily. Probably best to build it there regardless of hammer counts so that we could give it away if worse comes to worst. (Is that the phrase?)
Size 14 is 750+30x14=1170H toward the UN, IIRC.
Maybe another chance to look things over tonight. Bad week for me Civtimewise. If we're not finished by next week, I'll help end it. But before then, I suspect timmy and Swiss could finish it.
Timmy, do you want to take the next set and then have Swiss run the last set?
Size 14 is 750+30x14=1170H toward the UN, IIRC.
Maybe another chance to look things over tonight. Bad week for me Civtimewise. If we're not finished by next week, I'll help end it. But before then, I suspect timmy and Swiss could finish it.
Timmy, do you want to take the next set and then have Swiss run the last set?
timmy827
King
Yes, taking this set and having Swiss closeout sounds good. I definitely won't play before Thursday (still sort of busy tonight, tomorrow) and possibly not the weekend - but given we think it is just two more sets I think it makes sense for
1) lots of discussion, make sure everything is optimized/set
2) since I haven't seen the game in the last week, give me time to carefully examine the save + the last 4 pages of thread.
1) lots of discussion, make sure everything is optimized/set
2) since I haven't seen the game in the last week, give me time to carefully examine the save + the last 4 pages of thread.
timmy827
King
Starting to plan out...
I really think UN in Agra.
Default plan (where we hold the UN) - appears that Justinian is safely ahead of Mehmed for rival. Then we have locks on Mehmed, Izzy, Zara vote and probably get Toku with a spy-revolt - definitely a win.
If we gift it to Zara, it appears that the other Buddhists will still vote for us, but we lose Zara's vote and probably can't get Justinian's. So I don't think this is a useful backup plan and Agra can get it done faster.
Agra details:
Cancel the settler, can definitely get it to size 18 by the time the GE rolls around. Workshop the plains with workers not being sent to
Could cash rush after using the GE, but looks like we will burn the rest on Mass Media + Economics.
@size 18, GE is 750 + 30*18 = 1290 of the 1500 hammers. Whip is 22.5 *1.25 = 28.125 hammers per pop so that's already within whip range.
What's the vote timeframe - SecGen election turn after UN, we win next turn, wait 5 turns for diplo vic vote?
Barb Island plans:
From the "no settlers" bit I gather we are keeping both cities? A bit worried about Zhou's resistance time, will move the settler in our lands over as precaution.
Need to start ferrying workers - need a fort built and camp.
GP Plans:
Varanasi will still have a specialist slot unusable (the temple and Mercantilism cancel out) so running some Caste during the Golden Age (which we are firing now) may be an option.
I need to figure out which of these things is the slow step after running numbers tomorrow.
Diplo plans:
Gift Toku to Banking, both for trade bonus and so he can adopt Merc. If possible I will bribe him into Merc. Move a couple more spies over to make sure the Buddhism bonk doesn't fail.
Other votes appear to be locked up or totally out of reach.
I really think UN in Agra.
Default plan (where we hold the UN) - appears that Justinian is safely ahead of Mehmed for rival. Then we have locks on Mehmed, Izzy, Zara vote and probably get Toku with a spy-revolt - definitely a win.
If we gift it to Zara, it appears that the other Buddhists will still vote for us, but we lose Zara's vote and probably can't get Justinian's. So I don't think this is a useful backup plan and Agra can get it done faster.
Agra details:
Cancel the settler, can definitely get it to size 18 by the time the GE rolls around. Workshop the plains with workers not being sent to
Could cash rush after using the GE, but looks like we will burn the rest on Mass Media + Economics.
@size 18, GE is 750 + 30*18 = 1290 of the 1500 hammers. Whip is 22.5 *1.25 = 28.125 hammers per pop so that's already within whip range.
What's the vote timeframe - SecGen election turn after UN, we win next turn, wait 5 turns for diplo vic vote?
Barb Island plans:
From the "no settlers" bit I gather we are keeping both cities? A bit worried about Zhou's resistance time, will move the settler in our lands over as precaution.
Need to start ferrying workers - need a fort built and camp.
GP Plans:
Varanasi will still have a specialist slot unusable (the temple and Mercantilism cancel out) so running some Caste during the Golden Age (which we are firing now) may be an option.
I need to figure out which of these things is the slow step after running numbers tomorrow.
Diplo plans:
Gift Toku to Banking, both for trade bonus and so he can adopt Merc. If possible I will bribe him into Merc. Move a couple more spies over to make sure the Buddhism bonk doesn't fail.
Other votes appear to be locked up or totally out of reach.
Jabah
Emperor
I think you can relocate airship into forts.
Since we need a fort in Barb island, if we can build it fast (unlikey, but just a thought), we can even use airships to lower DGate defence/damage units on top of the cat actions.
Since we need a fort in Barb island, if we can build it fast (unlikey, but just a thought), we can even use airships to lower DGate defence/damage units on top of the cat actions.
Swiss Pauli
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2006
- Messages
- 1,805
We have a settler already (outside Vijay I think) for settling on furs (raze Zhou).
T-hawk
Transcend
The UN has a 300% hurry penalty as we discovered upthread. Pretty sure this applies to both whipping and cash rushing. So it's only 11.25 base hammers per pop whipped into the UN.
The vote interval is 6 turns on normal speed (so 5 from first results to next vote). I think that scales up to 9 turns on Epic. Not 100% sure but easy to test in worldbuilder.
We have one settler on the way to settle on the furs. Also 3 workers on a boat. Remember that the workers can start the fort before DevilsGate ends resistance and pops border.
Varanasi could also whip a Grocer for 2 more slots. Not sure if that leaves it with enough pop to work food and all the slots though.
Golden Age now does sound like the right call. That will make it ~6 turns to Mass Media then 4 turns of building the UN. That should be enough, since the GA will give tons of hammers to Agra's Moai-enhanced tiles.
I'd bet he switches on his own - give him a turn or two to try before we pay for a switch. Yeah if we can get more spies there, that would be great. I couldn't get spies built but I do have a galleon hanging off the west coast for that. Has anyone run the vote count to see if we need Tokugawa to win? If it's going to be close without, we should lay off the whip and grow our own population too.
Also from the Department of Amusing Tech Beelines: We can now build Rock N Roll despite not knowing Music.
Some would argue that that's not ironic at all. 
More seriously, we might want a Music trade so DevilsGate can build Culture to pop the border.
timmy827
King
Also from the Department of Amusing Tech Beelines: We can now build Rock N Roll despite not knowing Music.
Also Broadway, and soon Hollywood
T-hawk
Transcend
Just some more thoughts.
If we do Golden Age now, we absolutely must get the Economics merchant. Make sure to keep visibility on Justinian's research to look for any danger there. I think we have a margin of about 40 EP now. If we need more, OK to take EP away from Toku for that. We can run EP slider for the Toku bonk after Economics.
For Varanasi specialist slots, we could also trade for Drama and whip/build a theater, cheaper than a Grocer.
For both barbarian cities, if we happen to fall just short of capturing against very weak units, the warriors themselves can finish the job. I brought 5 so there's one to spare. Also the barb cities can build/whip more warriors before they are connected to metal.
If the Fort turns out to be the limiting factor, Serfdom can help. Or DevilsGate could whip a worker or two.
A couple airships to bomb Zhou from DevilsGate would actually be pretty useful insurance I think. If we can find an idle city to build/whip them, maybe Vijayanagara or Madras. Lower priority than a couple more spies towards Tokugawa.
Feel free to blow out techs for AI cash. Philo, Paper, Optics, PPress, Guilds, Banking are all expendable.
If we do Golden Age now, we absolutely must get the Economics merchant. Make sure to keep visibility on Justinian's research to look for any danger there. I think we have a margin of about 40 EP now. If we need more, OK to take EP away from Toku for that. We can run EP slider for the Toku bonk after Economics.
For Varanasi specialist slots, we could also trade for Drama and whip/build a theater, cheaper than a Grocer.
For both barbarian cities, if we happen to fall just short of capturing against very weak units, the warriors themselves can finish the job. I brought 5 so there's one to spare. Also the barb cities can build/whip more warriors before they are connected to metal.
If the Fort turns out to be the limiting factor, Serfdom can help. Or DevilsGate could whip a worker or two.
A couple airships to bomb Zhou from DevilsGate would actually be pretty useful insurance I think. If we can find an idle city to build/whip them, maybe Vijayanagara or Madras. Lower priority than a couple more spies towards Tokugawa.
Feel free to blow out techs for AI cash. Philo, Paper, Optics, PPress, Guilds, Banking are all expendable.
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