SGOTM 12 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

What I know from the save:
All have -8 diplo with us, declared war, war spoils relationship, nuked us (3,3,2 in that order).
No other useful info.
Projects if they're in my not appear until after end turn.

Ok comparing Neil's two tests:
1) the seaside start:

neil said:

TUrn 49:
4 pop, working gold mine, forest, fish & crabs. 100% science. 20 bpt, 5 hpt, 4 surplus fpt

Click to expand...

2) SIP 1

neil said:

Turn 48:
Pop 3, 10 bpt, 4 hpt, 6 fpt, Settler(45)

Click to expand...

3) SIP 2

neil said:

Turn 50:
Pop 4, 10 bpt, 6 hpt, 5 fpt, granary

Click to expand...

OK the seaside is stonger for science, but SIP seems to allow us to get out the settler first, or a granary if we so wish.

I will test 2 west now, using the start mentioned.

OK that was a waste of my time, it took 2 turns to settle instead of 1 at Clammy cove and growth was 0 due to radiation and only forest Grassland for working. So the onky two options are SIP and over at Clammy cove. I'm not sure what's best here.

Brian Shanahan said:

What I know from the save:
All have -8 diplo with us, declared war, war spoils relationship, nuked us (3,3,2 in that order).
No other useful info.
Projects if they're in my not appear until after end turn.

Click to expand...

OK - I think I figured it out. He gave us ICBMs at the start, revealed the map, nuked everybody, and then unrevealed the tiles and restored the conditions at start. That way the nuking our opponents would appear in the event log. This should be easy enough to replicate with one of my test saves. I'll try to update and post a save later.

I am trying variations of Clam Cove at the moment. Cows, not Gold. Worker first, warrior->WB first.

It sounds very counter-intuative, but settling at the clams, and slow building a worker first (20 turns) is actaully quite powerful. It means at turn 43, we are working Fish, Clams & 2 pastured COws. 11 surplus fpt, 5 hpt.

And I realised this, when the settler is out is not so important, if he has nowhere to settle. If we must first scrub a tile to settle, a worker is required. Otherwise, we have to settle in whatever crap position the no-fallout tiles are.

neilmeister said:

I am trying variations of Clam Cove at the moment. Cows, not Gold. Worker first, warrior->WB first.

It sounds very counter-intuative, but settling at the clams, and slow building a worker first (20 turns) is actaully quite powerful. It means at turn 43, we are working Fish, Clams & 2 pastured COws. 11 surplus fpt, 5 hpt.

And I realised this, when the settler is out is not so important, if he has nowhere to settle. If we must first scrub a tile to settle, a worker is required. Otherwise, we have to settle in whatever crap position the no-fallout tiles are.

Click to expand...

So it's basically the best version for Clammy Cove then.

Don't know, as in my first 2 attempts, I prioritised the gold over the cows. I now believe that working the cows first (and roading one of them) is probably best.


Settle: Clam Coast, attempt 4(Neil)

Techs: Fishing(8)->AH(21)->Wheel(30)->BW(43)->Agr(49)->Sailing (so city 2 can share resources)

Builds: Worker(21)->WB(35)->WB(43)->Settler(49)->Worker(53)->Warrior(54)->Warrior

Pop:
Size 1 (2) -> 1 Unhealthy
Cows Scrubbed -> Healthy
Size 2 (?) -> 1 Unhealthy
Cows connected t34, Healthy
Fish connected t36, Healthy
Size 3 (38) -> Healthy
Size 4 (41) -> 1 Unhealthy
Micro to use the fish
Clams connected t43, Healthy
Micro back to the govenor

Units:
Worker->Cows West->Scrub(28)->Pasture(31)->Road(34)->Cows->Scrub(41)->Pasture(44)->Rice->Scrub(52)->Farm
WB->Fish(36)
WB->Fish(43)
Settler-> ready to settle on the PHF on turn 52, Rice scrubbed same turn. 0% research
Worker->Gold
Warrior->MP


This means that on turn 43, Cap is working Fish, Clams, 2 pastured cows for 13 bpt, 5 hpt, 11 fpt.

Yes, we have our first warrior on t54, but with all AI starting with no units, and no barbs, I do not think this is a risk, at all.

Also, City 2 starts off working an unfarmed rice, and 4 turns later it is farmed. Sailing is due 7 turns after settling, so its health problems will disappear. If we prioritised Sailing before BW, then city 2 would never have health issues, but we wouldn't know the location of copper until after we settle. But that probably doesn;t matter too much

Looks good I'll run over the tests myself in the moring. On the tech, even with the AI having nothing, I think BW before sailing is prudent, just in case, and it'll probably allow us to plan our cities better. And maybe a warrior earlier too, just for scouting if nothing else.

I'll slot a Warrior in between the WB's, and see how that goes.

I think the biggest difference between the SIP and Clam Coast options is city 2. If we SIP, then we are taking a risk that we:
1) Have room to our West to settle 3-4 more cities at least
2) The land is good enough to settle.

If we settle the Coast, we sacrifice getting the settler out quicker, but we are not taking a risk about where to put it. Also, I think long term, the coastal position will make a much better Cap.


I have modified the test save, to give us Ecology and to put little TEST labels everywhere around our start.

Please use this new save

Sorry for spamming the thread guys.....

Settle: Clam Coast, attempt 5(Neil)

Techs: Fishing(8)->AH(21)->Wheel(30)->BW(43)->Agr(49)->Sailing (so city 2 can share resources)

Builds: Worker(21)->WB(35)->Warrior(40)->WB(45)->Settler(52)->Worker(56)->Warrior(57)

Pop:
Size 1 (2) -> 1 Unhealthy
Cows Scrubbed -> Healthy
Size 2 (?) -> 1 Unhealthy
Cows connected t34, Healthy
Fish connected t36, Healthy
Size 3 (38) -> Healthy
Size 4 (41) -> 1 Unhealthy
Lots of micro to make sure we have an almost full granary, and are 1 turn from growing to pop 5 when the WB is built
Connect Clams(45) -> Healthy
When WB is built, and we start Settler, give Micro back to the govenor
Size 5 (57), same turn as the MP Warrior is built. Healthy & Happy. Only 1 non-improved tile is being worked in the cap, and we are about to start scrubbing the gold. Once the gold is connected, we can grow to 6 pop, and also work the other gold. I don't think whipping below pop 5 will ever be worthwhile in the cap.

Units:
Worker->Cows West->Scrub(28)->Pasture(31)->Road(34)->Cows->Scrub(41)->Pasture(44)->Rice->Scrub(52)->Farm
WB->Fish(36)
Warrior->Explore
Settler-> ready to settle on the PHF on turn 55, Rice farmed in 3 turns.
Worker->Gold
Warrior->MP(57)

Yeah, I think this is better. The Rice will be farmed at the same turn, and city 2 is founded only a few turns before the farm is finished. So there is no advantage in getting City 2 any earlier.
Sailing is 4 turns away, which will solve its health issues. So, city 2 will be very productive only 4 turns after settling.

Warrior has exploered quite a bit of map in the turns he has has. I put him on auto-explore as this is just a test map after all.

OK, last post from me today, I promise.

If I swap the order of the Settler & Worker in last plan. City 2 is founded the turn after the Rice is farmed, and 1 turn before Sailing is learned.
The gold is already scrubbed, and the worker is about to start the mine when the cap hits pop 5.

I still prefer Settler before worker 2 though. As there will be no wasted turns of the rice, and it will be almost halfway building its Warrior.

Important Configuration Notice

(Apologies to anyone who already knows all this.)

1. Load the mod
2. Start a game (any game will do)
3. Use ALT-CTRL-O to bring up the BUG options
4. Choose the General tab
   • I recommend checking all the autosave boxes
5. Choose the Logging tab
   • Make sure all boxes are checked, especially Enable Logging, Start Automatically, Show IBT, Color Coding
   • 4000BC is turn 0
   • Optionally set the path and file
6. Choose Clock tab
   • I recommend checking all the boxes
7. Exit the game
8. Start one of the test games with the mod
9. Play a few turns
10. Exit the game
11. Find the log file. If you did not specify a path, it should be at C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\BUFFY_SG12\Autolog
12. Verify that you have and can find a colorful log file, which should look something like this:
    
    Spoiler :

    
    
    Which will then be displayed on the forum like this:
    
    Spoiler :

    
    Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
    ------------------------------------------------
    Turn 0 (4000 BC) [18-Sep-2010 06:52:01]
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank
    
    Turn 1 (3960 BC) [18-Sep-2010 06:52:01]
    St. Petersburg founded
    St. Petersburg begins: Worker (20 turns)
13. Open CivilizationIV.ini, which should be in C:\Documents and Settings\USERNAME\My Documents\My Games\Beyond the Sword (Where USERNAME is your Windows user name)
14. Set AutoSaveInterval = 1 and MaxAutoSaves = at least ten. Here is what I use:
    Spoiler :

    ; The maximum number of autosaves kept in the directory before being deleted.
    MaxAutoSaves = 99
    
    ; Specify the number of turns between autoSaves. 0 means no autosave.
    AutoSaveInterval = 1

Here is a new version of the test file with two changes:

1) We have nuked all the AI

It's clear from the rules discussion that this is the way to do it. And boy, do they hate us.

2) I cleaned up fallout near the AI

I figure it's better to see what the AI can do if they are in nice areas, rather than having to deal with fallout, since that's one possibility.

OK, I ran a dozen or two tests and came up with a variant of Neil's clams that I like. Note that my game is set with 4000 BC as turn 0. Also, if something completes between turns 8 and 9, I list it as turn 9.

I think we will be better off founding city 2 here:



Yes, it overlaps Ankh-Morpork significantly. That's a good thing. Ankh-Morpork has more good tiles than it can work given our happy and health limits. They can share a cow and a gold. We can connect the cities by road, avoiding an expensive research diversion into Sailing. Cleaning fallout that is in both city radii helps both cities. There is less corruption due to distance.

You might also be uncomfortable with how long I wait to build the first warrior. I think it's worth the risk. There are no barbarians, the AI seem willing to make peace fairly quickly, and worldbuilder shows the AI don't seem to send out exploring units.

Ankh-Morpork founded 1, grow 2 on 33, grow 3 on 39, grow 4 on 42, grow 5 on 52, whip 3 on 56, grow 4 on 57
Ephebe founded 50
Research: Animal Husbandry 14, Fishing 20, Wheel 29, Bronze Working 43 (revolution slavery), Agriculture 48, Pottery 55, Writing 65
Ankh-Morpork: Worker 20, Work Boat 34 (net fish), Work Boat 41 (net crab), Settler 48, Warrior 50, Warrior 54, Granary 57 (whipped), Worker 62
Ephebe: Worker 61, Granary (uncompleted)
Workers: clear fallout SE cow, pasture cow, road cow, road 2S Ankh, clear fallout rice, chop Ephebe city site, farm rice, road rice, clear fallout gold, mine gold, road gold


City views:



Here's the BUFFY log, with all the attitude changes deleted to make it easier to read.

Ok chris I'll use your save to see how quickly we'll need to work. I'll do something similar to neil's last test, especially as I was thinking about the same build path. On techs though I think I'll go BW>AH>Wheel.
I'don't think the fallout will only be concentrated around us, as it's one of the major tasks to completely illiminate it before going to Alpha Cent.

I think there will be fallout all over the place - but it's possible the AI are in neat little oasis that are clear of most fallout - or that their fallout is only on bad tiles.

I think the wheel is essential after animal husbandry in order to hook cows for the health bonus. I don't think we gain anything researching bronze working before the wheel.

neilmeister said:

When WB is built, and we start Settler, give Micro back to the govenor

Click to expand...

Horrors. Never give micro back to the governor.

neil, great work so far and really helps solidify our understanding of the Clams Coast.

I don’t think you’ve had the best test runs through the SIP option, so in the interest of just testing to see what’s best I worked on that more. For instance, you probably built too many warriors (on the Coast investing in workboats/growth instead, but surely we could invest more in growth SIP too). There was also some rather suboptimal micro – worker going after the rice before cow for instance is never worth it.

neil’s new, accurate test save.
Settle: In Place 1 (Earthling)


This is basically a fastest settler possible variant. Settler could be a little faster if the second warrior delayed, or slower if preferred - I probably should try growing to size three before the settler. Tech is pretty standard, after the Wheel we could probably take different paths without much loss, not build granary or something either if we don’t want to.

Settle: In Place 2 (Earthling)


Comments: Just builds up the capital, very safe military and exploration. Settler would be a solid build at size five and one of the workers could go out with the new city. Maybe if we were going after a wonder or something could tech to Priesthood after BW, and having forests to chop and workers around would be solid. Writing is in progress in the save instead. I do not really like this opening, doesn’t gain all too much out of settling in place, but just for comparison. If we were streamlining for one particular goal, say remove pottery from the techpath and go for the Oracle, maybe this is viable.

Settle: In Place 3 (Earthling)


Comments: Balanced and worker-heavy build, results in a lot of worker improvements and quick to both of the golds (2nd gold would be up shortly too, that’s what the workers are working on), we could do some chopping if we must, and militarily even. I would strongly favor settling the 2nd city by the northern fish in this case, it will be coastally connected so good on resources/health, it could share a gold tile maybe moving forward and pick up the fish shortly as well. After the cap’s granary if we still want that granary at size 5 either we expand more (settlers/workers) or for a wonder or something it could keep growing+chop.

This is my favorite test run so far out of the ones I have done, could try to tweak things/do better though.

edit: Chris' test runs seems to be worse off than the last one neil did, don't know how that worked out, perhaps 2nd city was too early or stunted growth in the capital too much.

I think I'll play things out with Chris' modified save just for consistency, and found city #2 near the fish as in the last variant.

Ok then it seems that we're beginning to come to a consensus about the start. I think the only way we're going to improve the path we're seeming to agree on is being anal with the micro. I will test the save a few times myself and see if I can shave a turn or two.
Only one criticism Chris, I wouldn't be naming our second city Ephebe, especially with their views on slavery.

We should always be anal about the micro.

I'm not convinced that the coast start is best yet. I think it will come out on top, but Earthling has done some really nice work on the settle in place option. Still an open argument, imho, to be decided by more tests.

I think someone should test the coast start for a fastest settler, to compare to Earthling's fast settler SIP option. I can do that tonight, but now must leave to do non-computer stuff for a while.

Right Brian, I agree we've worked out a very solid path with the Clams on the coast but I don't see that being fully better than settling in place so far, so I'll try to work out a few more tests.

I might be editing this post with another run and some screenshots shortly.

so another run and last part of the autolog (early turns match up exactly as before with this opening)

Comments - mostly similar to the 3rd save above, just settled the 2nd city and went a little further so another settler/worker in cap. There's a forest chop you're seeing in the final screens here, but basically most production after t56 is very dependent on what we want - second settler by no means necessary, could get other buildings or units or whatnot. I like building libraries early and often of course as we are creative and some quick GS would be awesome.

Screenshots: (again, 2nd city could differ depending on the map, but we know fish and overlap gold are there)







Autolog



edit: Probably spelled capital city wrong but I'll get used to it guys