SGOTM 12 - Plastic Ducks

I'm still leaning on getting GLH.

However, BIC's post makes me reconsider tech path to Fishing>Writing.

What does this accomplish?
Simple: we get to see the land with warriors and have about 20 turns more of information to help our decision.

It might push back GLH a few turns but by the date we're already looking at to get it, it probably won't change much.

Moreover, we might find a better site to build GLH - that is somewhere with trees! Combined with Mathematics, 260 hammers is only 8 forests and a few turns... granted it doesn't look as if there are that many trees around but maybe we can look with Flying Camera a bit more.

And if we elect to skip GLH, well that's the tech path we would have take anyway. The second city can put some hammers on another workboat (clams) or a warrior for scouting or the library... all 3 are good options.
 
dingding, could you move forward 6 turns when fishing finished and then upload the official saves?

Beware that 2nd worker need to build roads on the forest first while the 1st worker build road on the 2nd cow. The 2nd pasture will finished the same turn when capital grow to 2.
 
Warriors, take your swords! (or your clubs whatsoever)

Spoiler :
De Gaulle spotted! After his cap 3rd border expansion (he founded Buddhism)

I followed the growth of Paris. During the 5 turns I played, it grew from 3 to 4. Which means he's focusing on units/barrack. Let's reconsider Horse first!

On the other hand, Gandhi obtained Poly and founded Hinduism. Need to check every turn his tech path (EP on him as well).

Civ4ScreenShot1617.jpg




I need to recheck all the points:
1) Improvement of the Horse
2) GLH or/and Early military activity (chariot harassment)
3) Expansion path
4) Diplomacy

Will put the analysis later tonight.
 

Attachments

Interesting, chariots are now very appealing. Getting a 2nd capital may just be what we need to accelerate our plans to Maths/CoL.
It should be easy enough to take him on with 2 cities that are production powerhouses.

There are floodplains south of De Gaulle...

I won't insist on having 2 cities out of 2 building wonders with such a close neighbour.
 
Be that as it may, capturing a city with 40% culture, possibly on a hill with only Chariots is costly as hell.

Still... what a difference 6 turns make!
 
Wow now that's totally different.

Just as I said before, we need more information for judgment. Some of our former discussion became meaningless now and we still can not make a decision on whether chariots rushing or not, depends on AI's defense.

At least capturing workers by chariots sounds good.
What's more now we need to discuss BW. The place for bronze are both important for French and us. And if we wanna a early rush, whipping will becomes valuable.
 
Oh, and just in case anyone forgot...

To win the game:

* All fallout must be cleared
* Stalin must be defeated (dead)
* All other AIs must survive and be at peace with the player when space victory is achieved.
* Teams will not be penalized for events outside the team's control, such as:
o one AI killing the other before the team has the opportunity to prevent it
o one AI declares war on team after the launch
o one AI launch a nuke after the launch ....etc.
o any fallout that may appear on unreachable terrain does NOT need to be cleaned up.



Sure, we can look at a rush, but we can't kill him off... only cripple him.
I think the best thing is to harass him with a Chariot or two and keep him off Copper/Iron. Free workers are nice.
 
Improvement of the Horse:

I tried two tests: horse-first and gold-first, both skipped GLH.

Gold-first: make use of the gold asap (t41), so two workers improves the gold after the Cow, then both go to clean up the fallout for the second city. Second city at t47. But in this approach the second gold mine becomes relatively late (if 1st at t41, the second needs to be at t55) because 1) lose worker turn by removing fallout with 2 workers. 2) start with 2 workers => settler => 3rd worker.

Horse-first: Improve horse then two golds. Start with 3-workers. The 1st gold is available later (t47) but the second comes earlier (t50). Second city is later as well (t50).

I tried until t80. In both of the approaches, that's when I obtained CS from Oracle. So in terms of commerce, they don't have much difference. But in terms of food/hammer efficiency, I think 3-worker start + Horse-first is better because 1) the horse tile production is good; 2) Horse-first can build Chariot earlier instead of putting hammers on warriors; 3) though the 2nd city is settled later, it suffers less from unhealthiness (fallout on the cow is removed on the same time) so its growth is pretty the same in both approach until t80.

My votes change to:
1) Horse-first (3-worker if it's a relative option)
2) No GLH. (Let alone the apparency of De Gaulle is a negative factor to GLH)

Sorry I don't have the time to test Gold-first/Horst-first with GLH, but I think the results will be similar.

BTW in my tests, if skip the GLH, the third city can really be settled about 10 turns earlier than with GLH (if we suppose CS can be finished at t88 as in kossin's game). First GS before t90.

Early military activity:

I noticed Paris grew from 3 to 4 at about t30. So it has 2.4 food per turn. Iirc all the AIs focused on growth in the game, so I tent to think De Gaulle doesn't have worker at the moment (otherwise the growth can't be that slow). It seems too early to think of capturing workers!

Chariot might not be urgent.

Expansion:

Why don't we talk about that after the 1st worker scouts sth?
Anyway Duckweed's estimation of settling 10-20 cities can be a little overestimated.
 
I agree, De Gaulle's presence is the end of early GLH planning. We might consider it if it's still available after we've done some expansion but not now.

Tech becomes Writing>Myst>Medi>Poly>Math/CoL

I'll give the various approaches a try when I get home ...
 
*****UPDATED TEST GAME*****

I gave Fishing to every AI as that was the only way to do it in 5 turns as per the real game. It isn't very surprising as most AIs appear to be coastal.

Subsequently however, the test game is maybe 8:science: ahead of the test game.
 

Attachments

Clam down, guys.;) IIRC, the tiles on the left of the Ivory are coastal, which means Paris is very possibly surrounded by water tile, hence it's could be be U turn to Paris. It's very possible that Paris is more than 15 tiles away (the reason why we have not seen any French unit until now and that's almost for sure since Erkon won't let us get a capital too easy). The distance, fallout, capital culture, aggressive AI, possible hill site, are you guys want to send 10~15 chariots (1.5 GLH hammers) to capture Paris? I will definitely vote for yes if DG beats us for GLH and that's the best scenario, however I wonder he is willing to build GLH for us while he feels unsafe. So my concern for building GLH unchanged. If you are worry about the safety issue, my opinion is that it's not an issue before he set a city close by. Send the 1st warrior toward Paris and play to the end of Writing and we can see whether I make a right prediction on the map.

dingding said:
Anyway Duckweed's estimation of settling 10-20 cities can be a little overestimated.
Click to expand...

My prediction of a map rarely goes down, any continent holding 2 civs is capable. There are 4 good sites already seen (Paris, Fish/Cow/Ivory, Rice, the city ruin site).
 
For certain I'm against rushing De Gaulle... cost is way too high. Unless he has a crazy capital (but I doubt that) or as Duckweed said grabs GLH.

How does GLH fare in terms of Writing>Sailing compared to Sailing>Writing? I'll check it later after dinner.

EDIT: I was able to nab a few workers from De Gaulle in the test game with warriors, with 1 Chariot it will be even easier.
 
Seems like the 3-worker start I mentioned before.
There's another choice:make chariot when capital grow from 3 to 4, then produce settler when 4. Slower settler and faster chariot, depends on what will we get from the first chariot.

dingding said:
Improvement of the Horse:

I tried two tests: horse-first and gold-first, both skipped GLH.

Gold-first: make use of the gold asap (t41), so two workers improves the gold after the Cow, then both go to clean up the fallout for the second city. Second city at t47. But in this approach the second gold mine becomes relatively late (if 1st at t41, the second needs to be at t55) because 1) lose worker turn by removing fallout with 2 workers. 2) start with 2 workers => settler => 3rd worker.

Horse-first: Improve horse then two golds. Start with 3-workers. The 1st gold is available later (t47) but the second comes earlier (t50). Second city is later as well (t50).

I tried until t80. In both of the approaches, that's when I obtained CS from Oracle. So in terms of commerce, they don't have much difference. But in terms of food/hammer efficiency, I think 3-worker start + Horse-first is better because 1) the horse tile production is good; 2) Horse-first can build Chariot earlier instead of putting hammers on warriors; 3) though the 2nd city is settled later, it suffers less from unhealthiness (fallout on the cow is removed on the same time) so its growth is pretty the same in both approach until t80.

My votes change to:
1) Horse-first (3-worker if it's a relative option)
2) No GLH. (Let alone the apparency of De Gaulle is a negative factor to GLH)

Sorry I don't have the time to test Gold-first/Horst-first with GLH, but I think the results will be similar.

BTW in my tests, if skip the GLH, the third city can really be settled about 10 turns earlier than with GLH (if we suppose CS can be finished at t88 as in kossin's game). First GS before t90.

Early military activity:

I noticed Paris grew from 3 to 4 at about t30. So it has 2.4 food per turn. Iirc all the AIs focused on growth in the game, so I tent to think De Gaulle doesn't have worker at the moment (otherwise the growth can't be that slow). It seems too early to think of capturing workers!

Chariot might not be urgent.

Expansion:

Why don't we talk about that after the 1st worker scouts sth?
Anyway Duckweed's estimation of settling 10-20 cities can be a little overestimated.
Click to expand...
 
kossin said:
For certain I'm against rushing De Gaulle... cost is way too high. Unless he has a crazy capital (but I doubt that) or as Duckweed said grabs GLH.

How does GLH fare in terms of Writing>Sailing compared to Sailing>Writing? I'll check it later after dinner.

EDIT: I was able to nab a few workers from De Gaulle in the test game with warriors, with 1 Chariot it will be even easier.
Click to expand...

Nah, I changed my mind for Writing->Sailing when I mentioned my preference of BIC's plan.
 
I'm against either, in a bigger possibility.
But we need to keep an eye on De Gaulle. I prefer a chariot asap to get more information of De Gaulle and just try to be more flexible.

kossin said:
For certain I'm against rushing De Gaulle... cost is way too high. Unless he has a crazy capital (but I doubt that) or as Duckweed said grabs GLH.

How does GLH fare in terms of Writing>Sailing compared to Sailing>Writing? I'll check it later after dinner.

EDIT: I was able to nab a few workers from De Gaulle in the test game with warriors, with 1 Chariot it will be even easier.
Click to expand...
 
hydraculas said:
Seems like the 3-worker start I mentioned before.
There's another choice:make chariot when capital grow from 3 to 4, then produce settler when 4. Slower settler and faster chariot, depends on what will we get from the first chariot.
Click to expand...

That's 2 worker start essentially as we produce a settler after 2 workers. 3 worker start now means we start a lib instead of 4th worker.
 
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