SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

Finished! The file has been uploaded.

Nothing major happened. When our borders popped, I saw another ivory that will be in the BFC of our second city.

Here is what happened with respect to scores and pop growth:

T13: Roosevelt +5 -> grows to 3 pops; Churchill +6 -> learns a tech

T15: Gandhi +6 -> learns Masonry!!; Roosevelt goes from Annoyed to Furious

T16: Roosevelt +6 -> learns a tech. We can now see Gandhi’s demo graph.

T17: Mao +12 -> grows to 2 pops and learns a tech; Stalin +5 -> grows to 3 pops

T18: Churchill +6 -> learns a tech

T19: Stalin +6 -> learns a tech; Churchill +5 -> grows to 3 pops; De Gaulle +6 -> learns Meditation and founds Buddhism.

T20: Scores go up for land in the inner ring:

T21: Mao +5 -> grows to 3 pops

T22: OSS +22 -> 12 land tiles in second ring

T24: Gandhi + 5 -> grows to 3 pops; Stalin +6 -> learns a tech

Scores for Stalin, Churchill and Gandhi go up for land tiles in second ring:

T25: Mao +6 -> learns a tech

Scores for Mao, De Gaulle and Roosevelt go up for land tiles in the second ring:

T26: Mao +6 -> grows to 4 pops; De Gaulle +11 -> grows to 3 pops and learns a tech

T27: Churchill +6 -> grows to 4 pops

Total land squares in BFC:

Also, I talked to Stalin and he said: “Beware, our words are backed by nuclear weapons!” So I guess this confirms that he started with some Tactical Nukes even though he doesn’t know the required techs.

Note: in the screenshots, I only kept those where something changed.

Looking great!!! Mitchum, please move the autosaves files to a separate folder. We'll need to check them to figure out what techs got researched.

Gandhi hasn't founded a religion yet?!! WTH?

Land areas: you have everyone right, except Gandhi - 17k (Rival Best). I'll have a look at new data later today...

ROSTER

1. Mitchum Just played
2. shyuhe UP
3. ZPV ON DECK
4. babybluepants
5. bcool
6. LowtherCastle
7. mystyfly
8. mdy
9. Silu (lurking)
10. Soirana (lurking? erasing?)

I'll give shyuhe and ZPV 24 hrs. to post a Got It, otherwise I'll be up.

LowtherCastle said:

Looking great!!! Mitchum, please move the autosaves files to a separate folder. We'll need to check them to figure out what techs got researched.

Click to expand...

I learned my lesson and moved them to a new directory already... I didn't check the tech situation by watching the GNP data while playing the turnset. I had too much going on already. Plus, I didn't figure out on which turn AI learned techs (vs. growing or land) until I reviewed the screen shots after playing.

Let me know what to look for and/or which autosaves to upload (if uploading autosaves is an acceptable practice, that is).

babybluepants said:

Land areas: you have everyone right, except Gandhi - 17k (Rival Best). I'll have a look at new data later today...

Click to expand...

Good point. I hadn't cross referenced my calculations with the demo data yet. If we move Gandhi to 17K, the average works out as you said.

Let me rework the numbers. In the scoreboard, the +score number stays there for two consecutive turns when the land score goes up.

On T20/T21, Gandhi's score shows +14/+14. Delhi didn't grow, so it must have been +14 for land. On T24/T5, Gandhi's score shows +22/+17. On T24 on the Top 5 Cities screen, we see that Delhi grew to 3, which accounts for the extra +5 on T24. So, Gandhi's score went up 14 + 17 = +31 for land. Ours went up 16 + 22 = 38. So each land tile = 21 / 38 = .55. If we multiply 31 * .55 = 17.13 = 17.

I see what I did wrong. I just messed up my addition...

Gandhi -> 8 + 9 or 10 = 18 or 19 land tiles

should have been

Gandhi -> 8 + 9 or 10 = 17 or 18 land tiles

Issue solved.

LowtherCastle said:

By the way, guys, I revisited the Ducks question of what they researched at the beginning. I don't know how we concluded it was AH-TW-agri-fishing, because that gives them 11K power if they have 130 score points (including the necessary pop2). So the only, but only, way I can get 130score/10Kpower is wkr-rax and any combination of AH+agri and myst+fish. Then their next turnset only adds 6K power, and now they've added another 7K power. Surely they added the wheel in their second turnset (or?) so that tells me that they don't have BW, probably not math. Their second turnset also probably included ...+phood and I think they stopped now at 1480bc after a CoL slingshot. In any case, their graphs don't look very good to me at all. Graphs can be misleading, but I think their start was a disaster. Maybe they saw that Stalin had grens and, being relative newcomers to SGOTMs, feared for their lives and hurried the rax, just in case.

Click to expand...

I was thinking about this at lunch today. If they haven't researched Writing yet, the only obvious thing to build while growing your city is a Barracks, right?

I think any team that does not build a cheap Library early on is going to fall behind in the tech pace, which can have snowball effects...

LowtherCastle said:

Pop2 is necessary to get to 130 score points. How else do you get from 124 to 130? That means 1K. Add 2K for AH and you've 3K unaccounted. So TW is too much. Can't be an archer. Can only be rax.

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Ok, so if we have 118 points with 2 techs, wouldn't they have 130 with 4 (Agri-AH-TW-Fish)? They can finish these 4 on T32 exactly, with a two-worker start and clear/pasture cow first.

babybluepants said:

Ok, so if we have 118 points with 2 techs, wouldn't they have 130 with 4 (Agri-AH-TW-Fish)? They can finish these 4 on T32 exactly, with a two-worker start and clear/pasture cow first.

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Yes. And AH (2K) and TW (4K) account for their power jump of 6K.

I tried following through on Life Expectancy data, but I think they're def. hooking up resources now. That makes it near-impossible to track. My results from earlier today suggest very low health numbers for all but Roosevelt (for some reason). Seems like a serious lack of forests on this map. We haven't found any beyond our BFC thus far, which would seem to confirm this. I doubt we can find more info there...

babybluepants said:

Ok, so if we have 118 points with 2 techs, wouldn't they have 130 with 4 (Agri-AH-TW-Fish)? They can finish these 4 on T32 exactly, with a two-worker start and clear/pasture cow first.

Click to expand...

Okay, I found the discrepancy, but don't understand it. On T32 in our test save, we have 33 (21/1244) for the land tiles. In the real save we get 38 points from 21 tiles (didn't write down the exact number of total tiles). Mybe the equation factors in the total amount of tiles on the map?

Anyway, yes, no doubt we're back to our original thought: Ducks researched TW for 4K. So they didn't build rax, didn't go to pop2 and the only question remains is whether they researched agri before or after AH (or at all). So their game isn't a disaster (yet), but I still think the earlier library is worth more than the 20% bonus they got for agri or whatever. Furthermore, what did they build instead of library? Settler? Worker? Time will tell.

Help! What's the formula for calculating the barb food growth threshold for each population?

@Mitchum
1. When did TW go from GNP19 to GNP20 (with 10 base )? T13/T17?
2. When did Mysticism go from GNP19 to GNP20 (with 10 base )? T18/T19/T24/T25?

This is what I've got so far, mostly speculations:
1. If Church = TW/T13 => Stalin = TW(T9) + Fish(T0)
2. If TW/GNP(20) => Mao = TW(T17) => either StalinTW(T9) or ChurchTW(T13), but not both.
3. If TW/GNP(21) + OSS /= TW => Stalin = TW(T9) AND ChurchTW(T13)

LowtherCastle said:

Okay, I found the discrepancy, but don't understand it. On T32 in our test save, we have 33 (21/1244) for the land tiles. In the real save we get 38 points from 21 tiles (didn't write down the exact number of total tiles). Mybe the equation factors in the total amount of tiles on the map?

Click to expand...

Yes. For both pop and land, but I don't know the formula. There are only 1080 land tiles in the real save.

Ok, I'm definitely sold on LC's plan to grow to 5 asap. Start working the horse on T40 to complete library in sync with growth to 4. My previous MM resulted in about the same thing. I'll see if I can tinker with the amount of overflow food/hammers we get by this turn.

I like teching Pottery after Fishing in this scenario, so we can grow to 5 with granary. The delay on PH is insignificant, IMHO. We'd need to make this decision before playing through the library, which should be the length of the next set (or, should it be through Wheel-Fishing only?).

babybluepants said:

Ok, I'm definitely sold on LC's plan to grow to 5 asap. Start working the horse on T40 to complete library in sync with growth to 4. My previous MM resulted in about the same thing. I'll see if I can tinker with the amount of overflow food/hammers we get by this turn.

I like teching Pottery after Fishing in this scenario, so we can grow to 5 with granary. The delay on PH is insignificant, IMHO. We'd need to make this decision before playing through the library, which should be the length of the next set (or, should it be through Wheel-Fishing only?).

Click to expand...

I am mostly worried where we lost half team... Actually the half i like the most.

LowtherCastle said:

1. When did TW go from GNP19 to GNP20 (with 10 base )? T13/T17?

Click to expand...

The Wheel went from GNP 19 to GNP 20 on T17. That means Mao became the third AI to learn The Wheel on T17 and option 2 (either Stalin or Churchill knows it) looks correct. FYI, researching Writing rather than TW on T12 earned us at least 5 free beakers (we would not have gotten the extra beaker on T12 to T16 inclusive). If two more AI learn TW in the next 8 turns, we'll even get a few more. 5 beakers (50% of our base beaker output per turn) won't make or break our game, but hey, we'll take anything we can get, right?

LowtherCastle said:

2. When did Mysticism go from GNP19 to GNP20 (with 10 base )? T18/T19/T24/T25?

Click to expand...

Mysticism went from GNP 19 to GNP 20 on T18. That means Churchill became the third AI to learn Mysticism on T18. The other two are obviously Gandhi and De Gaulle.


At the start, three AI know Agriculture (Roosevelt, De Gaulle and Mao). Our GNP is 20 because 3 AI know the tech. On T27, our GNP is still 20, which means that only one other AI could have learned Agriculture so far.

LC, I assume that you were watching the average power each turn to determine whether it was possible for an AI to have learned AH (2K), Mining (2K), Sailing (2K) or The Wheel (4K). Obviously, just because the power went up doesn't mean that one of these techs was learned; it could have been a unit was built. But, if the power did NOT go up, the none of these techs could have been learned. Just stating the obvious to make sure...

Soirana said:

I am mostly worried where we lost half team... Actually the half i like the most.

Click to expand...

Does that mean you don't like LC, BBP and me?

EDIT: I saw that shyuhe had submitted a BOTM game in the last few days, so he should be around somewhere... The others may be Civ V casualties.

shyuhe and mysty said they'd be very busy IRL for a few weeks. I'm still expecting them to be back, 'cause they always are. Hopefully our ridiculous MM debates aren't turning them off completely. I'll PM them later today.

No idea about the rest - I guess Civ5 casualties as Mitchum said. I was hoping either Silu or ZPV would stick around for consult.

Are you guys willing to continue with just 3-4 players? I'm actually getting really sick of Civ/CFC lately and I'm not playing any more games, but this one is really interesting. So, I'm happy to continue, as long as we can keep some good discussion going.

Maybe we should speed it up a bit, too. I think I could just play through the library in a couple of days, and then we can have another TS right after.

don't know i guess it is time to enter post deletion mode again.

At any rate i was not intending to play as i do not see myself doing reinstall to fit HoFame requirements.

And Civ V sucks rather hardly