SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

Currency gives us a very good chance to get peace with almost everyone quickly. Sometimes that extra 20 gold we can throw in can save us 200 or more worth of tech to achieve peace. In addition to letting us sell the cheap techs that we had to research to get to the oracle. Usually you can get at least enough gold from selling those to pay for themselves.

Getting peace and open borders sooner rather than later opens up the possibility of overseas trade routes.
 
bcool said:
Currency gives us a very good chance to get peace with almost everyone quickly. Sometimes that extra 20 gold we can throw in can save us 200 or more worth of tech to achieve peace. In addition to letting us sell the cheap techs that we had to research to get to the oracle. Usually you can get at least enough gold from selling those to pay for themselves.

Getting peace and open borders sooner rather than later opens up the possibility of overseas trade routes.
Click to expand...

We are in different wagon here. We do not want save techs after we get peace. Feck, we should want to push general technology level up.

At least if you plan get some techs from AI later on.

What does it changes?.. well, i would not plant second city towards hostile AI with two warriors. If we delay city we might delay some techs as well [let say swap Fishing and Agri]
 
Ok, played 1t.
Spoiler :




Turn 36 - 2560 BC
Gandhi grows to 4
Roosevelt grows to 5

Edit: do I need to upload this save, or can I just wait 'till the TS is over?

Edit2: I'm for continuing south with the warrior, and finishing Fishing as per previous plan.
 
We are in different wagon here. We do not want save techs after we get peace. Feck, we should want to push general technology level up.
Click to expand...

We want the cheapest deals possible here. If we save a tech in the peace trade we can sell it for gold later on. Or get a relationship boost when they demand it from us.

It is easy to sell techs for gold but will be difficult to trade techs unless we really push for good relations with them. Those negative modifiers will make productive tech trading difficult with most of the AI (except Gandhi).

And we will likely have to go to war with most of the AI to clean up their fallout. (Gifting them Ecology will not ensure they clean it up themselves. Any fallout in their cultural borders outside of the fat crosses of their cities will not be cleaned up by them.)
If they are all have advanced technology those wars will be very costly.
 
I am for going on as per plan too.

As trades goes Ghandi is not so special case. You can trade at least with Americans at nearly same relations.

Later on we most likely will end with some religion friends. My worry by the time they might not have much to offer.

As selling goes. If we only played on Deity:) On emperor in my experience AI's have pathetic sums of gold.
 
bbp, I think you waste turns moving that warrior south. The other warrior will be done in 1t and will be almost as far south as the first one, by the first one gets tothe south.

Otherwise, I'm fine on playing till you finish FIshing.
 
Soirana said:
As trades goes Ghandi is not so special case. You can trade at least with Americans at close relations.
Click to expand...
Gandhi will trade at Furious if we're not his worst enemy. Roosy has to be at Cautious AND not be WE. He's starting at -5 with 0 hidden, so we'll need +3 visible before he'll trade. That might not happen in the BCs. Gandhi is the key to trading for techs in the early game.

Roosy might be a good choice in the long run, though, to get up to Friendly. We could barely do it with him, not including Favorite CIvic plusmods, plus he's the only one in the game with a reasonably accessible Favorite CIvic (mercantilism). All the others are fairly late in the game. It's conceiveable we could get Roosy to Friendly (+15 visible) before Constitution.
 
LowtherCastle said:
Gandhi will trade at Furious if we're not his worst enemy. Roosy has to be at Cautious AND not be WE. He's starting at -5 with 0 hidden, so we'll need +3 visible before he'll trade. That might not happen in the BCs. Gandhi is the key to trading for techs in the early game.

Roosy might be a good choice in the long run, though, to get up to Friendly. We could barely do it with him, not including Favorite CIvic plusmods, plus he's the only one in the game with a reasonably accessible Favorite CIvic (mercantilism). All the others are fairly late in the game. It's conceiveable we could get Roosy to Friendly before Constitution.
Click to expand...

You got trading with Ghandi in test without being close to AD? I for exapmle somehow miserably fail...
 
Soirana said:
You got trading with Ghandi in test without being close to AD? I for exapmle somehow miserably fail...
Click to expand...
I've had tests with trading Gandhi in the 1400BCs, but those included Gandhi having Hinduism and meeting someone with BUddhism...

It depends on three things basically: 1) Getting DoP with him, which is easy with Currency; 2) having a tech to trade for his techs, which would then be Math after he gets Writing; and 3) he has to meet someone who becomes his WE (dG or Stalin work best, maybe Mao, Roosy and Churchill won't work without different religions, but Gandhi has no religion). The first two we obviously can control. The third is based on luck, unless we use the Soirana Trick: gift Gandhi a podunk city next to de Gaulle...:D

EDIT: Of course, we could also do 3) get Gandhi up to Cautious and then he's not our WE any more either, but that's harder, especially the later we get DoP because the Far Trade Value for gifted TEchs goes down turn by turn from T0 in this game. We're lucky to get +1 for a handful of cheap techs at 1400BC.

EDIT2: I've also had several tests in which Gandhi demands some stupid tech from us, which gives us a +1. :) So we should consider saving a cheap tech or two to bait him with.
.
 
Example: Why we don't want the AIs to have Common War Plusmods

In the 1400BC save (Currency slingshot) I attached above, Mao and CHurchill have met and already have +3 War. That puts Churchill at Pleased with Mao. That means Churchill will refuse to be bribed to DoW Mao. If we want to get CHurchill up to Friendly, we'll need Common War Plusmods with him.

Now, Mao and de Gaulle are two AIs in this game CHurchill is more likely to hate (he'll hate Gandhi the most). If he becomes Pleased with both of them, we can forget about Friendly with him, unless he DoWs someone we don't mind DoWing.

That's the point, folks. AI attitude manipulation in this scenario is very tricky and we're walking a tightrope trying to get anyone up to Friendly.
 
Ok, I've played. I thought the existing warrior could make it 1t further to locating DG while we finish Fishing, but I went with LC's suggestion and explored the north with it instead. It didn't make a difference, as Fishing sped up by a turn anyway. We still don't know much more about what his BFC looks like, but it does look like a body of water between us.

Spoiler :






Turn 36 - 2560 BC
Roosevelt grows to 6
Gandhi grows to 4

Turn 37 - 2520 BC
Gandhi discovers Agriculture
DG grows to 5

Turn 38 - 2480 BC
Mao discovers BW
Churchill grows to 6

Turn 39 - 2440 BC
Mao adopts Slavery

Turn 40 - 2400 BC
We discover Fishing
Churchill discovers a tech
Roosevelt grows to 7

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 2600 BC to 2400 BC:


Turn 38, 2480 BC: Moscow has grown to size 3.
Turn 38, 2480 BC: Mao Zedong adopts Slavery!

Turn 39, 2440 BC: You have discovered Fishing!


I'll edit in a summary of AI score increases / demo stuff later (have to run now). Gandhi discovered Agriculture.
 
We're still on previous plan (grow to 4 on T42, library complete T43) - I've switched to working horse before saving. The workers are finishing clearing the gold. One of them could road the horse next turn to allow for a chariot after library. If we can confirm different land masses next turn, we could also stick with our original plan? Basically the deviation is roading horses.

We now need to decide on our next tech. I'm for Pottery - we could use putting hammers into a granary as we grow further, we'll need it soon anyway, and it lets us delay a decision on the Oracle.
 
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Trading with Gandhi:
The value of techs given away is turn-dependent. The sooner we get DoP and the cheaper, the easier it is to get OB for further plusmods. Keeping something back allows for a demand plusmod, as LC suggested. I've also been able to trade pre-1000 BC (don't remember exactly when) - it requires gifting something in the Math+ beaker range, more than that after 1000 BC. Opening up trading with Roos is certainly possible, but probably not before religious blocks form and and we have to choose one. At least OB with him should be doable for mroe international TRs. Since Gandhi isn't getting a religion for some reason, the religion situation should be interesting in the real game...
 
Got the save and made a test game that matches the current save (if you find any differences let me know)

I think we have a bit more research invested in the test game (but the food and hammers match)
 
I may have set de Gaulle up a bit too well, he builds the oracle ~1520 BC. Faster than I can build it in the test game.

oracle beeline, I teched mysticism, meditation, Phood
built a settler then barracks while waiting for oracle tech to finish

pottery first, I teched pottery, mysticism, meditation, Phood
built a settler then granary, 2 more warriors (lost oracle last turn)

I noticed that de Gaulle's borders aren't spreading to our landmass in the test game, but they are in the real game, so maybe he is connected. Maybe it connects down south.
 
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