SGOTM 12 - Plastic Ducks

Duckweed · Oct 18, 2010

Log

Spoiler :

Pretty much went as planned, especially the roading worker was forced to go back exactly the same turn, but by English.

T110 -- Made peace with Roosevelt at the price of Alpha + Med

T115 -- the trade route with Roosevelt connected, gifted him 4 resources for free, but the trade route disconnected a couple turns later and resumes on T120, I'd suggest gift 5 resource for that 1g, a better deal than last one! :rolleyes:

Spoiler :

T120 -- 2 English units arrive at the right time, our 1st maceman is ready to defend the hill.

A French swordmand and an archer come next. I guess DG Has gathered a considerable units already. We need need 4~5 macemans for the 1st wave now, I prefer the 1st maceman goes for medical line. Meanwhile, our poor chariot killed an English Axeman and now has been chased by an English spearman from west.

Spoiler :

The Pig site turns out to be great, there are 2 more new health resources. Nothing new in the northeast map. Gandhi completed Construction as expected, he should be heading for either Aes or Feudalism now.

Spoiler :

War and more expansion next, After SP finish TC, it'd better to whip a settler to claim the Rice site, which could help capital grow 1 or 2 cottages.

kossin · Oct 18, 2010

Looks good!

From what I recall of my last longer test... we'll need 6+ macemen and 4+ catapults (sacrifice for hill city) since DG has been spamming troops a lot...

Can't start my set before Wednesday, Tuesdays long busy days for me.

Anyone else welcome to chime in

Duckweed · Oct 19, 2010

Most of French units should be in the eastern border city, which is on a flat tile and has a hill adjacent to it. 4 Macemans should be safe to stay there. Send 4 macemans plus 1 cat and that's enough to grind most of French units in that city. Wait for reinforcement to advance. The benefit is that we could produce a GG earlier. I'd like to see the 3rd~5th cats to be level 3, so that the bombardment can be more efficient. We probably need to take out the Chinese Ivory city as soon as possible, otherwise WEs could be a trouble.

Duckweed · Oct 19, 2010

Took a look at the culture chart and tried to look inside every team's strategy.

BD -- settled on coast
CM -- settled on coast
FE -- settled on coast, burned the 1st GS for Math and took CS from Oracle
MS -- settled on coast, worker->Settler start
OSS -- SIP, completed Oracle and took CS ~1000BC, is it possible to do it without bulbing Math?
PR -- quite strange from their T27 culture (118), the only reason I could think is that they settled on coast and started a settler right from beginning.
T.. -- SIP, focus on military
US -- settled on coast
X -- settled on coast

Teams settling on coast could be a little competitive if they grab the GLH. I guess OOS is the only one take a strategy close to us. But did not prioritize GLH.

kossin · Oct 19, 2010

About my observations also.
~~Any chance PR went early Writing?~~ Nope, definitely settler first.

Coastal teams have a huge initial development setback so even with GLH I do not forsee them being contenders much.

OSS:
Our earliest date for Oracle was 925BC... and that included no GLH.
I suppose it is possible they did not bulb Math if they ran max commerce tiles and scientists in second city plus earlier Library (which they seem to have gotten).

Duckweed · Oct 20, 2010

I think OSS should bulb Math to achieve pre-1000BC Oracling CS. My test managed a T78 Oracle, but did not go with extreme commerce, so the possible earliest date could be T77. It sees that OSS also researched BW from their score drop in 1000BC (Or they traded BW from Gandhi, that needs luck), Therefore, Bulbing Math is the only explanation.

Their habit do not change.

kossin said:
Coastal teams have a huge initial development setback so even with GLH I do not forsee them being contenders much.

They could be competitive with teams SIP but do not grab GLH. Teams going for wonders (GLH, Oracle) will get better result than Teams without wonders regardless of SIP or settling on coast.

kossin · Oct 20, 2010

Another possibility from OSS (requires some more religion luck however):
-make Peace with Gandhi (he changes WE due to religion)
-buy Math+BW with CoL after part research.

Drop in score is obviously from Bureau+Slavery revolt on same turn.

Anyway, this is more luck-reliant but I wouldn't dismiss it.
Still I'd prefer they bulbed Math again

EDIT: Your pictures are down... too much bandwidth :lol:

(Reason why I switched to imageshack)

Think I've got pretty much the important stuff updated for the test game.

kossin · Oct 20, 2010

T120
Sell 4 surplus resources+horses to Roosevelt

Rostov workers keep roading west
New city: wb/granary (not much difference)

Yakutsk galley goes to 1SW pigs

Rostov switch to Settler, whip

Mace sent to hill, give Combat 1 (in test game, they attack the Mace... low odds but better safe than sorry?)

Warrior moves out of sight from DG troops
Chariot takes a peek at Ivory city, also a peek at DG north, pillage cottage if opportunity shows [where is the Spear?]

T121 R 0%
wb east can either scout around a bit and wait for city or go south... I prefer stick around after scouting a bit north.

Moscow
2 workers to 1S Moscow (SF)
Start another Macemen
Send mace 2W

Novgorod galley 2E
Start wb

Rostov
Settler to Novgorod
Resume forge

T122 R 100%
2nd Mace to hill (DG should be close by)
1st Mace can kill Archer at 98.23% odds (2xp)

Galley by island unload settler+worker on pig, head back 3S Moscow

Moscow
2 workers SF

Novgorod
settler boards galley
Galley to 1-tile island with 2 clams

Yekaterinburg
2nd pop on clams PH 2H

T123 R 0% start Aesthetics+Literature path
Vladivostok founded between pigs-sheep, start granary
Worker pasture pigs

Rostov
Worker W goes to deer
Queue settler (1 turn, whip on T125 after growth)

Yekaterinburg
Whip granary

Moscow 4th Mace
Worker to 2S1E Moscow (SF)

Novgorod takes Cow from SP and on it

SP
Cow -> lake
Start settler from Corn+Bronze city

T124 R 100%
Rostov
worker I
workers west: 1 road deer, the other road city spot (between fish, corn, accelerates city by 1 turn)

Yekaterinburg start wb

T125 R 0%
Novgorod 2nd worker I on same tile

Moscow starts another Mace (5)

Rostov whip settler
...

Need to finish up later but that's what I tried so far.

Duckweed · Oct 20, 2010

kossin said:
EDIT: Your pictures are down... too much bandwidth (Reason why I switched to imageshack)

Yeah, partially due to the 2 threads in CiV. I get a Imageshack account now.

@your plan

Will run some tests tonight. From the 1st glance, there are a few different thoughts.

Duckweed · Oct 20, 2010

The major difference is the site of 11th city in your plan (the Corn/Copper site), and the site of 9th city in my mind (the 3W site of capital).

This site can be settled on T125, it's a gain on commerce as well due to shortest distance to capital. Moreover, it will has the wet Rice soon and can help to grow 1 or 2 cottage for capital. I don't have high interest in the Corn/copper as it's big negative on commerce for quite a long time due to the long distance from capital and increasing colonial fee due to 3 cities on that continent. IMO, a settler from Yek to claim it sometime should be sufficient. I'm more interested in the northern island if there's seafood around.

T120

Warrior stays, French units are going to chase down, retreat to PH, be careful of the Chinese archer around, Yes, it's still alive and nearby.

. As a result, the 2 workers in Moscow can go to clean the Rice site next turn.

Northeast WB should go back to culture border to save outgoing unit fee. There's nothing to be scout northeast.

The only safe place for the poor chariot to stay now is the Chinese border, should take a chance to escape to the Southern fallout area.

New city produces Gra, let Yek whip WB for other 2 cities.

T121

Mos(2 workers go 2W SF, later the worker on silk will join to clear the site and improve the rice)

T122

Galley keeps scouting the north island and east. Yek(2nd citizen on clam is fine)

T123

Mos(Cat), Ros( the closer worker goes to Fur Camp)

T124

Mos(Maceman), SP(whip settler, Lake to hill), Ros(ourside worker to Wine)

T125

Mos(whip maceman), 9th city settled, SP(Barrack)

kossin · Oct 20, 2010

Colonial Maintenance: Vassals are off so there is no colonial maintenance.

Will look at your proposition after dinner.

Duckweed · Oct 20, 2010

Totally forgot that vassals are off. :blush:

That site will still be commerce drain. Shipping a settler from Mainland takes a dozen of turns? Yek could produce one settler in about the same time.

kossin · Oct 20, 2010

Will revise things tomorrow evening... no more civ time tonight.

I like the city 3W of Capital - hydraculas would scream at us for delaying it so long

I guess now that we'll have 4 intercontinental cities more aren't as good yes... unless they are fairly close/rigged with resources.

I'll look over the micro for Yek... working the 2H tile means more hammers and more food from granary... you probably end up something like 1F2H-3C.

Other cities are tricky... we want to get the food up ASAP but granaries are better than clams for certain. Not so sure about Fish but it's kinda irrelevant for the pig+sheep city.

EDIT: X-Post: Yea vassals off is going to be a bummer as we can't eliminate DG either... going to be stuck with at least 1 of his cities putting culture on us.

Duckweed · Oct 20, 2010

Well, he picked a good site, but not in the right time.

The fish tile for the pig city should get a high priority. That's 5F3C tile. Imo, when TC is available, the 1st citizen should shift from 3F to the 2F3C tile before 6F tile is available. Yek can whip 3WBs at size 2, 1st to the Fish/Clam city, 2nd to the Pig city, 3rd for itself.

The culture issue can be solved easily, settle a new city for them before taking the last city of their own.

Edit: Make a plan of longer set, you can always stop if necessary.

kossin · Oct 20, 2010

Re: Plan
Yea, I'll make at least 10 turns of plan. I'll run a few 20-turns tests to get a better idea of the larger picture.

Duckweed · Oct 21, 2010

I'm surprised that some teams totally skipped both GLH and Oracle. 7 teams settled on coast should be aware of the existence of islands nearby fair early and have little problem to grab GLH pre-1000BC, and Oracle is also a safe bet if aim for something smaller than CS. I'm so curious about how US could maintain such a low score in 800BC.

kossin · Oct 21, 2010

Well, we already know coast settlers get a big disadvantage at startup... it does snowball after a while. A lot of unhealthiness to deal with too!

I'd be more concerned about the teams doing well than the ones straying in the wrong direction...

Going to work on plan now!

Duckweed · Oct 21, 2010

FE did a lot better. The disadvantage of settling on coast mainly shows in middle to late stage when capital can grow to the size when coastal capital has to work the water tiles. Coastal capital actually outperform SIP when the 2 seafoods are up.

kossin · Oct 21, 2010

->No citizen automation
->keep binary research

T120
Sell 4 surplus resources+horses to Roosevelt

Rostov workers keep roading west
New city: wb/granary (not much difference)

Yakutsk galley goes to 1SW pigs

Rostov switch to Settler, whip

Mace sent to hill, give Combat 1 (in test game, they attack the Mace... low odds but better safe than sorry?)

Warrior moves out of sight from DG troops
Chariot takes a peek at Ivory city, also a peek at DG north, pillage cottage if opportunity shows [where is the Spear?]

T121 R 0%
wb east goes to cities SOUTH

Moscow
2 workers to 3W Moscow (SF)
Start another Macemen
Send mace 2W

Novgorod galley 2E
Start wb

Rostov
Settler to Novgorod
Resume forge

T122 R 100%
2nd Mace to hill (DG should be close by)
1st Mace can kill Archer at 98.23% odds (2xp)

Galley by island unload settler+worker on pig, continues scouting islands nearby for good spots

Moscow
2 workers SF

Novgorod
settler boards galley
Galley to 1-tile island with 2 clams

Yekaterinburg
2nd pop on clams PH 2H

T123 R 0% start Aesthetics+Literature path
Vladivostok founded between pigs-sheep, start granary, work 2F3C fish
Worker pasture pigs

Rostov
Worker W camps nearest fur
Queue settler (1 turn, whip on T125 after growth)

Yekaterinburg
Whip granary

Moscow Catapult
Worker to W rice (SF)

Novgorod takes Cow from SP and on it

SP
Cow -> lake
Start settler

T124 R 100%
Rostov
worker I
workers west: road city spot (between fish, corn, accelerates city by 1 turn)

Yekaterinburg start wb

Moscow (Macemen)
workers west: 2 SF, 1 irrigate Rice

SP whip settler [work hammer tiles]

T125 R 0%
Novgorod 2nd worker I on same tile

Moscow whip Mace

Rostov whip settler [focus on food first]

SP settler to 3W Moscow, settle new city (gra, 3F tile)
SP start barracks [Ivories, fish, lake]

T126
Nov whip wb

SP takes cows and on it

Vladivostok on 6F pig

Smolensk 2 workers go 1E of city to irrigate

Start marching 3 Maces + 1 catapult S (2 Maces on their way)

T127
Smolensk 3rd worker irrigates

Orenburg founded, works 2F3C, starts wb
1 worker I corn

Yaroslav whip granary

Yekaterinburg whip wb

Vladivostok worker roads pig (lose 3F here, gain 1F in capital due to health)

Settler disembark on 2-clams island

Novgorod wb (2nd clams east)
wb moves east
1 worker SE I
1 worker to Rostov, SW (SF)

Moscow Mace
SP Mace

T128
Rostov worker on furs goes 3W2S SF+C
worker SW SF

Found new city (granary)
Galley goes back home

Moscow whip Mace [I need to figure a way to optimize the hammer OF to finish TGL in 1 turn]
2 workers go NW Moscow, cottage+cancel

Smolensk worker goes S to continue road (move 3 tiles, SF+C)

Novgorod (library)

T129 R - Calendar (?)
Moscow TGL
2 workers chop forests

Man this is getting complexer by the turn... I'll revise this again tomorrow. Timings mostly seem to work from what I've got down so far.

Duckweed · Oct 21, 2010

Will wait for your revised plan and look further.

T120 -- If you let the warrior retreat this turn, chance is that the french units will go to the Rice tile and ruin the entire plan.

T121 -- How many turns will the WB takes to arrive the Southern city? My impression is that the WB whipped from Yek will be faster. Therefore the current WB can be used for the 2 clam site. Nov can then whip a worker instead of 2nd WB. Schedule the WB to go for the 2 clam city. Want to send the CM along with the settler? It will let the 2 clam city start to work the clam 1 turn earlier and save 1g per turn.

T124 -- Ros (worker road the city site? That city is also commerce drain now, not sure whether 1 turn earlier is worth the 3 worker turn)

T126 -- Nov whip WB? probably no need now. Mos(2nd cat before 5th maceman, so that macemans could attack earlier)

T129 R to Music if Gandhi get Lit. Otherwise Phi.

BTW, you did not mentioned the move of WB from Yek.

SGOTM 12 - Plastic Ducks

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