SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

LowtherCastle · Nov 8, 2010

okay I'll play sometime tomorrow morning, after a dry run or two.

babybluepants · Nov 8, 2010

bcool said:
GP Farm has quite a few grassland tiles for cottages, and it will be up and running sooner than any captured city and it will has a nice decent food surplus for a few scientists and after Paris go down it will have a decent amount of hammers.

I do realize I have an almost irrational hate on for cottages

mischief

, but non-river non-FIN grass that doesn't even get worked 'till something like 1000 AD really doesn't seem any good to me. That city could, for instance, have a +24fpt post-Bio surplus at size 8 if we farmed 3 grass. :eek:

Moscow is set up to get Oxford immediately, has bureau and an existing academy, as well as 2 gold and 2 silk, which is as good as 4 instant towns or better. If you guys wanna cottage the two river grass, I wouldn't object. Settled specialists with Rep would be awesome, too.

bcool said:
Leaves Moscow to be the Iron Works City (and perhaps the Wall Street City or Heroic Epic). Moscow can focus on growth (farms instead of cottages) and it can focus on hammer production without sacrificing some research production.

This is a problem. Really we'd want Moscow to do everything, but it obviously can't. My reasoning is simply that we can get Oxford up and giving us a major return significantly faster with Moscow than any other currently visible city. This translates into getting through the Communism/conquest era more efficiently (I imagine).

That said, it's certainly open to discussion for now...

bcool · Nov 8, 2010

I basically agree with you. I just was putting it out there. Might be interesting to look at the long term potential of a non-Moscow Oxford for comparison.
I agree we would get Oxford in Moscow much earlier, and it has a decent amount of commerce already. The fully cottaged Oxford Univ city can have quite an amazing output is all. I think we could get cottages earlier than 1000 AD.

babybluepants · Nov 8, 2010

Glad we agree.

bcool said:
The fully cottaged Oxford Univ city can have quite an amazing output is all.

Sure, in theory.
I think cottages are confusing because we call them all cottages, when in fact there are different categories of land improvement: various combinations of FIN vs. non-FIN, bureau vs. non-bureau and river vs. non-river (though some of those combinations may be equivalent). There's a world of difference between:
1) FIN leader with 5 FP's in the capital's BFC, which are towns by the time you discover Educ & PP.
2) Non-FIN non-river grass, that's still covered in fallout by 1 AD, in the BFC of a size 2-3 non-capital with no infrastructure yet built.

bcool · Nov 8, 2010

LC,

a few random ideas.

If you capture workers you can consider taking them past Lyons and scrubbing the stone if only to set up future worker steals as you mentioned before. However, it might be best to take them home asap.

Siberia:lib(partial)-settler(2pop)-lib-forge(partial)-settler(2pop)

What about a worker instead of one of the settlers now that HS is delayed? Are we just limiting GP Farm's growth with bananas city and limited workers available.

--Are we convinced the HS is necessary? I request you stop before investing hammers into it. Just to reassess the risk of failure and the benefits.

What about the 2nd GS after we produce 1 in Pigs? With the HS we will only have about 17 turns before Moscow produces a great person. I guess the plan is to build the NE in Pigs sooner rather than later which would solve that problem.

Oxford in GP Farm (I guess this idea was silly since it would take so long to build there. But the scientists we could run there would be pretty darn good. Rather than cottages, a significant amount of :science:

could come from the scientists under representation. 6 scientists equals the commerce produced by the tiles around Moscow, long term it might make sense. And once we develop some cottages we might transfer the capital there.)

babybluepants · Nov 9, 2010

From the Maintenance Thread:

Gumbolt said:
I do wonder about the 3 month period. I don't know how early space race you can get with the game setting and all the fallout but I would guess many teams are well away from completing the game.

We have just over 1 month left? I am guessing many teams are well over 100+ turns from completing the game. How set in stone is this deadline. I realise the game time was reduced due to civ 5.

I don't want any team to give away how many turns left they think their game has but maybe a sentiment to weather they can complete the game in time. It will serve no purpose if all teams struggle with 3 month deadline.

Certainly with many global teams it is tough to get everyone online at the same time.

AlanH said:
I'm happy to accept a plea for an extension .. as long as it's backed by a reasonable number of teams.

Civ5 drove the start date rather than the end date. My primary reason for the December deadline was to avoid the Christmas family holiday season. If you guys are happy to continue into January, please say so. But we should do it now rather than when teams have compromised their later games by rushing.

What do you guys think our response should be?

@LC, playing today? :whipped:

bcool · Nov 9, 2010

I think we should vote for extending the deadline.

babybluepants · Nov 9, 2010

I'd certainly be for an extension, if it was a consensus among all teams. Some teams are def. much further ahead. It wouldn't feel right if they got punished for having done a better job time-managing.

bcool · Nov 9, 2010

Sure a consensus would be the best. We should pick up the pace regardless.

with that in mind, I withdraw my minor concern about starting the HS.

LowtherCastle · Nov 9, 2010

Turnset Report T115-T124
In a nutshell, we got three The's: Colossus, Pyramids, and ology.

GLib(1).

T115
Roosy has MC :eek:

Now we've got a race on our hands. He has 1/2 price forges, copper, industrious, slavery, and a capital of pop10!
I decide not to trade Roosy for OBs. I want his techs for failed gold and I'm not sure how much we'd have to cough up. Anyway, we won't need Construction for a while.
Deer to dG for 1gpt (help Rheims grow to pop2)
No techs to dG for 50g (Alpha gives him spies, Math gives him better chops).

T116
Two dG workers offer themselves up for sacrifice. We name them W12 & W13.
S.wb spies sheep and spices and tundra @33 degrees S!
Stalin has writing. We DoP for Alpha+Math.
Gold to Mao for 2gpt.

T117
We settle Cuba
CeaseFire dG, wkrs safely home (2 separate captures = CF in 1t)
Spy new worker too close to Orleans. Didn't think of pillaging his ivory to invite new workers until too late. :wallbash:

Orleans borders should expand, making it hard to capture new workers. :cry:

Deer to dG for 1gpt
TRs with Roosy finally!
TR income: 26cpt (12 internal / 14 Gandhi)
S.wb sees iron

T118
We become literate, switch from cave drawings to hieroglyphics. Machinery @0%.
Churchill cautiously meets a pleased Roosy
Silk to Mao for 1gpt
Churchill settles Canterbury in a stupid place in the landmass

T119
Orleans borders pop. :sad:

T120
We settle the Bahamas, TR income up to 33cpt!
dG worker is chopping forest SSW of Orleans. :banana:

Dangerous steal, but WTH. All three of our units pile on.
TR income drops from 33cpt to 29cpt after DoW. Not too bad.
Roosy connected to TR despite DoW so we trade him rice for 2gpt
Roosy adopts Buddhism :cry:

Oddly, we get no negmods for that. :confused:

About time I had some good news for you guys. :cool:

S.wb sees more clams

T121
dG has researched Math
S.wb sees more clams, Antarctica seems near.

T122
The Colossus is ours!
CF dG, W14 safely home. Ivory pillaged this time.
Gandhi completes Drama
Trade Roosy Aesthetics for 120g (he was building the Colossus all right and he was close 250*70%=175g... :eek:

)
S.wb discovers the end of the earth, will return. No chance to circumnavigate without optics unless Gandhi/Roosy lands overlap our expored path (or conceivably a +1 vision promoted chariot in a galley)

T123
Gandhi is researching Literature(3)

T124
The Pyramids are built in Moscow! No significant failed gold to trade for. :sad:

Our spy steals Theology.
W15 built in Pigs.
dG wkr wants to camp his ivory, but becomes W16 instead. He'll come home safely next turn because our chariot also eliminated a buddhist missionary.
Rheims is pop2!!!

----------------------------

Stopping per bcool's request.

----------------------------

Moscow can build HS in 7t.
GLib next turn in Pigs and we're already working 2sci this turn.

I suggest I take it to the completion or failure of HS. Have a look, the save is uploaded.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1 AD to 225 AD:

Spoiler :

Mitchum · Nov 9, 2010

Excellent work!! 4 workers stolen!! 2.9 wonders completed. Very nice.

I'm fine with you playing through the HS. You're going to put together a PPP first, right?

I'm also fine with extending the deadline in the maintenance thread as well.

LowtherCastle · Nov 9, 2010

Really cool video clip, Mitchum!

I'll put together a test save and PPP tomorrow morning I guess.

My count is that we have 29 Sushi resources and 12 Mining resources already visible. The map is stuffed.

babybluepants · Nov 9, 2010

Excellent set, LC! :goodjob:

Can't believe we actually got the Pyramids! I was half-joking when I first mentioned it yesterday. :lol:

Mitchum · Nov 9, 2010

LowtherCastle said:
My count is that we have 29 Sushi resources and 12 Mining resources already visible. The map is stuffed.

Too funny. I was just looking at the map and thinking the same thing to myself. I really think Mining Inc is the way to go for the end game. I'm playing a game using it with only 10 resources and it makes a big difference. With HS and the 'Mids in Moscow, I think we have a really good shot at a GE!

babybluepants · Nov 9, 2010

bcool said:
Oxford in GP Farm (I guess this idea was silly since it would take so long to build there. But the scientists we could run there would be pretty darn good. Rather than cottages, a significant amount of could come from the scientists under representation. 6 scientists equals the commerce produced by the tiles around Moscow, long term it might make sense. And once we develop some cottages we might transfer the capital there.)

I don't wanna start a big argument here, but I'm just completely at a loss as to why you'd want to develop cottages there. A non-river non-FIN cottage is utter crap for the first 40t of its existence, and basically equivalent to working coast with Colossus for the next 20t. It probably takes about that 60t to break even overall with Col coast. Assuming you could start working all the grass cottages pre-1000 AD, that timeline still extends into 1500's AD, and you have a mediocre cottage city at best then. More importantly, this city still needs to develop its infrastructure. You won't get that done working 2f1c tiles.

On a this general point: I think we need to grow Moscow to about 14 relatively soon. We should maximize production right this moment for the wonder gambit(s), but the mace build-up should be synched with a good amount of growth. I'd still argue for farming the other two grass, btw, but I won't object too much to cottages. In the near future (post-Oxford and Caste/Pac switch), we could have a pop14 city with something like:
1) Research/gpp mode: 2cow-rice-3farm-gold-2silk-5sci(or4sci+1eng), with Fish working other gold. With Oracle/Mids/HS and Pacifism, we're running at 42gpp @ 43% Eng. Without even working the gold, it would be 48gpp @ 38% Eng. The Oxford contribution @ 100% would be approx. 80bpt, for total research in the 250bpt range. It's hardly ideal for a fast space game, but not too bad considering the alternatives, I think.
2) Hammer mode: fire 5 specs and 1 farm for other gold, horse, copper, iron, PH, GH. 100% Oxford contribution approx. 68bpt, for total in the 200+ range.
That seems like the optimal mid-game setup to me. The cottage alternative replaces one potential spec with two food-equal commerce tiles. Those take probably about 20-30 turns of working to surpass the one scientist in research output, assuming a healthy slider.

LowtherCastle · Nov 9, 2010

Quick PPP T124-T131

1.
Moscow: HS (6-7t)
FIsh: galley-trireme
Siberia: forge (skip Silver CIty for now)
Pigs: forge
GP Farm: granary-forge
Cuba: wbx3
Bahamas: granary-lh(-forge)
Banana City: granary

2. Attempt to attack Rheims with only 2 archer defenders

3. OBs with Roosy + COnstruction if possible

4. Research: machinery-paper

Thoughts?

babybluepants · Nov 9, 2010

Should we maybe try for the Music artist?

LowtherCastle · Nov 9, 2010

I don't think it's worth it. Our research is too weak as it is.

bcool · Nov 9, 2010

what about a sheep city? (on copper/corn island) Instead of a Silver city?

when are we going to build up :espionage:

to steal philosophy?

What about a confu missionary to spread confu to GP Farm to speed up its development?

Are we planning to switch to Theocracy for the macemen/catapult army?

2. Attempt to attack Rheims with only 2 archer defenders

Does DeG have decent stack to attack us with? Could get ugly with limited defenders at Pigs...

(Can't open the save at work, so sorry if this is obvious from the save)
Are you planning to build another fort to get the galley that we used for island settling into the stack for attack on Paris?

Cuba: wbx3

Isn't one coming back (or is it just too far away)

FIsh: galley-trireme

Is a trireme really necessary since we can move and unload troops next to Paris on the same turn? So what if De Gaulle attacks an empty galley?
I would prefer a catapult.

------

I don't wanna start a big argument here, but I'm just completely at a loss as to why you'd want to develop cottages there. A non-river non-FIN cottage is utter crap for the first 40t of its existence, and basically equivalent to working coast with Colossus for the next 20t. It probably takes about that 60t to break even overall with Col coast. Assuming you could start working all the grass cottages pre-1000 AD, that timeline still extends into 1500's AD, and you have a mediocre cottage city at best then. More importantly, this city still needs to develop its infrastructure. You won't get that done working 2f1c tiles.

Even a scientist specialist only Oxford University (no cottage) GP Farm might be better than Oxford in Moscow. How many scientists could we get there? 12?

I'm not saying it is better than Moscow I'm just looking at the possibility. And it will be a longish game so long term view might make it a viable option.

There are two grassland river tiles near GP Farm (opening up soon when Paris falls)

babybluepants · Nov 9, 2010

I'm not too happy that we don't have OB with Roos. It's the cheapest +2 we can get longer term, so we should have done it already. In fact, we have to do it now, since the religion strife will make it impossible in a matter of turns.

Does Siberia really need a forge so bad? We should be building settlers and workers, IMHO. Fish could also skip stuff like trireme and either build settler/worker or military.

Theocracy... IDK. We're switching to Rep now, so it would be a freebie, but we could certainly use OR post-Educ. Spreading Confu to the rest of our cities (at least Siberia, GP and Bahamas for Oxford) would be advisable, but I don't know that we can spare production. Maybe in Fish?

I think GP should switch to working rice next turn, so we can do an efficient granary whip in 3t. Also, I'd probably build library ahead of forge.

SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Attachments

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Similar threads