SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

I don't think we'll run castes for a while, but I think it's conceivable we'll use it to finish up the Communism beeline.

Heroic Epic cannot be built yet unless we use the GG and sacrifice our 5 XP cats.

One idea for opening up the Heroic Epic earlier than it would otherwise be available would be for one of our CR2 maces to attack paris whilst it could get 3XP, this unit would gain 10XP when we attacked Lyons. The disadvantage is that we would have an increased chance of losing a mace, and if he promoted the axe to shock we could lose a second.


Once we have whipped all critical infrastructure in our key cities I think we should revolt to Caste System, we will need the extra specialist slots.

Here is another test game, and Bermuda is clearly the slowest link.

The galley build in Bananas takes too long (I could have maybe gotten it 1 turn earlier since I didn't improve the bananas the same turn that I settled it, could have also perhaps roaded the space we were going to settle to settle the city 1 turn earlier)
Bottom line is galley in Bananas is too slow.

Whipping a galley in Pigs might be a good call (instead of a courthouse build)

If we lose the race to the Hanging Gardens, then I think a few confu missionary builds in Moscow makes sense. I highly doubt you are going to get a 10xp macemen (risky attack, followed by several turns of healing, then moving to attack a new city). The Heroic Epic in Fish leaves Moscow to build other wonders (both national and world wonders) or whatever we need like confu missionaries. Heroic Epic in Fish also gives us fast boats too. Something to consider.

But if you look at my test game with the GG leading a warrior (upgraded to macemen) you will notice I have 2 10+ xp units. (I also lured out deG stack in that game, and killed most of it in the field -- I left Paris open and he moved the stack and I killed 2/3 of it, then I lost Paris and retook it.) We lose a few turns on Paris, but DeG is done after that.

I'm pretty sure are going to get the next Great Person from Moscow. We may want to consider running an engineer there.

Edit: I also put a turn into feudalism, and traded machinery to Gandhi for it allowing us to get a jump on Guilds. (Although maybe I should have still gone for Engineering)

bcool said:

I'm pretty sure are going to get the next Great Person from Moscow. We may want to consider running an engineer there.

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Options are:
Run Eng continuously after HS build, get HG: 40% GE on T150 (800 AD)
Run Eng continuously after HS build, don't get HG: 40% GE on T151 (820 AD)
No Eng, get HG: 37% GE on T155 (900 AD)
No Eng, don't get HG: 35% GE on T157 (940 AD)

It seems relatively marginal, but given the importance of the GE I would still try to run an Eng as much as possible. If we luck out and get this one, we can avoid working Eng in Pigs and GP subsequently, in favour of Sci/Spy.

@bcool,
I was imagining we'd eventually want to settle GG's in both Moscow and Fish to avoid any need for Theo, as well as have a GG medic for the China war (I think that would allow for a more efficient move through Shanghai-Beijing-Guangzhou to break his back). Your tests are compelling, though, and I'll admit I rarely if ever play IMP leaders, so don't know what to expect. It appears based on your test that we're looking at 1 more GG before we attack Mao. That would presumably be settled in Moscow with HE?

Well the test game is behind the real game in xp points (we didn't get same credit for the rheims conquest in the test game.) So we will get at least 1 GG from the war with DeG if we are really lucky and if we use the GG to attach it to a unit and give it leadership then maybe we will get 2.
We could settle the 2nd GG in Moscow and with the Heroic Epic it could build a significant percentage of our units. The 3rd GG wouldn't be too far behind if we don't get it(giving us the super medic). We could also try for a woodsmanIII unit without the GG for +15% healing.

I don't have access to the game right now so I can't see the test saves. In general, I prefer to settle GGs for the ongoing benefit. Plus, if we don't plan to build the HE right away, why the rush to open it up so soon. A few turns shouldn't make that big a difference, right?

Also, can you pause before starting the aqueduct in Moscow so that we can assesses our chances on the HG before we invest any hammers toward them?

Also, can you pause before starting the aqueduct in Moscow so that we can assesses our chances on the HG before we invest any hammers toward them?

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Yes, I can play that far now if we have a consensus.

Current Plan:

Pre-Play Plan for the next 15 turns:

Research: Construction-Education via GS bulb. If an AI has a large amount of spare gold sell him some rubbish tech).

Fish:
T+1: Mace, settle GG
T+3: Mace (2pop)
T+4: Catapult
T+6: Mace (2pop)
T+7: Catapult
Slow build maces until we discover education
T+15 University (3pop)

Moscow:
T+3:Hagia Sophia
T+4:Barracks
T+5:Mace
T+6:Mace
T+8:Aquaduct
T+11:Hanging Gardens
T+15:University

Send 2 workers to build plains mine, and then start scrubbing fallout (the one on the fort and near fish city)

Bermuda:
T+7 workboat (whipped)
T+14 granary (2 pop whip)
Start Forge
Workers road pigs, pasture and road sheep, build mines.

Bahamas:
Start forge (1T)
T+3: Lighthouse (2 pop whip)
T+9L Forge (3 pop whip)
T+11 Library (1 pop whip)
T+15 University (3 pop whip and chop)
worker builds mine, roads mine, roads grass, chops forest, roads old forest tile.

This city works coast instead of plains hill mines where possible until library built, then work mines instead of non seafood coast.

Cuba:
Whip workboat, overflow into granary (while we can still whip one there?)
Send workboat to Bahamas.

Rheims:
Start library once out of revolt.
Workers scrub stone and corn/gems. Micro so we can get the stone quarried as soon as the borders expand (4 workers at T+8). Send 1 chariot to garrison pigs.

Pigs:
T+2 forge (3pop whip) work 3 foods and 2 scientists.
Start courthouse.
T+7 courthouse (3pop whip)
Overflow into National Epic
Start university, and whip for 4 pop ASAP.
Always work all 3 foods and have 2 scientists. Then work other farms before we start university, then switch to mines.

GP Farm:
T+5: Forge(3 pop whip)
T+7: Library ( 2pop whip)
Start courthouse, switch to university once we have education, whip as soon as we can and still work all food sources.
workers scrub the grassland to put down farms.

Siberia:
T+1: Settler(2 pop whip)
T+6: Courthouse (3 pop whip)
T+8: Build spy
Build wealth/research (do we have anything else we want to build there in the near future)
Start University once we have education and whip for 4 pop ASAP.
As the city grows work furs, then hire engineer.
worker scrubs and hooks up silver, then starts scrubbing grassland in Siberia.

Send settler to found the bananas site.


Sign a cease fire agreement with De Gaulle. Do this by sending a chariot to NW W of Rheims.

DOW France When forces are in position load combat 1, and a CR 1 mace onto galley together with 2 catapults. Unload next turn next to Paris. Immediately load remaining 4 maces onto galleys. Bombard city defenses next turn and unload galleys. The next turn the defenses are stripped to 0 and our maces take Paris on T+11.

I propose promoting one of our maces to combat 1 so it can become a medic after we take Paris.

Southern front:
Before we attack Paris take any worker stealing opportunities that arise. After that remain on the defensive, but make sure we have at least 1 unit within 2 tiles of Mareseilles to stop him moving his units out..

Looks good overall.

mdy said:

Send 2 workers to build plains mine, and then start building the 2 cottages (the one on the fort and near fish city)

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I may have missed something, but I thought we were leaning toward building farms here. I'm fine either way...

mdy said:

Siberia:
Build wealth/research (do we have anything else we want to build there in the near future)

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Missionaries?

EDIT: I forgot that we don't have Confucianism there yet...

I don't think there is a consensus on that plan.

I think a majority want a confu missionary in Fish and a Galley build in Pigs instead of the courthouse. You haven't addressed those concerns with the current PPP. I think this is important.

There is dispute over the use of the GG, but I will defer to you with its use unless everyone else is convinced by my argument for attaching it to a warrior for free upgrade and leadership promotion potential especially since we will lose a macemen if we do build a confu missionary. I think the Heroic Epic has a good chance of being significantly delayed if we don't do this. Yes we can get lucky with the attacks, but it makes the war that much riskier.

Edit: siberia shoud build a spy instead of wealth/research. And it should run a spy specialist not an engineer.

I've been reflecting on the Heroic Epic. Think we want it at least right after the uni build in Moscow. Since right now you're only building 4 units in FIsh that will have 5XP, I think I agree with bcool. If makes more sense to me to attach it to a warrior with the two cats (only). That gives 7-7-6. Then the warrior/mace, with the +experience promotion, becomes 10XP after its first battle (preferably the easier of the two 2XP battles).

I also think that Siberia should work a spy specialist rather than an engineer.

LC why 7-7-6? Because that would give us a 10 xp catapult? I think a 5-5-5-5 split is better. It doesn't hurt to have a 8 xp maceman that will become a CRIII (those archers on hills can be tough). And it gives a CRI and leadership macemen for the attached general (could also go Combat I and perhaps rack up enough xp with the leadership promotion to get a super medic).

By the time we can build the universities we should only be a few turns away from getting a 10XP unit anyway(The risks of this not happening are of order 1-2%). Sacrificing a GG on giving XP to a couple of units, and sacrificing the longer term benefits of settling it just to get the Heroic Epic built a couple of turns earlier does not make sense to me. This is especially true as we wouldn't have any immediate need to build any new units there.

If we hire a spy instead before an engineer in Siberia we risk having to delay starting Oxford as this uni may not be ready in time.

I think we may as well complete the mace in pigs. 2 CR2 maces should be more than enough for our immediate needs, and doing it this way means we will have 1 more mace available for the attack, which depending on the circumstances might speed up the capture of Paris and/or Lyons by a turn. For the assault on Paris/Lyons it won't make much difference whether a mace is CR1 or CR2, and afterwards our city raider maces should all be at CR2 afterwards anyway so i don't think the extra XP matters that much. We can always build a missionary later.

I agree with building a spy in Siberia after the courthouse.

I may have missed something, but I thought we were leaning toward building farms here. I'm fine either way...

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I think LC mentioned that there had been a major discussion on this while I was away and the team settled on cottages for the riverside grass?

I think a majority want a confu missionary in Fish and a Galley build in Pigs instead of the courthouse.

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Of what possible use could a galley be in pigs?????

This city does not limit our Oxford build, and if we need to send a missionary/other units there later our current galleys can do it once they have finished supporting the war with France.

@bcool: Our first battle isn't until T+11, iirc. I was hoping we'd get 10XP right then and there.

xpost w/mdy

mdy said:

By the time we can build the universities we should only be a few turns away from getting a 10XP unit anyway(The risks of this not happening are of order 1-2%). Sacrificing a GG on giving XP to a couple of units, and sacrificing the longer term benefits of settling it just to get the Heroic Epic built a couple of turns earlier does not make sense to me. This is especially true as we wouldn't have any immediate need to build any new units there.

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My idea is that Moscow will build units non-stop after it builds Oxford. I hope you're right that the 10XP is near at hand. Btw, I definitely dislike HE in Fish--just not enough hammers there for the long-term.

mdy said:

I think LC mentioned that there had been a major discussion on this while I was away and the team settled on cottages for the riverside grass?

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Actually, the idea was that we hadn't settled on anything. More recently I mentioned that I was in agreement with farming those tiles, because I'm in hopes we'll slingshot BIology.

Sacrificing a GG on giving XP to a couple of units, and sacrificing the longer term benefits of settling it just to get the Heroic Epic built a couple of turns earlier does not make sense to me. This is especially true as we wouldn't have any immediate need to build any new units there.

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Attaching the GG on the warrior doesn't waste the GG. It gives us a free macemen essentially, and the leadership promotion gives us our 2nd GG and future GG sooner rather than later.
Edit: and if we use LC's plan it gives us the Heroic Epic option in Moscow before a University would be built in Moscow

Of what possible use could a galley be in pigs?????

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It can transport the confu missionary to Bahamas, the city that is limiting the building of Oxford.

If we hire a spy instead before an engineer in Siberia we risk having to delay starting Oxford as this uni may not be ready in time.

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I haven't had much of a problem building the university in Siberia in time. It is not the limiting city in my tests and I've been running a spy.

mdy do you have the inclination or the time to play out the test save following your plan so we can see a possible outcome of your PPP?

Attaching the GG on the warrior doesn't waste the GG. It gives us a free macemen essentially, and the leadership promotion gives us our 2nd GG and future GG sooner rather than later.
Edit: and if we use LC's plan it gives us the Heroic Epic option in Moscow before a University would be built in Moscow

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Does the increase in XP from the leadership promotion get translated into extra GG points? There is little point in building the Heroic Epic any earlier as the existing units+the one ones we are already planning on building should be enough to defeat France by themselves. We should not actually need to build any more units in Moscow until our military buildup against China by which time we will easily have been able to build the Heroic Epic and get the second GG, getting them earlier won't gain us anything.

I haven't had much of a problem building the university in Siberia in time. It is not the limiting city in my tests and I've been running a spy.

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The test save has confunicism, if you remove this, then things are different.

It can transport the confu missionary to Bahamas, the city that is limiting the building of Oxford.

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It is not limiting Oxford, that is limited by the capital if we go for the HG.

Btw, guys, I'm unable to remove COnfucianism in the test save because for some quirk of worldbuilder, when I remove it, it also removes COnfucianism and the Holy CIty from Fish.

mdy, I'm not disagreeing with your plan, but understand that we want to go down on Beijing yesterday, not tomorrow. Just as soon as we can possibly put together the SoD. In fact, I'm most satisfied with this sequence: Paris-Orleans-Shanghai-Beijing.* The rest of France can wait as far as I'm concerned. Lyons is squat and its culture won't bother Paris significantly.


The only factor I don't know is how soon Oxford will be done in your plan.

*Which is also why I would still like to see us settle that hammer city rather than bananas. It would capture the tile from Shanghai on T153, I calculated, though that might be off by a turn.
.

mdy said:

Does the increase in XP from the leadership promotion get translated into extra GG points?

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Nope. I tested this just now. The 2X GG points are based solely on the base XPs gained. So when a leader with leadership wins a 1XP battle and gains 2XP, we gain 2GG pts.

Good question, mdy. Live and learn.