SGOTM 12 - Plastic Ducks

I have a rather busy weekend ahead of me as well so there's no real hurry.

Mining vs Sushi... wow this is a tough call.

We're going to be whipping so the food will be very good... however Sushi costs twice as much as Mining.

15 food vs 26 hammers (post-factory+power).

With Kremlin, I think food wins but I have nothing to back this up right now. 15F is worth a lot of Workshops.

Nice catching UoS

I'm still not convinced a lot of those island cities should get Factories+Coal plants unless we want to spread Mining to all of them... which we probably do, right?

I need some time to think on all issues.

Some are more obvious:
civic - Slavery+OR but when we are ready to whip. No need to revolt this turn, no?

builds - Factories depend where we spread mining. In every city mining will be +26H - 15gpt or so, so a net +11 gold/turn... pays for itself within 10 turns. However we can't spread it everywhere, we don't have the time/hammers...

war - take remaining mainland Roose cities, we might lose a few units. Time is of matter now.

next GA: use a GS of course as we have 2. We need 2 more GPs that aren't scientists (Physics free GP) to trigger 3rd GA. We won't get a 4th GA and we have more than 36 turns to launch. As we're whipping a bit, next GA can probably wait slightly.

We need a good estimate on time to launch to make the best possible decision - not waste GA turns.

I guess Mine wins since it ignores the happiness issue and many our cities are food abundant. Another small reason is that Mine helps SP to pump CEs and build WS, so SP only needs to whip factory.

OK to switch civics next turn.

The major question about the city build is when to whip factory, do we want to wait for religion? This is a tedious issue, I need to think about it carefully on each city and I could use your help.

The question about next GA is that do we want to launch it now to be continuous? This depends on when can we launch.

Edit: Another issue is the order of Corporation spreading, but mostly it's for next set, which is yours.

I understand the issues and yes they are tedious.

Problem is I also need time to think about it.

Mining first also gives us railroads which is good for movement+production. Also the cost is smaller.

City builds: this is the real question. When is it worth stopping to build infrastructure and switching to wealth/science.

GA: Yes, is the GA during research phase more important or GA during spaceship construction phase more important?

All of these questions boil down to exactly 1 question:

WHEN CAN WE LAUNCH?

We need a rather accurate answer to this or we'll just stumble around and waste 5+ turns.

I see 2 options:

1- spreadsheets/hand analysis

2- update test game to reflect the current situation and then try it out.

I would favor option #2 but option #1 is also good.
We don't need to actually play all the turns, most of it can be done from the last savegame via wordbuilder. It will take maybe 2~3 hours but we will get the best answer we can hope for.

What do you think?

I think there's some very good techs we want as soon as possible, so launching the next GA now should be the right decision.

You could take a look at my BOTM29 results and make an estimation, which is probably the easiest way. However I agree to make a rough test game for more accurate prediction.

Ok, I will try to get it done tomorrow, it should be ready for the evening.

I agree with launching the next GA right away, it will probably be better to lose a few turns of GA nearer to the end if we do lose any. Snowball...

Whipping: whips will now be worth 45H base, OR = 11H per population. I'm pretty sure that for a lot of cities it will not be worth to wait for those 11*4 hammers or so. For cities that can expect a Confu spread or that have slow growth - yes. Others... skip.

Techs: >Railroad>Medicine ?

We will need to see how much hammers factories can contribute in island cities... I'm not too optimist about them right now unless we can spread Mining to each of them.

I took a look at the progress of my BOTM29 play. In 1060AD, I completed AL and had RR as well. The tech situation and BPT was similar as that of our 1460AD, about 5 turns ahead due to RR. I got SM and Astro from trade but researched Communism myself. I'd say that our current situation is ~45 turns backward than my BOTM29. However, I went for score milking and heavier war investment and suboptimal play in later stage, and in this game, we will have 2 corporation ready earlier, this will probably shorten the distance by ~10 turns. In BOTM29, I launched in 1575AD, therefore, my estimation of our launching date is ~1725AD.

BTW, you can hold the test game until I complete this set, we will spread corporation as more as possible atm.

Ok, but there are still a few things to decide city wise IMO. We need to justify thecost of some buildings still.

The rule of factory is almost everywhere since we are going to spread mine everywhere. The timing of whipping is to whip it where cities have state religion plus high food plus right away. I'll also try to spread religion as fast as possible since we won't stay on OR for too long time. I'll post the detail plan later tonight.

Spreading mining everywhere is a given... with the +12 gold per city in the HQ it will be basically free after the spread.

The cost is 60H and ~80 gold right? Pays for itself in ~10 turns as I said earlier.

However for Factory+CP, the payback time is longer. I'm wondering if in some cities it wouldn't be better to just get commerce multipliers and then build wealth (University, Obs, maybe Lab)

With religion and OR, Factory + CP cost < 6 pops to whip (~180 raw hammers), then they add 23H for whipping of each pop. Therefore, with ~8 pop whipping, they get paid back. With sushi, this could be done in 10 turns. Considering the effect of Mine, I'd say they are certainly worthy 20 turns before the End.

The order of corporation spreading is:

Mine > Sushi (Not absolutely since they will be spread in the same time).

Mine: Moscow > Ros > Yek > Cities on route to Shanghai > Cities with Factories and CP

Sushi: Moscow > Ros > Yek > Cities on route to Shanghai > Small cities with low food plus and low whipping anger

I will look through the save once I get back.

I remember one city using a citizen that could be an Engineer... minor details but details nonetheless.

Few comments:

-don't forget to switch to Free Market when you go OR+Slavery, we need it for corps.
-Beijing: it's probably safe to CFB the fish now with the wb. Galleys do not run pillage missions (according to bestsss) . Roosevelt can't pillage it for at least 5 turns, we'll be done with him by then
-Guangzhou: citizen->Engineer
-hook up the copper by Astra when you can spare a worker
-prepare galleys for bridge & send 2 execs at a time.

We need to take Hangzhou after we're done with Roosevelt. It's culturally pressing our cities and it will add 2H to Mining.

I'm wondering if it's worth plopping down cities in grid holes we have. With Mining(maybe Sushi) even a marginal city can become contributing after it has granary+CH.

Still wondering on some factories but I have no counterargument.

Other things will need to be tested f.e. it is not clear war is the best path in the long run.

kossin said:

Few comments:

-don't forget to switch to Free Market when you go OR+Slavery, we need it for corps.

We don't need FM for corporation. Mercantilism is better than FM when the trade route income is small (because many cities are not big enough) and not many cities get corporation. However at certain point when a certain number of cities get corporations, FM wins.

-Beijing: it's probably safe to CFB the fish now with the wb. Galleys do not run pillage missions (according to bestsss) . Roosevelt can't pillage it for at least 5 turns, we'll be done with him by then

Right.

-Guangzhou: citizen->Engineer

I have noticed this.

-hook up the copper by Astra when you can spare a worker

No problem.

-prepare galleys for bridge & send 2 execs at a time.

Probably 1 more galley. 1 CE to Yek immediately is enough

We need to take Hangzhou after we're done with Roosevelt. It's culturally pressing our cities and it will add 2H to Mining.

Yes, however the CG II LBs on hill are troublesome, need to wait until our GGs become infantry.

I'm wondering if it's worth plopping down cities in grid holes we have. With Mining(maybe Sushi) even a marginal city can become contributing after it has granary+CH.

Still wondering on some factories but I have no counterargument.

We are ~45 turns to launch, so whipping factories and CP now should be the right move.

Other things will need to be tested f.e. it is not clear war is the best path in the long run.

Issues for next set can be delayed.

Click to expand...

Comments.

Plan for the next 6 turns till we can switch civic again.

Tech path -- Steel->RR->Medcine

IBT -- R Steel, Paris(Market), Lyons(Market), NJ(Market), Oren(Harbor), Taro(Fac), GZ(to Eng), BJ(WB CFB), Burn 1 GS for GA

IBT + 1 -- Switch to OR + Slavery after all workers done their work.

Mos -- Aqu->RC->CT->Wealth->CEs
Ros -- CM
Sam -- CM
Tours -- Fac
NY -- Whip Gra
Ast -- Whip CH
Kur -- Whip LH

Factories will be whipped in the following cities

Nov
SP
Smo
Che
Yar
Kha
Tv
Chit
Rh
SH
Yaku
Yek
Vla
Mur
Mag
Bry

IBT +2~4

SH -- CM
Rh -- CM
SH, Rh, Ros, and Sam will produce CMs in turns to keep maximum CMs produced every turn. Vlad will produce 1 CM for Novos.

Cities getting Factories will continue on CP and 2pop whip it whenever available
Cities building markets and harbor will start factory after
Cities will only whip when it get the state religion.
Health buildings come ahead after CPs

Because we don't want to stays on OR for long time, so I'd like to whip as much as possible in this set.

Ahh, I see they fixed the Mercantilism-Corporation blocking bug.

The rest looks fine. I don't have time to go over it before tonight so feel free to go ahead.

All right, will play tonight.

BTW&#65292; what's the most advanced units in US's SOD? Cossacks or cannons? One era ahead than ours.

^^
Not necessarily, it could be just a general military buildup.
Their power has about the same rate of growth as our buildup but we used only 2 cities. 3~4 cities could do that.

They played this game in a traditional way, focus on research and infra (from their culture curve) and then push for military after having a dominant military tech. They should be able to get cannons or cossacks if they beeline and did not go for infinite expanding like us.

I'd say cannons then with a mix of Maces/Muskets.
But my guess is 100% guess

What I'm really wondering is what OSS is doing with those 1/2 turns sets. I guess they should be renamed
"One Short Set".

Game Log

Too long.

Game Report

T216 -- Lots of things happened.

Our stacks are barely enough to take Philadelphia and Atlanta. Also you can see that New York revolted.



Ended this longest war with the trap city back.



Mine founded, and I managed to complete CP in time so that SP could pump out CE in 1 turn. Who said desert tile is useless?



Also gifted this tech to Churchill for free since I dreamed that he could research Astro next.



T217 -- And the gifting continued! This might be a bad decision to increase the difficulty of war with him and get nothing.



Issues to be determine next

1. Civics, when and what to switch?
2. Corporation spreading route. Note that I keep OF in Smo so that it could pump a couple CEs immediately. You could also plan and use the OF in other cities to speed up the spreading. Also look at the the OF in Moscow, OF can be larger than previous build if it is from natural build (no whip and chop), that why I asked about this issue previous.
3. City build, this is related with the spreading of corporations, if we want the fastest spreading, this issue is still tedious.
4. Tech Path after Medicine, BTW, Refrigeration is not absolutely necessary.
5. War. This also affects the tech path and city build. Do we want to DOW on Gandhi and Churchill?
6. Take your time for this headache issues.