SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

bcool · Nov 28, 2010

As for Taj Mahal, I hadn't thought about it. Any ideas about where to build it? Not sure there's a big hurry because a second GA only takes 2 GPs anyway.

I think Siberia isn't too bad, the tundra workshops will soon be producing 4 hammers (at least during the GA), It is more likely to pop a GP than an island city, so those gpp from the wonder will help us rather than potentially going to waste.

Siberian workers could focus a bit more on hammer improvements, and Siberia could get a few more pop working hammer tiles.
Siberia wouldn't build it super quick, but I think it will be nice to have it started so we can complete it if necessary for a free switch to communism if we can't manage the communism steal in the 1st GA.
Plus a 2nd GA would make winning the race to economics much safer. (Edit: And getting us to corporations & railroad or medicine that much faster would accelerate us too. I really think we want the 2nd GA sooner rather than later. Corporations alone is at least +30 commerce no?)

Nationalism has the potential of speeding up Communism (I guess it depends on how much gold we have to run 100% espionage when Nationhood comes up) +25% espionage is at least 100 espionage per turn at 100% espionage during the GA. It isn't a huge risk since I think worst case I think we could try again with another spy if the 1st fails no?

I think we only risk slowing down Biology by ~2 turns (since we are going binary research perhaps), for the 1 turn 100% espionage slider investment we need for Nationhood steal. (plus losing the ~90 :science:

and ~24

from letting the foreign-tech-emporium city steal Moscow's rice)

Test game seemed to have plenty of research left when I played it out ~10 turns. Plus I think the real game is actually better than the test game now.

Edit: just in case it wasn't obvious, workers need to start building workshops. I put a few workshop turns down near Paris and one or two turns elsewhere. Sorry should have labeled them.

mdy · Nov 28, 2010

I think we should build the Taj in Bermuda. All our cities on the mainland with decent production will be heavily committed to other things for some time. This should give us the option of a second GA relatively quickly if need be. We are not guaranteed to get 2 GP's of different types in a timely manner.

I think Siberia isn't too bad, the tundra workshops will soon be producing 4 hammers (at least during the GA),

I don't think you can build workshops on tundra. That option certainly isn't available if you click on one of the workers on a tundra tile in the real save.

bcool · Nov 28, 2010

You can if it is next to a river.

LowtherCastle · Nov 28, 2010

Do we want only workshops in Siberia? That would work if we had enough food from Sushi. Or do we want some watermills too?

bcool · Nov 28, 2010

Sure a few watermills eventually, but I was just talking about a couple of workshops so it could finish the Taj Mahal in a reasonable amount of time. Watermills would be okay now in a Golden age, but in the few turns we have without state property I'm not sure if they would be worked.

I'm okay with Taj in Bermuda, but we do need a confu monastery somewhere other than Moscow. If we do it Bermuda I suppose you could even do it after the monastery, or you could replace the monastery scheduled in Bermuda to Siberia.

babybluepants · Nov 28, 2010

I guess my drafting idea wasn't very popular. Oh, well, it's a bit far-fetched, though it seemed good to me.

I'd build Taj on the islands, as stated before, but I think we may be jumping the gun a bit. There should still be ca. 90-100t min. until spaceship loss. Shouldn't we delay it as much as possible?

bcool · Nov 29, 2010

I think it is something to consider next turn set, this turn set I don't think we have the production to even build cheap theaters. We need archer MP & spies. And GP focused cities will have almost no production.

I managed to come very close to having it all in the test game. I made one mistake though... a ceasefire with Mao. You have to push to get him to less than 3 cities without a ceasefire since he probably won't ceasefire in time for you to gift him the foreign-tech-emporium city.

My military campaign against Mao was significantly easier than the real one will be, but I didn't get any help from Rosey. So maybe...

and...If DeG gets or has MC beware of his triremes when you declare on him
and went with Parthenon in Siberia for failure gold, and Taj in Bermuda.
If we can't steal Communism then the GA should be close for a steal another attempt in 5 turns.

Anyways for what it is worth here is a test game out to the last turn of GA.

Spoiler :

LowtherCastle · Nov 29, 2010

I've never drafted units, bbp, but it's definitely an interesting idea, especially for after Biology. Something like that could definitely give a Roosy Campaign a huge boost. We'd have to figure out the logistics. We don't even have to finish GLobe in advance, necessarily. We just need to build it before the city is so whipped it can't produce it anymore.

The other thing is that I assume we're going to run a slavery phase at some point soon, maybe between the two GAs.

babybluepants · Nov 29, 2010

Yeah, the idea was to run military production after Bio and Comm (since we can certainly afford it then) in-between two GAs, maybe even running Theo if that was helpful. Then switch right into the final research phase during the Taj GA. I was actually hoping we wouldn't need any more Slavery, esp. if we went Mining Inc before Sushi, but that may just be hopeful. I think we need 30+ conventional units for Roos and Church (?) and I'd like to work on that asap. In, say, 12t we could have 12 from a GT city and maybe 1 each from others (we should have the

cap to spare), for 25-ish muskets. We obviously need a lot more siege, but Moscow with Fish's help should easily take care of that, I'd think (probably something like 3 per 2t?).

In any case, there's not much reason to not conquer America and England asap after this GA. Right?

Would we go for Steel right away or run at Economics? I'm assuming the consensus would be Econ, for a safety factor? That's still quite a bit of research, I guess.

What is the consensus now? Are we stealing Nat first? Running Nationhood?

Edit: Yes, the logistics of all this are complex. :crazyeye:

The talk of Nationhood switching made me think we should be planning for further conquest now.

LowtherCastle · Nov 29, 2010

PPP updated

If there are no objections, I guess I could go ahead and start the turnset, see what happens.

mdy · Nov 29, 2010

If there are no objections, I guess I could go ahead and start the turnset, see what happens.

Go ahead LC.

LowtherCastle · Nov 29, 2010

LC Turnset T164-168

T164
Roosy grants us 100g
Cancel iron to Churchill
switch EPs to dG
Researching Liberalism at 100%

IT
Gandhi gets Compass
Churchill knocks Marseilles down to an archer+spear

T165
We get 101g for Moai!
Trade Engineering to Gandhi for COmpass+Drama+60g+maps
Give Mao Paper for 100g
DoW Mao
DoW dG

IT
Marseilles falls to CHurchill
Roosy wants Education for Feudalism+cash, uh oh.
Orleans granary gets fkitalled just as soon as I poprushed it :mad:

We need a spy in Orleans and start doing counterespionage on two bo$tords I know
Nanjing's borders finally pop
Churchill completes the Parthenon, 20g for us

T166
About 1 full GA turn to go on LIberalism so I switch to CHemistry
Trade Drama to CHurchill for 130g
We steal dG's worker (thankfully, otherwise CF on time might be a problem)
dG's galley is blocking our flotilla. Our trireme takes it out at a cost of 1.0/2 :mad:

IT
Chengdu builds an intel agency!
Shangahi adds an archer :mad:

T167
Renegogiate gpt deals with Roosy, Gandhi for +1gpt
CF dG
Start GA
Revolt to Pac+CS

IT
Shangahi adds an lb :mad:

T168
Capture Shanghai with heavy losses to trebs (4 crumble to dust) :mad:

We score a lh and market in Shanghai.

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Turnset break, save uploaded
----------------------------

IT
Some pigslime killed our university in Pigs :mad:

T169 --

Chruchill moves some units toward Lyons. I decide not to close borders, because that will kill our trade routes to Roosy and Gandhi. Instead, I start building an iceball settler in Fish.

T170
GS in Pigs
Trade Compass to CHurchill for 150g
Bcool Island goes Hindu

IT
Roosy no longer WHEOOHRN!!!
Roosy has Education!!!
Mao sends three more lbs to Beijing-NW :mad:

T171
We can bribe Roosy to war with Mao, now. THe best price I can find is:
Gunpowder for 170g+maps+DoW(Mao)
We are a turn behind on capturing Beijing and with the +3lbs threatening, I set up Shanghai to empty this or next turn, in hopes we can fool Mao. That plus Roosy DoWing might make Beijing easier, though I doubt it.

Stopping to discuss.

----------------------------
Turnset break, save uploaded
----------------------------

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1040 AD to 1080 AD:

Spoiler :

bcool · Nov 29, 2010

Hey Lc, a few minor points...

If you windmill the Grass Hill N of St Nick you can take back the rice 1 turn earlier.

Don't workshop next to the forested furs or deer near Siberia (we can hope for forest spreading but they only spread to adjacent empty tiles)

You might want to send more workers into the war zone (to clear fallout, build forts,etc)

edit: pigs will have an opportunity to grow 1 more pop when you delay it for GP Farm (so you might want to work another grass farm instead of the ivory)

edit: do you want to demand in tribute gold from churchill and gandhi? They both have 60 gold. I did this a bit in the test game.

edit: I think you can run two more scientists in Moscow. You don't really need the iron and you can run at -1 food by not working the Grass Hill. But we might as well get a GP from Moscow at the end of the GA, and you can do this by running ~3 specialists per turn.

babybluepants · Nov 29, 2010

Good job so far. :thumbsup:

Sucks about Marseilles. :mad:

Agree with bcool on sci in Moscow and trying to grow Pigs.

Could we perhaps isolate 2-3 units in Nanjing in a bit? With the trailing trebs, some random units (maybe even an upgrade to an axe, though I know we can't really afford it). That is, if getting him down to 3 cities proves more difficult in his core.

Are you continuing?

Mitchum · Nov 29, 2010

Good going so far, LC. Keep it up!!

LowtherCastle · Nov 29, 2010

bcool said:
Hey Lc, a few minor points...

If you windmill the Grass Hill N of St Nick you can take back the rice 1 turn earlier.

Don't workshop next to the forested furs or deer near Siberia (we can hope for forest spreading but they only spread to adjacent empty tiles)

You might want to send more workers into the war zone (to clear fallout, build forts,etc)

edit: pigs will have an opportunity to grow 1 more pop when you delay it for GP Farm (so you might want to work another grass farm instead of the ivory)

edit: do you want to demand in tribute gold from churchill and gandhi? They both have 60 gold. I did this a bit in the test game.

edit: I think you can run two more scientists in Moscow. You don't really need the iron and you can run at -1 food by not working the Grass Hill. But we might as well get a GP from Moscow at the end of the GA, and you can do this by running ~3 specialists per turn.

Thx for the ideas. Not sure about demanding the gold. Don't want to ruffle Churchill's feathers quite yet. I guess we have a small margin with Gandhi, before we become his WE instead of dG. We'll see. Seems like we could get teh same 100g from them, though, right?

babybluepants said:
Could we perhaps isolate 2-3 units in Nanjing in a bit? With the trailing trebs, some random units (maybe even an upgrade to an axe, though I know we can't really afford it). That is, if getting him down to 3 cities proves more difficult in his core.

Are you continuing?

Yes, I was hoping to keep 1-2 of the CRII trebs but lost them all. That delays Beijing a bit, especially if he brings back-up. So it looks like our only chance of stealing Communism this side of the GA is to capture Beijing, then Nanjing and Hangzhou. Not ready to commit myself to anything yet. I think we continue toward Beijing for now and see how things unfold.

One possibility would be to upgrade the two swords for 220g. The other slowdown is our slow prgress toward the next GG. We could attach him to the 1/2 axe and promote him to Woodsman III for Nanjing, I guess.

I guess I could play on, if there's no more feedback.

babybluepants · Nov 29, 2010

LowtherCastle said:
Seems like we could get teh same 100g from them, though, right?

Compared to Roosevelt, the variable is power ratio. I suspect Gandhi would give up more than. Are we not technically a LT for Churchill now? That would double the return, as well.

LowtherCastle said:
I think we continue toward Beijing for now and see how things unfold.

Yep. Re-evaluate in a few turns if needed...

I wouldn't spend cash on upgrades yet.

LowtherCastle · Nov 29, 2010

Good point on Churchill being a LT. So, I'd definitely wait on that, to see if he goes up. If he jumps up for some reason, maybe I'll grab the money and run.

mdy · Nov 29, 2010

I agree with proceeding to Beijing for now. If the RNG is with us there we might still be able to take Guangzhou.

LowtherCastle · Nov 29, 2010

Uploaded T171 save. We need to discuss our options. We can now bribe Roosy against Mao and Mao is about to reinforce Beijing with 3 more lbs... We could empty Shanghai this turn or next. BOth safely. Maybe this turn is the better option, because the reinforcements aren't in Beijing yet, so maybe they'd take new orders. Or maybe they'd replace units in Biejing with new orders to go after Shanghai.

EDIT: Note that the spy in Shanghai goes to the 1S hill each turn to verify that no units from Nanjing are within 3 tiles of Shanghai.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1080 AD to 1110 AD:

Spoiler :

SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

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