SGOTM 12 - Plastic Ducks

kossin · Dec 3, 2010

Yes, I will definitely will be free to bring the game home in 2 weeks.

Sorry again to let you down, RL is just being nasty lately. I want to play so bad but I'm already not getting enough sleep so I'm stuck cutting Civ4 playtime >.<

Thanks for being a fantastic teammate.

Duckweed · Dec 3, 2010

Plan for the next 5 turns

Military -- Will DOW Mao when 3 cats are in position

Diplomacy -- Will trade PP for Gandhi's cash (2 turns should be good). Renegotiate resource deal with Gandhi and Churchill when Sushi founded.

Tech -- Partial research to finish Medicine, then 0% on Astro

Workers -- Mainly connecting railroad network to Washington

Religion -- 1 CM from Rh for Orl, Guangzhou, Beijing and Seattle will be the cities pumping out CMs whenever possible and convenient.

Mine and Sushi

Current 2 MEs to Ros and Smo

Mos -- 3 MEs to Yek, Tv, and Che, 1 SEs to Tv and then Hospital

Tv -- will produce 1 SE for Chita

SP -- 2 turns of WS -> 2 SEs to Mos and Ros -> WS

Smo -- 2 MEs to Kha and Yar

Ros -- Gro -> 3 MEs to Oren, Tob, and Nov -> IW

Kha -- Wealth and then 1 ME to Tours

Tours -- Spreading Center of MEs, 1st one to SH and then to surrounding cities

SH -- CP and whip and then spreading center of MEs

Yek -- ME spreading center, 1st ME to Sma -- another spreading center

Other city build

Gra > LH (if seafood) > CH > Forge > Lib > Factory > CP > Harbor > Grocer > Aqu > Univ

IBT changes

SP (desert to water tile), Smo (water to watermill from Mos), Mos (5 scientists + 3 merchants), Irk (water to windmill), Kha (Rice to 4F), Chi(takes Rice), Kur (Spice to Iron)

Feel free to jump in when you have spare time (like 3~4 days for a 5 turn-set), so that I could draw some time for xOTM.

kossin · Dec 3, 2010

Ok, I will try to take a look tomorrow.
From memory it seems fine though.

kossin · Dec 4, 2010

Ok plan sounds good.

One thing you mentioned earlier is a CM from Vladivostok to spread Confu to Novos... could be this turn or not.

Feel free to play whenever you want. If I get a few days of spare time, I'll jump in for 5 turns.

Duckweed · Dec 5, 2010

Yes, the CM is in Novos and will spread next turn.

Will play tomorrow.

Duckweed · Dec 5, 2010

Game log

Spoiler :

Game Report

Not much to be mentioned.

Capture Hangzhou in the last turn, the battle RNG was favorable, however it lost all the buildings.

Religion and Corporation

Spoiler :

3 major issues for the next set.

1. Tech -- when to finish Astro, are we going to bulb the GS?
2. Civic
3. List of cities want Sushi and priority

kossin · Dec 5, 2010

Well done!

Things are looking very good. There are a few city micro things to change but that's about it.

Regarding:

1. I thought we'd put a few turns of 0% on Astronomy to mass some gold from The Colossus before going 100%.
We need 5 GPs for the last 2 GAs.
We have: 1 GA, 1 GM and 1 GS.
We'll get: 1 GS (Physics), 46% another GS in 2 turns, 1 GE (Fusion- settle probably).
Already: total 2~3 GS - bulb at least 1... we can maybe bulb 3 of them overall.

2. FM vs Mercantilism: we can decide with the test game.
OR vs Pacifism vs FR: uncertain. OR's usefulness is ending but then I am not certain what is more useful between Pacifism and FR: can we gain 1 extra GS from Pacifism? Would it be worth more than 10% science?
Slavery vs Caste: we'll probably want Caste soon.

3. Washington for sure... slow growing cities... need to check more accurately.

Duckweed · Dec 5, 2010

1. We are working ~175 water tiles, Astro costs 175C, Electricity adds ~92C. 2 turns or more to save enough cash for full 100% slider to superconductor? Probably the latter makes more sense.

2. The beakers from Repre are a little less than the extra trade route (18 foreign trade routes). 1 Eng makes 3~4H extra, so specialists from 43 cities makes < 43 * 3~4H = ~150H. FM saves 18*16*25% + 5*40*25% = 122g. Merc is still a little better at the moment when considering the GPPs. However, FM will exceed in the next turn when 5 MEs and 2~3 SEs spread. Conclusion, FM next turn. We need a couple of GPs from Chita and Tv in the next 16 turns, I guess Pacifism is necessary.

3. Washington? I guess you mean New York. I think most of cities can use Sushi. The cost of Sushi is ~ (30-12)= 18gpt + 100H + spreading cash. The yield from 2 extra citizens will cover the 18gpt. The question is how many turns does it needs to pay for the 100H + spreading fee?

BTW Have time for the next set?

kossin · Dec 5, 2010

1. Makes sense to save up until we can go full fledge to SC. Furthermore, we're building a few Libraries/Universities so it wouldn't hurt to wait for them.

2. Agree. Finish the last CM. We can still make some from Tours (spread to Churchill?).

3. I did mean Washington. It's a good place for GPP and production (workshop everything, it's one of the better spots). But yes New York too

All the small cities will profit the most from Sushi.

I would argue however that the gpt to maintain is higher, 30 is for small cities. It will be 35/city (size 13) very soon and 40/city (size 17) soon after that. ~1gpt per additional pop.
Cities will grow 1 pop/turn until size ~15 and every 1.5 turn to 20, the cost will be closer to 40gpt per turn.
So 22 gpt/turn is maybe 3 citizens (say Merchants = 3~6 gpt+3~6 beakers)... still good.
How much gold is the spread? I'm assuming about ~75 like the MEs.
Let's assume 30 turns to end of game... that means 25~26 turns of research. Let's say 25 as 'worst case scenario'.

Total cost is 100H+~75gold+-22gpt (assume 1H = 1G)
For
25 turns that means 725 gold total but as gpt it's 30 (rounded to more expensive)

Spoiler :

If we value a citizen as 3~6 b + 3~6 g = 6~12 gold ~ 9 gold then Sushi needs to provide these amount (rounded up) of extra pops to be a good investment:

Spoiler :

If we use 12/citizen instead:

Spoiler :

If we assume 2pops every 3 turns, then the cutoff is around ~18 turns from now to spread Sushi with a profit. Worst case, I'd say 15 turns. That's still about enough time to spread to every city we own.

Next set: I could try but I'm really not convinced I can pull it off. Unless I can do it in the next 3 days, it won't happen for about a week and a half.

Duckweed · Dec 5, 2010

Washington has 10F plus already, it's one of the cities not in my mind. The major problem is the unhappiness from motherhood.

I used Moscow (size 20) as reference, Sushi costs 43g now, switching to FM reduces its cost to 43*(1-0.25) = 32~33g. Therefore the average cost of Sushi is ~ 30 -12 (from Shrine) gpt. My consideration of Sushi cities are those having high happiness and health cap for growth. Small cities obvious match the condition.

If you have difficulty in playing recently, I'm fine to play it ~5 turns per 3~4 days.

kossin · Dec 5, 2010

Ah, I totally forgot FM discount -_-
In any case, the answer still holds, but it's even better. As long as a city can support the happiness, Sushi spread is worth it. Healthiness is an issue but shouldn't break the decision.

I think you'd probably take the next 10~15 turns as there's a good chance we stagnate for 3 days otherwise.

Duckweed · Dec 6, 2010

Plan for 6 turns

Military -- Sign peace with Mao when available, send elite units to Kras for the war with Stalin

Tech -- Stay 0% on Astro for 3~4 turns and then push to superconductor

Civic -- Switch to CS + FM + Pacifism next turn

GP -- Then hire about a dozen of scientists in Tv and Merchants in Chita

Workers -- Mainly improvements in recently captured cities and changing farms to WS.

Mine and Sushi -- Mine to every city except Hangzhou, Sushi to most cities except -- Beijing, Washington, Boston, Hangzhou and Vla for sure and possibly Chicago and other cities? Sushi will follow the same route to setup the spreading centers 1st.

City build -- Factory and CP in Atl and Hangzhou seems not profitable. Not very sure whether to build Factory and CP in cities like Kur, Trap, and Phil. Cities will also start building workers and wealth.

IBT changes

Wash (whip fac), Guangzhou (Whip fac), Mag (univ and whip next turn), Ast( whip fact, to copper), Kur(Forge and whip next turn), Mur (Market, 5H to water tile), Phil(Spy to citizen), NY (Eng to Pri, water tile to WM), Seattle(to WM), Beijing(Corn to 5H), Nov(worker), Sam (AUTO OFF, spy to Eng)

kossin · Dec 6, 2010

Tech: I know it's early but what do you envision the tech path to be until Fusion?

Going by my analysis on post #816 , Factory+CP for 20~25 turns needs 22~27 base hammers to be profitable. So I guess that yes, it's not a good investment in Atlanta+Hangzhou. Better use the pops to whip Obs+Research Institute imo. These cities main priority should be research/wealth... easier to contribute research than wealth so skip Fac+CP.

Mining: skip in Hangzhou depends on when it gets CH imo... it should pay for itself in 6 turns otherwise.

Sushi:
Ok to skip: Beijing, Vlad, Boston, Chicago. I will need to look more carefully at other cities that don't have a huge happy cap room, especially larger cities that would only gain a few turns of extra pops.

Whip as many things as you can this and next turn because we won't be in Slavery for a little bit.

Golden Age:
Do you want to trigger the next GA? I say yes. What GPs to use? Keep the GA as it is more likely we don't get more of that kind. GM is free to go with GS I guess or wait 2 turns to see what we get in Moscow (if GA then GA+GM).

Troops: maybe spend some gold to upgrade ~3 galleys to Galleons? We have a lot of workers to move around to all those bloody islands so the extra 2 movements will greatly help.

We will need a multiple strike on Stalin as he spread his Tacs to various cities. Good thing is his newer cities are protected by Archers :lol:

Finally, I just remembered we'll have 10 turns (yes, dumb I know) to finish clearing out fallout after launching therefore we don't really need that many workers just now. Maybe start sending a few to far places (South of Churchill). We will need to DoW Roosevelt to clean one of his tiles... maybe gift him a city far north so we can just take his city instead?

We can also consider gifting Gandhi up to Ecology so he starts cleaning his own island for us.

Duckweed · Dec 6, 2010

kossin said:
Tech: I know it's early but what do you envision the tech path to be until Fusion?

Nah, I usually don't think too far away at the moment.

Going by my analysis on post #816 , Factory+CP for 20~25 turns needs 22~27 base hammers to be profitable. So I guess that yes, it's not a good investment in Atlanta+Hangzhou. Better use the pops to whip Obs+Research Institute imo. These cities main priority should be research/wealth... easier to contribute research than wealth so skip Fac+CP.

You did not answer my real question -- "Not very sure whether to build Factory and CP in cities like Kur, Trap, and Phil."

Mining: skip in Hangzhou depends on when it gets CH imo... it should pay for itself in 6 turns otherwise.

Sushi:
Ok to skip: Beijing, Vlad, Boston, Chicago. I will need to look more carefully at other cities that don't have a huge happy cap room, especially larger cities that would only gain a few turns of extra pops.

Whip as many things as you can this and next turn because we won't be in Slavery for a little bit.

That's why I changed many cities build to Universities.

Golden Age:
Do you want to trigger the next GA? I say yes. What GPs to use? Keep the GA as it is more likely we don't get more of that kind. GM is free to go with GS I guess or wait 2 turns to see what we get in Moscow (if GA then GA+GM).

Right, depends on what's from Moscow 2 turns later.

Troops: maybe spend some gold to upgrade ~3 galleys to Galleons? We have a lot of workers to move around to all those bloody islands so the extra 2 movements will greatly help.

It's cheaper to build new galleons. Galley's movement will be 4 soon.

We will need a multiple strike on Stalin as he spread his Tacs to various cities. Good thing is his newer cities are protected by Archers

That's your job.

Finally, I just remembered we'll have 10 turns (yes, dumb I know) to finish clearing out fallout after launching therefore we don't really need that many workers just now. Maybe start sending a few to far places (South of Churchill). We will need to DoW Roosevelt to clean one of his tiles... maybe gift him a city far north so we can just take his city instead?

No need to capture that city.

We can also consider gifting Gandhi up to Ecology so he starts cleaning his own island for us.

Yes, for now I'm worried that Gandhi is going for Democracy, that will increase our unhappiness.

Comments.

kossin · Dec 6, 2010

Kur/Phil/Trap: skip Fac+CP, didn't say it clear enough :lol:

kossin said:
Going by my analysis on post #816 , Factory+CP for 20~25 turns needs 22~27 base hammers to be profitable. So I guess that yes, it's not a good investment in Atlanta+Hangzhou. Better use the pops to whip Obs+Research Institute imo. These cities main priority should be research/wealth... easier to contribute research than wealth so skip Fac+CP.

Roose: you're right. Less hammers spent this way.

Gandhi: what's the likelihood we can bribe him to civics so he doesn't go Emancipation?

kossin · Dec 6, 2010

After further review, I don't really see other cities where we wouldn't want Sushi. We will of course need another quick 5 turns into Slavery to whip Research Institutes so the extra food will be most welcome.

Ninja EDIT: congrats on complete BOTM awards!

Duckweed · Dec 6, 2010

Gandhi: what's the likelihood we can bribe him to civics so he doesn't go Emancipation?

Emancipation is the most advanced civic in that column, so that's impossible for an independent AI.

Mining: skip in Hangzhou depends on when it gets CH imo... it should pay for itself in 6 turns otherwise.

Without Factory and CP, Mine gets paid back much slower.

kossin · Dec 6, 2010

Soon to be 19 hammers per turn...

(100H+~75gold)/19 = 9~10 turns... indeed. Still...

Duckweed · Dec 6, 2010

Have to stop 1 turn earlier since I saw a very bad sign.

Our worker can not clear fallout in a friendly AI's land. :aargh:

We need to think carefully how to deal with it and probably revise our plan a lot!

Fortunately I sent a worker now. :run:

Game Log

Spoiler :

Game Report

T224 -- Sign peace with Mao with the Trojan city back and then gift it Stalin as we could then OB with him

Spoiler :

A GS was born in Moscow, so I used a GS + GM to launch the GA. Also the cash should be enough to complete Superconductor.

Spoiler :

This what I said about the bad thing. You can see that our worker does not have the SF option.

Spoiler :

kossin · Dec 6, 2010

Waaah, that's one heck of a major bummer !!!

SGOTM 12 - Plastic Ducks

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