SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

@Ras, Spam more.

Maybe I'll still recruit you. I see you're signing up for other SG's now...

@LC, no idea when. It depends a bit on how spread out his units will be, I guess. Are you concerned that we don't actually want 10t? Comments on MM later...

babybluepants said:

@Ras, Spam more.

Maybe I'll still recruit you. I see you're signing up for other SG's now...

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Maybe next game... I don't want to mess (or take credit for) the very good game you have been building up

You shall regret the first sentence

babybluepants said:

Do we wanna try working towards a 10t DoP?
If not, do we wanna DOW him instead?

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I suggest that we assume bestsss is correct in that Churchill would DoW us in 6t at the earliest. That would mean no need for DoP and that gives us about 3 turns to prepare, as I understand it. Churchill can reach Rheims in 2t, so Rheims could start walls after the DoW and complete them on time. Churchill can reach Orleans in 1 turn so it would have to pre-build the walls for 1 turn, so it can complete them in 1t, if necessary. I would suggest that we start that build in Orleans now, just to play it safe. My hunch is that Orleans will be Churchill's target since he has no iron.

Then we should attempt to continue with our overall strategic plans as much as possible, but doing our best to have enough units available in the Orleans-Rheims area to handle an attack. As you guys ponited out, we can use this to our advantage if it enables us to attack in the field rather than in a city. Furthermore, it wouldn't count against our WW.

If Churchill does anything unexpected, then we should probably stop and regroup.

Good luck, bbp!

What is our power compared to Churchill's? Is there any chance he is going after Mao instead?
Is our power intimidating to Churchill? Or do you need a massive advantage power wise to prevent the AI from declaring war on you? (Sorry away from the game so I can't check our relative powers)

There are different dynamics for a dog-pile war right?

And there is the possibility of a "dagger" DoW that doesn't require a period of build up?

bcool said:

What is our power compared to Churchill's? Is there any chance he is going after Mao instead?
Is our power intimidating to Churchill? Or do you need a massive advantage power wise to prevent the AI from declaring war on you? (Sorry away from the game so I can't check our relative powers)

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We're first in power, but only by a hair - presumably Roosevelt's #2. AI average would be intimidated, but I assume Churchill's ahead of that.

Pretty sure dagger means without WHEOOHRN. No? This is war prep, so unless it's a different type of war than the two bestsss described, we should have 6-10t from red fist, I think.

I agree with LC's suggestions above, is what I'm saying.

This all doesn't even really matter, though. We obviously have to treat it like we are the target (i.e. walls built, some extra drafting up front, give up on Hangzhou and possibly delay Nanjing, etc), and we were gonna DOW him in about 5-8t anyway.

Sorry, boys. Squeezed in 2t tonight, but I really don't have the time. 3 nights in a row is a bit much for my marriage to take. I'll see about finishing the set tmr morning.

Churchill's stack is stationed in Marseilles, and he upgraded his archers to LB's. Maybe he did do a GM mission, but the cash wasn't available for trade? Roosevelt's stack is 1t from taking Hangzhou. We are Churchill's WE.

Turnsets at this point in the game are complex. The way CIV starts each turn, winding you through some pop-up screens, then jumping from unit to unit all over the map in no logical sequence (for us) is all very distracting. Then there are the ongoing wars. THen there's forgetting to cancel workers orders. It's easy to make mistakes or forget stuff.

That's where the PPP comes in. That's where the end-of-turn checklist comes in.

In SG2, while CFR was crushing the opposition, Balbes made this interesting observation:

Balbes said:

Anyway, Fistful of Dynamite are a relatively strong team but not outstanding early-mid to mid game managers. We should be able to stay ahead of them.

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Imo, at this point in the game, most important is that we play carefully and patiently, follow our strategy, and not do anything extreme.

We're in a very strong position. We just need to continue.

Turnsets at this point in the game are complex. The way CIV starts each turn, winding you through some pop-up screens, then jumping from unit to unit all over the map in no logical sequence (for us) is all very distracting. Then there are the ongoing wars. THen there's forgetting to cancel workers orders. It's easy to make mistakes or forget stuff.

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I highly recommend the game option "minimize pop ups" This prevents CIV from starting your turn with a bunch of random pop ups. You can control your focus better.

bcool said:

What is our power compared to Churchill's? Is there any chance he is going after Mao instead?
Is our power intimidating to Churchill? Or do you need a massive advantage power wise to prevent the AI from declaring war on you? (Sorry away from the game so I can't check our relative powers)

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We're playing aggressive AI which means AIs consider themselves even stronger when considering DoWs. Our power is 576. I calculated that Gandhi+Churchill = ~1100 and Churchill isn't afraid of Gandhi, so he must be pretty close to half of that, meaning I don't think Churchill is intimidated by us.

babybluepants said:

Sorry, boys. Squeezed in 2t tonight, but I really don't have the time. 3 nights in a row is a bit much for my marriage to take. I'll see about finishing the set tmr morning.

Churchill's stack is stationed in Marseilles, and he upgraded his archers to LB's. Maybe he did do a GM mission, but the cash wasn't available for trade? Roosevelt's stack is 1t from taking Hangzhou. We are Churchill's WE.

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I don't understand, did you play further? Did you upload? Did we finish Steel in 2t, as bcool suggested?

No, I didn't upload, 'cause nothing much happened and I planned to play 5t. Played another 2t and uploaded. I think I should hand off here, as I'm very busy the rest of this week. Also, as the war plans shifted around during my set, I feel my units are a bit aimless at this point (i.e. not sure how we wanna proceed against Churchill and Roosevelt). Time for a fresh set of eyes.

Churchill: nothing much. Stack sitting in Marseilles. Odd units moving up north. I think we're def. the target. This is either bestsss' 10t prep or he doesn't have enough attack units yet. In any case, we have a bunch of muskets sitting between Orleans and Rheims, and some siege in Rheims (including a cannon ). I wish he'd DOW and move out most of his stack, 'cause I think we can wipe it out in the open now.

Roosevelt: captured Hangzhou I didn't settle Kam-3S until this turn, as stupid DG somehow managed to build another unit in his crappy size-1 city. Meant I was 1 attack unit short of razing last turn. Anyway, need a turn of culture. Also, Hangz doesn't have the full stationary discount yet (since we didn't plan on that initially). We have 1300+ ep against him now and 500-ish per turn sustainable. I'm wondering if we wanna consider revolting some cities (might make the initial American war faster?)

Mao: our stack is NNE of Nanjing, with 3 more trebs a turn behind (east of Shanghai). He has a bunch of caravels, and I think we're losing the Beijing fish. What can you do?

There's a settler in Orleans meant for hammer city. Beijing settler in queue was meant for Hangz-2W. Not sure we need to complete now.

Decided to build IA in Bahamas as per mdy after all. Figure it can't really hurt to open some more spy slots for later GP, or maybe speed up some tech steal by a turn.

GP Farm is regrowing every turn. We have a bunch of muskets already. Paris and Fish are building a cannon each right now (need Guilds to proceed in Fish). Moscow is running sci when we have enough hammers for 1t build.

Circumnavigated this turn. No announcement yet (I think after turn roll). Idiot Roosevelt sent his caravel to Kamchatka and Gandhi apparently doesn't like to build them.

I think that's it. I'm sure there's a lot of weed in the save, so the next turn player can ask(scold) me about it as it comes up. Who's up, btw? Mitchum, you available now?

Edit: I traded Liberalism for DR+map, in case we want Versailles. Realize I'm not clear on our Versailles plans. If we didn't build it, Roosevelt surely would - that may be ok. Then we'd do FP in Hastings roughly?

Edit2: Used the Hangz-2W ConfMiss to spread in Orleans. Troy got Buddhism immediately.

Edit3: Churchill has Machinery now, and I spotted one mace in York this turn.

Edit4:
Rheims - I thought I'd build a trireme in advance of the England war. We'll probably need a couple. He doesn't have Optics yet, so trireme should be good enough for the near future.
Bananas - did LH as per LC. Then library - they're cheap and it's kind of a shame no to have one everywhere.
Kamchatka - forge as placeholder. Maybe we want another settler to iceball Mao? Not a rush, but it might be useful to free up St Nick at some point for future stealing.

LowtherCastle said:

Did we finish Steel in 2t, as bcool suggested?

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Missed that suggestion, but I'm not sure I could have (without major sacrifices). I actually ran 10% culture for a turn to get rid of a bunch of red faces (T-1). That may have been silly... Anyway, Steel was done in 3t and we have our first cannons out. I'm excited now.

LowtherCastle said:

Turnsets at this point in the game are complex. The way CIV starts each turn, winding you through some pop-up screens, then jumping from unit to unit all over the map in no logical sequence (for us) is all very distracting. Then there are the ongoing wars. THen there's forgetting to cancel workers orders. It's easy to make mistakes or forget stuff.

That's where the PPP comes in. That's where the end-of-turn checklist comes in.

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Agreed. I was quite sloppy this TS and cycling through everything is getting quite tedious now (nothing compared to 50 cities with corp-spreading and maxing research later). Tends to happen when there's multiple wars combined with lots of other tactical issues. Why I usually just go for broke during this midgame war period and tune out all else (in solo games).

Good playing, bbp!

Got it. I'll take a look at the save and start putting together a PPP.

Please post your comments/suggestions and let's keep the discussion going, which should help me incorporate many of your ideas in the first draft.

@bbp - Is it time to give up the test game or do you have something? It is getting a bit complex to keep up, so unless you did so as you were playing along, it may be very tough.

Mitchum said:

@bbp - Is it time to give up the test game or do you have something? It is getting a bit complex to keep up, so unless you did so as you were playing along, it may be very tough.

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No, I didn't follow along. In fact, I didn't even open the test save to test.

Hate to be the one to end it, after making LC and bcool do it, but I simply won't have time for it 'till Saturday. If you guys want, I'll try to do it then.

babybluepants said:

No, I didn't follow along. In fact, I didn't even open the test save to test.

Hate to be the one to end it, after making LC and bcool do it, but I simply won't have time for it 'till Saturday. If you guys want, I'll try to do it then.

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Well, if you didn't use it to test, then I guess it's outlived its usefulness. Thanks to everyone for keeping it up to date this far.

Major thing this TS is to squeeze in the other 5 banks. I haven't really even thought about it - the research/stealing kinda snuck up on me in the end.

Edit:

Mitchum said:

Well, if you didn't use it to test, then I guess it's outlived its usefulness. Thanks to everyone for keeping it up to date this far.

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I don't ever test that much beyond the early game. Seems like some of you like to, so I'll do it unless there's a 100% majority against. Just can't 'till the weekend...

I haven't gotten a chance to look at the game, but...

Major goal in your turnset Mitchum is getting the techs from Rosey and getting as close as you can to medicine. I would think a switch to free market at the end of the GA and starting sushi is an important goal.

A short list of things we want/need
We need a Great Merchant?
We need banks like bbp said
We need to end the churchill threat and start his conquest (and I think balancing a few cannon upgrades might make sense)
We need as many courthouses finished before the switch to free market as we can
We need the FP built (and possibly Versailles started)

A concern (but probably not something to worry about?)
Would Rosey attack us at Pleased? He is a real threat and will probably have Cuirassier before too long.

babybluepants said:

He has a bunch of caravels, and I think we're losing the Beijing fish. What can you do?

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Thumb your nose at them, they can't pillage.

babybluepants said:

Circumnavigated this turn. No announcement yet (I think after turn roll).

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babybluepants said:

Edit: I traded Liberalism for DR+map, in case we want Versailles.

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babybluepants said:

Troy got Buddhism immediately.

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Troy just became more expensive than Xian and Philadelphia to steal techs from. And worse, because every turn our cultural bonus will decrease. We should have spread Confu first thing.

Here are the current prices to steal techs from Roosy: We need to figure out some intelligent way to maximize our benefits here. It's not easy because we only have five spies in Troy anyway.

Notes:
1. Hangzhou is of course useless for tech stealing (no religion, no culture). It's purpose is solely to enable us to gift Vladivostok.
2. We no longer get the 20% trade route discount because Roosy revolted to Mercantilism during bbp's turnset.
3. We have ony 5 spies in Troy.
4. The table includes the Silver City site, for comparison.