TGOMTG Conquest Class Challenge (C3C)

Bede

Deity
Joined
Oct 24, 2003
Messages
8,160
Location
Cape Cod
C3C 1.22
Emperor Level
Variant Rules: No self research, no Great Wonders, Bede's Twisted
Standard Map
Continents 60% water
Temperate climate
Wet
Mature world (neither young, nor old, like me :D )

Random start will be posted later.

Pretty straightforward, you say :mischief:

"Bede's Twisted Variant" requires that we play as the Americans, no SCI/REL cheap culture, no COM commerce bonus, no AGRI food bonus, no Middle Ages or Industrial Age Golden Age. And all the opponents are Scientific.

Roster preference given to Conquest Class COTM players who have posted in the "Hunting Tips" Thread.

Regent/Monarch level players looking to upgrade their skills encouraged to join.

Roster:
namliaM
Methos
S'ven
soul warrior
The Grumpy Old Monk of Training Games (Bede)
 
lurker's comment: Signing in as a background process ;)
 
Bede said:
Emperor Level
Variant Rules: No self research, no Great Wonders, ...

Emperor level!?! Wow, this is going to be really tough! No problem with the wonders as I’ve learned how much they can hurt your game when you build them a lot. The no research means we’ll have plenty of cash for upgrades and trading.

Sounds like this game is going to be war heavy. That’s good since I’m not very good at warmongering.
 
Well, I'll join. I'll probably be consulting you guys quite often, as this is the first SG I've ever joined. I'll do my best not to screw everything up.
 
lurker's comment: holy molly. the monk has gone away to be replaced by Svetlana, Igors twisted sister.
this i must do. or see. so lets call it a tentative sign up as my utmost effort will be into the SGOTM7 and doing my homework on AWD.
i have to keep fighting the images in my mind explore, explore, the settlers will do JUST fine unescorted, explore. thanks a lot, whomp :D
am i lurking or stalking? you be the judge :D
 
lurker's comment: Sounds fun, but I don't have the time (or qualifications) to play.
One thing though. Since you can't have Great Wonders and America's UU is in the Modern Age, was saying no Middle Age or Industrial Age GA really necessary? ;) You'll be forced to wait till the Modern Age to have a GA no matter what.
 
lurker's comment: Awesome! You guys are very lucky. Bede is a really good teacher. Bede you should post your rules for trading.
Methos said:
The no research means we’ll have plenty of cash for upgrades and trading.
Oh and so much more!! :evil:
 
Methos said:
Emperor level!?! Wow, this is going to be really tough! No problem with the wonders as I’ve learned how much they can hurt your game when you build them a lot. The no research means we’ll have plenty of cash for upgrades and trading.

Sounds like this game is going to be war heavy. That’s good since I’m not very good at warmongering.

And the emphasis will be on superior tactics, not superior troops.

I've played a couple of games with this variant and settings (none all the way to the end) just to get a feel for how it will go, and it is "tough" in a good way. Lots of diplomacy, lots of trading, lots of city management, and a good amount of warfare.

S'ven said:
Well, I'll join. I'll probably be consulting you guys quite often, as this is the first SG I've ever joined. I'll do my best not to screw everything up.

Welcome, S'ven. That's what it is all about. The nice thing about an SG is that you can stop and ask questions, for assistance or suggestions. It is a team effort.


soul_warrior said:
lurker's comment: holy molly. the monk has gone away to be replaced by Svetlana, Igors twisted sister.
this i must do. or see. so lets call it a tentative sign up as my utmost effort will be into the SGOTM7 and doing my homework on AWD.
i have to keep fighting the images in my mind explore, explore, the settlers will do JUST fine unescorted, explore. thanks a lot, whomp :D
am i lurking or stalking? you be the judge :D

soulw, you are so in. This will liven things up!

handy900 said:
lurker's comment: Not a signup. Can you capture wonders, or no wonders ever?

Capture always, build never! And all small wonders are fair game. Be nice to win by Space.

IroquoisPlisken said:
lurker's comment: Sounds fun, but I don't have the time (or qualifications) to play.
One thing though. Since you can't have Great Wonders and America's UU is in the Modern Age, was saying no Middle Age or Industrial Age GA really necessary? ;) You'll be forced to wait till the Modern Age to have a GA no matter what.

Not really necessary but is an important part of the variant so I wanted it clear at the outset.

Anybody care to take a stab at why it is important?

namliaM said:
I am allready in but .... Just saying *I am here* :)

And welcome.

I will try and post a start later tonight so we can discuss the opening moves tomorrow.

Any volunteers for the first twenty turns?
Whomp said:
lurker's comment: Bede you should post your rules for trading.

All in good time. No temple rant in this game, though.
 
@Bede
Just finished a similar solo game at Regent level.
Tried also a game as the Mongols non-research + non-trading
techs game,thus only stealing,goody huts and peace negotiations,
but quit after 3 (of 4) safe stealing failures in the Medieval era and
losing about 6000 gold.(Did get Writing + Literature from goody huts.)
Guess such a game will be too hard.
 
The starting postion


TGOTM.jpg



The 4000BC Save

Let's discuss the opening twenty turns in some detail including scout and worker moves.

As I see our objectives we want maximum commerce and as many contacts and barbarian visits as we manage.

Remember the Americans are expansionist so paying courtesy calls on tribal villages will not annoy them. What tactics will give us a better return on those calls? (As an old Sales Manager of mine used to say "If you don't have plan, just stay in the car")

The rotation will be set tomorrow. Any volunteer for the lead off position?
 
Since some of us are new to the SG scene here are some Etiquette Guidelines(shamelessly cribbed from TedJackson and scoutsout)

General SG Etiquette Guidelines
Please do:
Let the team know if you're going to be unable to play for an extended period - holiday, illness, exams etc.
Post a "Got it" notice or ask for a skip within 24 hours of the save becoming available (I reserve the right to skip a player who hasn't responded after the 24 hour grace period is over).
Play and post within 48 hours of posting a "Got it".

Write up a log of the events occurring during your turn and post it along with your save.
Provide notes for the next player as to the current situation and any immediate plans for the future - are those Caravels heading NE or SW? is that Swordsman fortified to heal or act as a lookout? Our forces are mustering for an attack on...

Feel free to pause and ask for advice, or simply discuss, if a situation arisies in the game and you're unsure of the best course of action.

Please do not:
Automate Workers.
Use City Governors unless the team has discussed and agreed their use.
Leave units on goto orders that will extend beyond your turn.
Make deals on your last turn. However, you should notify the next player if trading opportunities exist.
Make wholesale changes to build orders on the inherited turn without consulting the team.


General Gameplay Notes
Reputation: we will need to protect our reputation very carefully in the early part of the game. Losing the ability to make GPT deals early on would make the game much harder.

Brokering: for those unfamiliar with the term it's just a shorthand for acting as "middleman" in deals - e.g. buying a tech from Civ A then selling it on to Civs B, D & E (hopefully picking up something else of value along the way). We'll need to be on the lookout for brokering opportunities at every turn so I suggest that we use CRPMapstat to monitor trade opportunities. This utility offers no information that cannot be gained by slogging through the Diplomatic screens every turn, it just presents the information quickly and simply.

Keeping the AI Isolated (from each other): again, this is an important factor that will help us to maintain our position as a broker. Even if we have to devote significant resources to keeping the AI isolated we will still benefit by controlling trade. Obviously this situation can only last until the end of the Middle Ages but it is well worth the effort!

Roads: we will need every gold piece we can lay our hands on in the early game so building roads has an even higher priority than normal. We really don't want our citizens working unroaded tiles.
 
Bede said:
IroqouisPlisken said:
One thing though. Since you can't have Great Wonders and America's UU is in the Modern Age, was saying no Middle Age or Industrial Age GA really necessary? You'll be forced to wait till the Modern Age to have a GA no matter what.
Not really necessary but is an important part of the variant so I wanted it clear at the outset.

Anybody care to take a stab at why it is important?
lurker's comment: Is it because you're going to need all the gold you can get to buy the super expensive modern age techs from the AI? I'd imagine the commerce bonus from seafaring or (especially) commercial would help a lot, but you don't have either trait. I have no idea how stealing prices scale, though, so I could be way off on this guess.
 
Hmm, first I’d say we stay away from the goody hut as we’ve got nothing to defend ourselves from any rampaging barbarians. Plus as I recall, if you build the city with the goody hut within the cultural boundary, or your boundary overtakes it, you will not get rampaging barbarians. This may be incorrect, I can’t remember exactly.

I need to look at our traits again as I forgot we got a scout from being Expansionist. My opinion would be to move the scout south and than east onto the mountain. This would allow us better vision of the surrounding territory. Due to the increase in commerce I believe we should stick near the river.

With the two bonus grassland within our radius now it is in my opinion we build right here. This is of course if our scout doesn’t spot any bonus resources to the south.

Almost forgot, before moving or settling the settler I suggest moving the worker to the bg northwest of the start location.

Assuming we build at the start location I’d say road the bg to the NW and then mine. After that road and mine the bg to the S of the start location.

Question: I’m not familiar with that terrain style so what is the tiles E, E and SE, SE, SE? Is it some sort of modified jungle?

Build sequence: I’m not entirely sure. I’m guessing scout, warrior, scout, worker. I’m not for sure. The only Emperor game I ever played was a XOTM game and I got hammered due to not enough military units. Should we build more military or work more on expansion first?

Bede said:
Not really necessary but is an important part of the variant so I wanted it clear at the outset.

Anybody care to take a stab at why it is important?

I'm assuming this will help boost our economy more about the time we may be attempting a Space victory. Not for sure, just taking a guess.
 
A late GA means a lot of extra commerce when most productive. If we have mostly city's with banks and such

I to will volentier for the first 20 (same question, each "turn" is 20 turns?)

Keeping the AI isolated, probably means Controle chocke points. This i learned in my the GOTM Arabia.

CRpMapstat, I (started) using CivAssist a while ago and like it very much. Any objections?

Goody hut. IIRC from reading on the war accademy. You cannot get barbs while you dont have any military units yourself.
I looked up the article on GHs http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_goodyhuts.shtml
Seeing as we are expansionist, we need not worry about barbs at all (accoording to that article).

I would be intrested in knowing what that coastline is, is it a lake or sea?
If it is a lake, it might be a nice move to settle on the lake. If a sea its good to get city#2 or 3 on the see to get a curragh out.

I downloaded the save to look at it in default Map. IMO:
S-SE and S-SW are swamps
SE-SE-SE (beyond the mountain) and E-E are Jungles
N-NW Plain-Forest.

Being near the equatar S and SE are likely to be jungles. Meaning (I read somewhere) nice grass underneath but needs lots of chopping => meaning again "lots and lots" of worker turns. (a couple of extra workers will be necesarry?!)
If there is indeed an extended jungle this also means our scout cannot make use of his 2 steps. Suggest exploring NW-N-NE and if possible SW.

Personally I would, probably, be against settling "on" the spot. The 2 forests are nice and the river and BG are too. This however also means we will have 2 march in the city range and probably 2 water tiles (W-NW adn W-SW) with which we know not what to do (like building a boat).
- Moving onto either BG is not an option (to me).
- Moving SE onto the forest is a lost chop (minus 10 shields) and would loose us the second forest as well and put Jungle and marsch into the city radius.

Moving W, SW, NE or N remain options.
- Moving NE leaves us with the pro's (Forests & BG & River) but not the cons (No water and no marsch)
- Moving N we loose a BG and gain a water (comparing to NE). On the other hand we leave behind the (in the early going useless) mountian and will not have (what looks like) the second hill (E-NE-NE) in the city radius
Probably more grass due N-NW. Maybe that would be BG as well? (whisfull thinking)
- Moving W or SW will set us water side which might be nice for using a Curragh (if Sea) for exploring. Moving W will leave us the 2 forest, while moving SW will leave us only 1. Also SW will give us (atleast) 2 march instead of 1 if we move SW.

All in all I would move my worker NW over the river to the BG. This is bad because the road will not "work" when moving over the river, but will give us a nice view of the water. If its sea, I may consider moving W (in favour of moving SW) for the scouting possibility of the Curragh.
Moving W will mean our Capital is "low" on shields 2 BG & a plains. Mining the BG & Irrigating the plains (after chop) leaves us 6 Shields. Which is not to bad I guess.

I would move the Scout NW-N, suspecting Jungle to the S, SE and E to explore option N or NE. Depending on what he finds deside weather or not that is interesting. BG or a cow maybe even wheat would be good reasons to go either N or NE.
- NE would leave us with (atleast) the mountain, 2 hills and a jungle, the 2 current BG, the 2 forest and the discovered tiles by the scout.
- N will leave behind a BG and put the mountain, the 2nd hill and the jungle outside of city radius. It will also include 3 undiscovered tiles. 2 of which may be nice due to the suggested precence of the river commerce.
1 or 2 of the 3 are likely to be plains due to the plain forest.
Also the "rogue" water tile is still in the city radius.

Depending on what the Scout and Worker tell us. But at the moment that is my view on things. I will probably favour N or W, but NE is an option as well.

Build sequence would be Scout, Warior (MP)
This will take 10 turns, Industrious means that Mine takes only 4 turns and road 2. Road the BG then mine. Will mean mine ready on build before production of turn 1 of the 2nd scout (tested it in a seperate test scenario).
While Mine-road will be mine will be finished on the 4th turn of the 1st scout. Gaining us nothing and loosing a few $ vs the other scenario. Using the mine will reduce the build time to 9 turns.
The hopefully moving the worker to a Bonus (cow or so) or 2nd BG for the same sequence. If we have atleast another BG somewhere in the city radius the second worker will be done in 3 turns being turn 12. Then I am not sure.
Should we go for a granary upping the Lux along the way?
We now have 2 workers 2 scouts 1 warior, already 1 to many costing use 1 gpt. An additional warrior for MP would cost 10 shields and 1gpt while upping the lux would do the same (cost 1 gpt) but save the 10 shields. So up the lux it is and build a granary, Chop chop = 20 shields leaving 40. 1 mined BG @ 3spt. For another 8 turns leaves 40-(8*3) = 16 shields.
--- Pass turn
At hopefully leaving 3 turns (3*5 + the growth bonus) to finish. Now at size 2.
Particularly if there is no cow or wheat I think we need the granary for the growth.


Throwing another warrior or scout before the granary may be an option. As the granary will finish mid size 2. It need only be there end size 2. Before or after does not really matter I suppose.

1st goal get some lux!

Geez. This is the first time I have given any Civ game such thought.
Should I get something like MSN or so, just so we can "chat away" our game?

Greetz

The Mailman
 
The starting postion
TGOTM.jpg



Bede said:
Let's discuss the opening twenty turns in some detail including scout and worker moves.

well, we need to see our area asap. how to do that? *put on the thinking cap. notice it is furry. remember a story about Bowie (not david) and Ozzy Osbourne. drink a sip of "water" from my canteen.
scouts are the order of the day.
moves. scout to mountain - so he can see all the great white teeth of granny. worker up to BG (another fog busting move, as boone went south).
we settle on place. since no military yet = no barbs = either gold or maps.

bede said:
As I see our objectives we want maximum commerce and as many contacts and barbarian visits as we manage.
that amounts to roads first, mines\water later. that dictates a build order somewhere along these lines - scout > warrior (mp) > scout > granary (even if we have to beg, borrow or steal to get some pot :smoke: > settler or another warrior

bede-lam said:
Remember the Americans are expansionist so paying courtesy calls on tribal villages will not annoy them. What tactics will give us a better return on those calls? (As an old Sales Manager of mine used to say "If you don't have plan, just stay in the car")
see build order and notice the 3 scouts.
we DONT want war this soon, so we keep it nice and friendly.
move fast, grab as many GHuts as possible.

tech? since we are not researching, set it to CB so we dont pop it out of a GH by mistake?

badabing said:
The rotation will be set tomorrow. Any volunteer for the lead off position?
i might, but maybe someone else wants to?
 
lurker's comment:
America. Are Expansionist and Industrious. What do those two things mean?
 
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