Prior Presidents had Wire Tap Authortity also

MobBoss

Off-Topic Overlord
Joined
Oct 28, 2005
Messages
46,853
Location
In Perpetual Motion
Story: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...3632.story?coll=chi-newsopinioncommentary-hed

President Bush's post- Sept. 11, 2001, authorization to the National Security Agency to carry out electronic surveillance into private phone calls and e-mails is consistent with court decisions and with the positions of the Justice Department under prior presidents.

The president authorized the NSA program in response to the 9/11 terrorist attacks on America. An identifiable group, Al Qaeda, was responsible and believed to be planning future attacks in the United States. Electronic surveillance of communications to or from those who might plausibly be members of or in contact with Al Qaeda was probably the only means of obtaining information about what its members were planning next. No one except the president and the few officials with access to the NSA program can know how valuable such surveillance has been in protecting the nation.

In the Supreme Court's 1972 Keith decision holding that the president does not have inherent authority to order wiretapping without warrants to combat domestic threats, the court said explicitly that it was not questioning the president's authority to take such action in response to threats from abroad.

Four federal courts of appeal subsequently faced the issue squarely and held that the president has inherent authority to authorize wiretapping for foreign intelligence purposes without judicial warrant.

In the most recent judicial statement on the issue, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, composed of three federal appellate court judges, said in 2002 that "All the ... courts to have decided the issue held that the president did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence ... We take for granted that the president does have that authority."

The passage of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act in 1978 did not alter the constitutional situation. That law created the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court that can authorize surveillance directed at an "agent of a foreign power," which includes a foreign terrorist group. Thus, Congress put its weight behind the constitutionality of such surveillance in compliance with the law's procedures.

But as the 2002 Court of Review noted, if the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches, "FISA could not encroach on the president's constitutional power."

Every president since FISA's passage has asserted that he retained inherent power to go beyond the act's terms. Under President Clinton, deputy Atty. Gen. Jamie Gorelick testified that "the Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes."

FISA contains a provision making it illegal to "engage in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute." The term "electronic surveillance" is defined to exclude interception outside the U.S., as done by the NSA, unless there is interception of a communication "sent by or intended to be received by a particular, known United States person" (a U.S. citizen or permanent resident) and the communication is intercepted by "intentionally targeting that United States person." The cryptic descriptions of the NSA program leave unclear whether it involves targeting of identified U.S. citizens. If the surveillance is based upon other kinds of evidence, it would fall outside what a FISA court could authorize and also outside the act's prohibition on electronic surveillance.

The administration has offered the further defense that FISA's reference to surveillance "authorized by statute" is satisfied by congressional passage of the post-Sept. 11 resolution giving the president authority to "use all necessary and appropriate force" to prevent those responsible for Sept. 11 from carrying out further attacks. The administration argues that obtaining intelligence is a necessary and expected component of any military or other use of force to prevent enemy action.

But even if the NSA activity is "electronic surveillance" and the Sept. 11 resolution is not "statutory authorization" within the meaning of FISA, the act still cannot, in the words of the 2002 Court of Review decision, "encroach upon the president's constitutional power."

FISA does not anticipate a post-Sept. 11 situation. What was needed after Sept. 11, according to the president, was surveillance beyond what could be authorized under that kind of individualized case-by-case judgment. It is hard to imagine the Supreme Court second-guessing that presidential judgment.

Should we be afraid of this inherent presidential power? Of course. If surveillance is used only for the purpose of preventing another Sept. 11 type of attack or a similar threat, the harm of interfering with the privacy of people in this country is minimal and the benefit is immense. The danger is that surveillance will not be used solely for that narrow and extraordinary purpose.

But we cannot eliminate the need for extraordinary action in the kind of unforeseen circumstances presented by Sept.11. I do not believe the Constitution allows Congress to take away from the president the inherent authority to act in response to a foreign attack. That inherent power is reason to be careful about who we elect as president, but it is authority we have needed in the past and, in the light of history, could well need again

So if it was ok for Carter and Clinton, then whats the big deal with Bush doing it now?:crazyeye:
 
Good point but I don't see why you had to create a whole new topic for it. If you think about, the NSA's project ECHELON and the FBI's CARNIVORE have been spying on all of us anyway for who knows how long, so this entire discussion is moot. I still choose to participate though because if more people can be convinced of the principles of privacy over absolute security, then perhaps one day reform can occur.
 
Foreign vs. domestic. I wish the government all the best in wiretapping every phone NOT located within the United States with no warrant. More power to them. If they want to tap within the US, get a warrant.

foreign said:
Main Entry: for·eign
Pronunciation: 'for-&n, 'fär-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English forein, from Old French, from Late Latin foranus on the outside, from Latin foris outside -- more at FORUM
1 : situated outside a place or country; especially : situated outside one's own country
2 : born in, belonging to, or characteristic of some place or country other than the one under consideration
3 : of, relating to, or proceeding from some other person or material thing than the one under consideration
4 : alien in character : not connected or pertinent
5 : related to or dealing with other nations
6 : occurring in an abnormal situation in the living body and often introduced from outside
7 : not being within the jurisdiction of a political unit (as a state)

Domestic said:
Main Entry: 1do·mes·tic
Pronunciation: d&-'mes-tik
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French domestique, from Latin domesticus, from domus
1 a : living near or about human habitations b : TAME, DOMESTICATED
2 : of, relating to, or originating within a country and especially one's own country <domestic politics> <domestic wines>
3 : of or relating to the household or the family
4 : devoted to home duties and pleasures
5 : INDIGENOUS

It doesn't make it any more right that it may have happened in the past as well.
 
John HSOG said:
Ahh yes, nobody complained about it in the past so it must be okay now!

Well, obviously, if it has been happening since 1972, its not the terrible, horrible, travesty, etc. etc. violation of your personal civil rights that you think it has been.

You have obviously been unaware of it until now. Has your life really been affected in any way? No.

Bottom line, its not the big deal that everyone makes it out to be. Its legal and is being done to protect us, not to deprive us of any "rights".
 
MobBoss said:
Well, obviously, if it has been happening since 1972, its not the terrible, horrible, travesty, etc. etc. violation of your personal civil rights that you think it has been.

You have obviously been unaware of it until now. Has your life really been affected in any way? No.

Bottom line, its not the big deal that everyone makes it out to be. Its legal and is being done to protect us, not to deprive us of any "rights".

We've had cameras secretly installed in every room of your home since 1972. What are you upset about? Your life hasn't been affected in any way, right?

:rolleyes:
 
IglooDude said:
We've had cameras secretly installed in every room of your home since 1972. What are you upset about? Your life hasn't been affected in any way, right?

:rolleyes:

Fortunately your analogy has nothing to do with the reality of the situation.:D
 
Okay. On the chance that I am grossly over-reacting because I am possibly misunderstanding the issue, I have a question.

I do indeed understand that the intent is for the monitoring of international calls. What the crux of the matter is for me is where the physical act of accessing the phone lines is occuring.

I cannot imagine, if they are trying to monitor someone in the US, that they are tapping the other end overseas. That has led me to assume that the actual tap is being done here at the domestic end of the call so they can be sure to monitor any international call.

Is that or is that not correct?

If it's correct, I'll let all of my rants stand. If it is incorrect, I owe everybody a huge apology for blowing my stack improperly.
 
Does it really matter where the tap is? The location of the tap shouldn't change the morality of the tap. The tap's location is a technicality.

However, if you learned that they were only monitoring one half of the conversation (they had software to only hear the person you were speaking to), would that make a difference?
 
MobBoss said:
Fortunately your analogy has nothing to do with the reality of the situation.:D

Okay, what's the difference between the two?
 
El_Machinae said:
Does it really matter where the tap is? The location of the tap shouldn't change the morality of the tap. The tap's location is a technicality.

Not really. The location is very important for me. If they are wiretapping a phone line in Afghanistan of, for example someone they believe to be a terrorist or taliban rebel, and happen to pick up a call on there from an American to said person of interest, that's entirely different than tapping here in America.

However, if you learned that they were only monitoring one half of the conversation (they had software to only hear the person you were speaking to), would that make a difference?
No. It's the location that is key.
 
It's been going on much longer than 1972. Check Woodrow Wilson's record under the Espionage Act of 1917 and the Sedition Act of 1918 which suppressed anything (mail included) that was anti-British, pro-German, pro-communism, pro-Irish or anti-war opinions. Anyone that tried to impede the war effort went to prison.
 
Whomp said:
It's been going on much longer than 1972. Check Woodrow Wilson's record under the Espionage Act of 1917 and the Sedition Act of 1918 which suppressed anything (mail included) that was anti-British, pro-German, pro-communism, pro-Irish or anti-war opinions. Anyone that tried to impede the war effort went to prison.

Just one more reason to classify Wilson as the worst President ever.
 
VRWCAgent said:
Not really. The location is very important for me. If they are wiretapping a phone line in Afghanistan of, for example someone they believe to be a terrorist or taliban rebel, and happen to pick up a call on there from an American to said person of interest, that's entirely different than tapping here in America.

Maybe I understand. If they were tapping the phone line of an American (in America), you would be upset, but if they were tapping the phone line of an Afghani, you're okay with that?
 
El_Machinae said:
Maybe I understand. If they were tapping the phone line of an American (in America), you would be upset, but if they were tapping the phone line of an Afghani, you're okay with that?

Heh, yeah. I really don't care how many phone lines they tap overseas. Like I've said before, they may want to have a talk with our allies as it could turn into a diplomatic nightmare if it were discovered, but from a Constitutional rights issue for American citizens, it's a non-issue for me if they tap phone lines overseas.

And keep in mind, they can tap all of the Americans they want, as long as they get that critical warrant signed off on by the judiciary.
 
Whomp said:
It's been going on much longer than 1972. Check Woodrow Wilson's record under the Espionage Act of 1917 and the Sedition Act of 1918 which suppressed anything (mail included) that was anti-British, pro-German, pro-communism, pro-Irish or anti-war opinions. Anyone that tried to impede the war effort went to prison.

Well, we can deplore how awful the Japanese internment was, too, but the modern relevance is lacking. Court decisions since then have rendered such actions entirely illegal.


As for the actual topic, just because Carter and Clinton (and Ford, Reagan and Bush Sr.) claimed that they could use wiretapping powers doesn't mean they actually did. Furthermore, just because past presidents have claimed to have the power does not mean that they actually do have it. In any case, they all claimed only that they could use wiretaps in ther nations to monitor conversations between foreign citizens. While many other countries might call this a violation of their sovereignty, it isn't illegal, but Bush's wiretaps were conducted against Americans in the United States and so were completely illegal. Your argument holds no water whatsoever.
 
MobBoss

I'm in utter disagreement with you on the issue of privacy and the way our government handles suspects and especially its own citizens in the war on terror. You don't seem consider the consequences of such policies and only consider how it benefits our security. But its a contradiction to say we are defending our freedom and way of life if the defense includes changing it and chipping away at our freedoms. When it comes to each issue of privacy you often say its no big deal and it doesn't affect us personaly unless we somehow ask for it. Well add all those small issues up and you have one huge problem. Then include all the corporate violations of privacy and it gets much worse. Thats why we have to defend our privacy even when it may seem as though the small losses have no immediate consquence. And we need things like the constitution and checks and balances to defend us in the event that we can't trust certain parts of out goverment. You may trust it now but what happens when their is an administration which you don't trust and you gave it all this power and taken away the need for it to be held accountable by defending every loss to citizens privacy and freedoms?

Now the argument you made in this thread is a good one in defense of president Bush. I agree with the fact that past presidents probably did the same thing and that it prvides a strong defense for Bush's actions, at least up until the point that he got caught. But that doesn't mean I agree with the policy. I feel like this is Digital Fortress, the real life version. These violations have been going on long before he was in office, but the war on terror and the patriot act has added up to be a policy that is drastically more abusive to US citizens freedoms and protections.
 
Back
Top Bottom