The Emperor Masters' Challenge

F would really be useless if you look closely. It would be right on the edge of Turfan's border and there's no way to out culture that city anytime soon. What makes it worse is both the corn and the stone are within Turfan's 2nd ring, not 3rd. About its location, I believe if you look closely it's not right beside a river, but one tile away from it. Might as well raze it, settle F and pick a better spot south along the river or something.

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why raze it and then settle it again? just *capture* turfan. it's in a great spot!!!

Round4: 1000BC-355BC

This round, it's whip, whip and whip.

Timbuktu switched production to barracks again. Djenne put the overflow from whipping the libary into a workboat. Once the barracks is done, Timbuktu whipped the settler for 2 pop and put the overflow into a Skirmisher.

Next research, I decided, would be Mathematics. I had a feeling the AI wasn't too interested this time, for some reason, and I didn't want to delay getting Construction. I could use Maths for further tech trading.

Look at what Kublai did.



That fellow is really asking for it. You got it, man. Just hang on for a while more.

After completing the workboat, Djenne started on a granary.



Notice that while the city was still experiencing unhappiness from whipping, I put a scientist there. No reason to grow so soon anyway, so I thought why not use the time to get some GP points? When it's time, I would grow it to maximum population asap and whip again.

The settler from Timbuktu reached Site A.



First build in that city was an obelisk while it waited for a worker to finish the pasture on the sheep.

Skirmisher built, Timbuktu started on an axeman. Skirmisher went to Djenne to fortify. Warrior from Djenne went out exploring, allured by the flashy "Visit Mongolia" sign.

Mathematics was soon completed. I checked my trading options but was sadly met with an unfavourable picture.



We only had Masonry and IW as options from both of them. I was reluctant to give Maths to Kublai (who had researched Writing on his own) and Napoleon didn't want to give me both these techs. Well, what could I expect? I traded Maths for IW. But I wasn't going to trade it to Kublai for Masonry (586 beakers for 186). We'd take 4 turns to research Masonry (required for Construction) so we might as well do it on our own. We won't be helping you get catapults sooner, Kublai.

Anyway, I realised why Kublai settled Ning-hsia.



Not bad. Looks like we can capture it and keep Turfan.

Take a look at where else iron appeared.



Wow, this site is looking really good now. I think it's really worth settling early.

Once the unhappiness in Djenne ended, I grew it to max size within 2 turns and then whipped the granary for 1 pop. Because only 1 pop was sacrificed, I could assign 2 scientists while waiting for the new unhappiness to end.



Timbuktu continued producing axemen. I let it work the sheep pasture and the two gold mines while waiting for the unhappiness from whipping the settler to end. Barbs appeared to give my axemen some training.



Kumbi Saleh finally grew to size 2. I decided to apply the whip on the city immediately. Mwahaha!



Next build there was a granary, as the overflow would cause a workboat to be completed in 2 turns, several turns before the border expanded and the seafood became available.

Now, look at what Kublai did next.



I knew this was going to happen. The copper city site. But even if we were going to lose our copper (not likely anytime soon), at least we have an iron source now. Certainly, Kublai is accumulating a lot of "You are an annoying idiot" negative diplomatic modifiers from me.

Anyway, Timbuktu continued on axemen. I let it grow to size 4 asap when it could. I will only whip again when it's at max size (5). In the meantime, it gave a lot of hammers and commerce working the sheep pasture, the cow pasture and the two gold mines.

Djenne, meanwhile, experienced the whip again once it could grow to its max size (4). Barracks completed, it started on continuous axemen production, to be helped along by whipping.

My exploring warrior found out something interesting:



Capitals right next to each other? Reminds me of the ongoing thread about the worst start ever. This is really weird, and it throws any plans of capturing Karakorum early into jeopardy. I think it will probably have to be conquered along with Paris later on.

This extreme case of close borders might make it possible to bribe Napoleon into attacking Kublai when we declare war on the latter, but at the risk of Napoleon capturing the Mongolian capital. We'll have to evaluate this strategem later on in the game.

Anyway, back to Kumbi Saleh, I whipped the granary for 1 pop once the city grew to size 2. While working on a workboat next, it grew back to size 2 and I applied the whip yet again, with enough overflow to complete the second workboat within 1 turn.



This is where this round stopped. A map of our modest empire:

Map of the northern part of the continent:



The southern (French and Mongolian) part of the continent:



I think it's quite safe to assume now that there are no more neighbours on our continent.

Our powergraph is climbing as we are building more axemen, with a significant jump when the first few appeared.



Not likely that we'll ever catch up with Kublai until we've fought him. But from what I saw earlier, his military strength consisted of archers in cities, a few Keshiks and maybe a few axes. And he is in a very bad position to defend himself as his furthest cities are too far from his capital. We would probably encounter the first real resistance near Beshebalik. His power graph just climbed significantly, though, so he might have more axes or Keshiks now. Or more archers

We've finished researching Construction, another boost to war preparations, and this is the tech screen:



Strange that Napoleon is still hoarding the religious techs. Still building the Parthenon? He obviously has Philosophy, since he founded Taoism. Kublai seems to be left behind. I don't see any favourable tech trade to be done currently. Will probably trade for religious techs with Nappy when possible and trade with Kublai at least once before declaring war. So far the tech trading scene has been sadder than usual for me, even by only-two-neighbours standards.

War preparations are chugging along Should we wait for catapults to attack or declare once we have 1 or 2 more axemen/swords and reinforce with cats? And what tech should be researched next? Currency seems to be the best option to me at this point as it is one step closer to CoL, which we will need.

Would like to hear your thoughts and opinions. Hope this round wasn't too bad

Oh, by the way, I'll be out of town from tomorrow onwards for 3 days, so I won't be playing until the evening of the 4th day. I might be able to post a day or two before that, though.

Keep the comments coming, guys.

Kublai is a hero!!!

He has built you three very nice cities! Building on site A was awesome since now you get the copper site for free. Even if the iron hadn't appeared in site A, you could've easily took it with skirmishers.

Here's how I envision the game going...

Crank out a ton of axes, swords, and catas.

Capture all of Kublai's cities (razing any that suck [haven't seen any so far]) except his capital. Sue for peace. Once you are ready to launch your war on Napoleon (probably around the time you get optics [which I would say is important since Nappy won't love you forever]), sack both capitals in quick succession. From there you should be able to easily steam-roll Nappy, giving you the continent to yourself.

From there, I would suggest cranking up the infrastructure and going for a space victory since inter-continental warfare with mansa probably isn't your best bet. Instead, I would use your future tech advantage to cause world wars while you pursue the space victory.

aelf said:

We only had Masonry and IW as options from both of them. I was reluctant to give Maths to Kublai (who had researched Writing on his own) and Napoleon didn't want to give me both these techs. Well, what could I expect? I traded Maths for IW. But I wasn't going to trade it to Kublai for Masonry (586 beakers for 186). We'd take 4 turns to research Masonry (required for Construction) so we might as well do it on our own. We won't be helping you get catapults sooner, Kublai.

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You're far too obsessed with getting a "good deal" on techs IMO and should generally take what you can get. That 586 for 186 beaker trade will benefit you more in the long run. One can only hope you don't lose out on getting to Liberalism or some other similar tech by 4 turns.

he can always trade it right before he goes to war with kublai (as he already mentioned) assuming kublai doesn't research math in the meantime (all the more reason to go to war soon imo). i agree that giving him math before you're gonna pounce on him isn't a very good idea, especially for only masonry in return.

not to mention that i don't think you'll need catas to take out kublai. a mixture of axes, swords, and the odd spear should do it.

Great turnset! I like the way things are going now.

A couple of things I would change going into the next turnset...

• I'm afraid you're going to find yourself short on spearmen in the coming war. Against Khan, each spearman will probably kill at least 3 times his cost in keshiks. I would ramp up spear production (along with catapults), aiming to have at least three before going to war.
• I know what you're thinking with Currency; it's going to be a very useful tech. However, I think Metal Casting may be the better bet right now. Forges are very nice, especially when you're whipping. It's a bit of a toss up, and you'd want to trade metal casting for currency when you could.
• I would change production in Kumbi Saleh to a catapult. They're not going to need the extra food from the fish for a while. I probably would have sent the first workboat to the fish, but I understand the reasoning in sending it to the clams.
• Not sure about the mine near Djenne. I think there's more to be gained from chopping some of the nearby forests instead.

So, for the war, it'd be nice to have at least 4 catapults and 3 spears before starting. I'd finish the axe and sword that are already in the queues and then get started on the cats and spears. (You were probably going to do that anyway.) Taking out Ning-hsia ASAP is important, as it looks to be his only source of metal at the moment. If you can deprive him of axemen, your own swords become very powerful units.

Longterm, I'm of a similar mind to futurehermit. Also, there's zero chance of getting Khan and Napoleon to war against one another. Despite the border tension, they love each other. I'm not sure what the best troops to use against Napoleon will be. Getting to Macemen by then would be nice, but I think it might be a bit of a stretch. You might be able to take him down with swords, axes, and plenty of catapults, but that depends upon a fairly quick romp through Khan's lands. It all depends on how fast Napoleon gets to Feudalism. Once he's there, you're forced to tech.

Again, though, nice turnset!

i'm curious...how is it that we can build catas when we don't have masonry (prereq for construction)...?

i don't think catas are necessary anyways. swords, axes, and spears should be sufficient. wait til catas and you've waited too long imho.

futurehermit said:

i'm curious...how is it that we can build catas when we don't have masonry (prereq for construction)...?

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I believe aelf researched masonry before construction, as anyone would have to...

futurehermit said:

i don't think catas are necessary anyways. swords, axes, and spears should be sufficient. wait til catas and you've waited too long imho.

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Against a creative civ at this stage of the game, I disagree. We'll likely be running into several cities with 40% defense. Cats will be crucial to keep attrition low. Besides, with a little bit of whipping and chopping, 3-4 cats can be had in just a dozen or so turns, I think.

aelf said:

However, I am good enough now to be winning Emperor regularly, so I don't think my skills are so lacking as to warrant people unsubscribing. It seems rather petty to do so. But you are free to do so if you really wish to. Everyone has the right to come and go.

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As a Prince/Beginning Monarch player, watching this Emperor game with all of the advice of the group is very interesting. Keep it up as long as you are having fun, don't worry if everyone doesn't like it.

aelf said:

Kublai is accumulating a lot of "You are an annoying idiot" negative diplomatic modifiers from me.

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I know the AI is programmed to expand in this way, but you'd think it could also be programmed to realize when it's being provocative. The opposite is certainly true--when I hem in an AI civ, I'm practically guaranteed a war.

Anyway, that's my point, an obvious one, with which we all seem to be in agreement. You have no room to expand. You have no choice but to thump Kublai, thump him hard, and keep thumping him until he's no longer a factor or even gone. I vote for the latter, even if you have to let Napoleon take the Mongol capital. You can always take it for yourself later.

On another note, with war imminent, Alphabet may not have been such a bad choice. I recently discovered, much to my chagrin, that an AI civ will only tech trade if it has contact with at least 2 other civs. So once you wipe out Kublai, Napoleon will offer you nothing in tech trades--except, perhaps, as appeasement in return for a peace treaty. Hint hint.

As for how to execute the war (and Kublai, heh heh), you'll want to carefully evaluate and, if they're reasonably worthwhile, keep several of those cities he's built for you, since you have so few yourself. You need to be able to produce as many units as possible until the war is done.

One major concern I have for you is your neglect of Spearmen thus far. Kublai has Horseback Riding and a source of horses, so you can expect to see Keshiks. Kublai will likely pump them out for all he's worth once hostilities commence. You'll need at least one Spear in your stack (I like to give them Combat I and Medic I), and you should have at least one in each city, including the ones you take and keep. The Keshiks aren't much of a city-taking threat, but they're ruthless and effective pillagers, so you need their counter to effectively deal with them or risk losing your sources of food, income, and metals. None of which would be good, since you have so few at the moment. If unopposed, Keshiks could easily surge up to Kumbi Saleh, pillage that iron mine (and before that, the copper mine as well), and really ruin your day. In fact, you should plunk down an Axe and/or Spear on your metals once the war starts.

You should also get your Workers (of which I think you have too few) building roads around your cities before hostilities commence. Roads enable the Spears to strike at the Keshiks as soon as they're in view, and before they do too much damage. Given the AI's predilection for pillaging, I've often built "mousetrap" improvements like non-worked cottages on open terrain on the edge the fat cross. The AI's pillagers will often attack these tiles, and if you have a road to them, it makes the pillagers easy pickings.

Good job so far, both in the game and in your posts. I'm looking forward to the next round!

I believe aelf researched masonry before construction, as anyone would have to...

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guess i missed that. i read all the stuff about tech trading for masonry and then all of a sudden there was construction. my bad.

Against a creative civ at this stage of the game, I disagree. We'll likely be running into several cities with 40% defense. Cats will be crucial to keep attrition low. Besides, with a little bit of whipping and chopping, 3-4 cats can be had in just a dozen or so turns, I think.

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since we have construction, sure do some catas. i'm usually attacking long before construction so i'm not used to the first assault involving catas. i guess i underestimated how far into the game we are already.

after construction, i like to beeline for maces. i would bet that nappy and kublai (if you're not on him asap) will have longbows before not too much longer.

Yeah, I'll enjoy capturing Kublai's cities.

I've just speed read all the comments so far. Glad you guys like this turnset. I realised I forgot to mention spears when I was going to bed last night. Thought of building about 3 to go along with the invasion force. How many cat do you think we need before invading?

Gotta run now. Sorry I won't be able to play for the next few days. Will be back to the game on Wednesday.

aelf said:

Yeah, I'll enjoy capturing Kublai's cities.

I've just speed read all the comments so far. Glad you guys like this turnset. I realised I forgot to mention spears when I was going to bed last night. Thought of building about 3 to go along with the invasion force. How many cat do you think we need before invading?

Gotta run now. Sorry I won't be able to play for the next few days. Will be back to the game on Wednesday.

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I usually find that about three to four Cats per city is enough to ensure that I don't lose a melee unit. Depending on the number and type of defenders, of course. But most non-core AI cities will be lightly defended, so once the cultural defense is removed, you shouldn't have too many problems with those cities Kublai has placed so close to you.

I'd recommend taking Ning-hsia first, then Turfan. Go after Old Serai with some of your reinforcements to let them get some XPs, then continue south.

If you face a city defended by something like 3 Archers and 3 Keshiks, neither Axes nor Spears are good enough. You're going to need plenty of cats. Build some 6 or 8 of them before going to war, and just enough Axes and Spears to protect them.

Hey I checked your save looks like Nopoleon research Philo via Codes of law and probably founded both religions before the AD periods (probably researched Philo with either a GP or GS)... ning-hsia has Confusism in the city (730 BC).

Khan doesn't have any Religious techs so obviously it has to be Napoleon

BTW why did you Promote all your Axemen with City Raider already??? I usually keep them unpromoted just incase of a counter attack when I march to their ciities so I can get them healed up with promotions when I attack.

I wonder why khan is expanding so quickly and So far away from his capital, he's not organized and that maintanace cost must be killing him, he doesn't even have codes of laws yet. lol

Oh yea get a worker to build a road to "Old Sarai" so you can swiftly capture that city on the same turn you declare war on him, that city is right next to your cultural boarders.

Andrei_V said:

If you face a city defended by something like 3 Archers and 3 Keshiks, neither Axes nor Spears are good enough. You're going to need plenty of cats. Build some 6 or 8 of them before going to war, and just enough Axes and Spears to protect them.

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7 cats to strip cultural defense is generally good, but really - Keshik's don't get defensive bonuses. Throw a bunch of City Raider Axes and Swords at them - you will lose 3-4, maybe, but that's no big deal. Faster conquest is actually worth those losses, IMO.

Zherak_Khan said:

7 cats to strip cultural defense is generally good, but really - Keshik's don't get defensive bonuses. Throw a bunch of City Raider Axes and Swords at them - you will lose 3-4, maybe, but that's no big deal. Faster conquest is actually worth those losses, IMO.

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From my experienvce, Keshiks are tough to kill with Axes and even Swords, probably because they have a First Strike. Each one can kill 2-3 Axes in a row even after you strip the cultural defenses. The City Raider Promotion is useless against them, you need Combat, and as much Collateral prior to attack as possible. Without enough suicidal cats expect huge losses.

Aren't Keshiks like 6Str 1FStrike and +50% (100%?) vs Catapults?