ALC Game #10: India/Asoka

Yeah, snag the horses first. No one's near the copper, so it's basically just sitting there, waiting for you.

As for Ragnar....he's slow to warm-up, but he's generally a good friend if you can manage it(which isn't easy.) He's pretty frisky though. I wouldn't be surprise d if he and Toku don't play nice...
 
Ok...I'm not sure what y'all been smokin' :smoke:, but it makes rather little sense to have a dotmap location where you settle on the stone.

Try 1E of the Stone. (this appeared in an earlier dotmap, but has been ignored) There's an inlet from the sea, so you don't lose sea-access, and you can still work both the Wheat and the Gold.

The move costs you this: 3 Ocean, and 2 coast (one of which can be used by site 5). What do you gain? 1 Quarry, 1 grassland, 4 plains (3 of which overlap with Delhi).

So basicly, you're trading 3 crap tiles and 2 mediocre ones for a Quarry and 2 cottageable land tiles (as well as a few cottage-stewarding opportunities for the capitol). Ocean tiles are frankly not worth the population required to work them, and land-tiles are almost inherently better than sea. I can see no reason to favor settling on the stone over the site 1E of it.
 
Hans Lemurson said:
Ok...I'm not sure what y'all been smokin' :smoke:, but it makes rather little sense to have a dotmap location where you settle on the stone.

Try 1E of the Stone. (this appeared in an earlier dotmap, but has been ignored) There's an inlet from the sea, so you don't lose sea-access, and you can still work both the Wheat and the Gold.
You can't settle there.. it is just 2 tile distance from the capital.
 
Lance of Llanwy said:
Yeah, snag the horses first. No one's near the copper, so it's basically just sitting there, waiting for you.

As for Ragnar....he's slow to warm-up, but he's generally a good friend if you can manage it(which isn't easy.) He's pretty frisky though. I wouldn't be surprise d if he and Toku don't play nice...

Kool I really Do hope they end up becoming enemies... Like to see the AI UU's go head to head, The Viking Berserker vs the Japanses Samurai
 
Lance of Llanwy said:
As for Ragnar....he's slow to warm-up, but he's generally a good friend if you can manage it(which isn't easy.) He's pretty frisky though. I wouldn't be surprise d if he and Toku don't play nice...

Ah, right. I have played against him.

I would describe him as a saner version of Tokugawa. He has a similar standoffish, isolationist personality, but he's less extreme with it so it actually works out well for him sometimes. And, yes, I have found him to be a very good ally.
 
Here... have a toke, Hans. :lol: (It was my dotmap.)
 
I agree with the majority who urge the horse city first. It is a difficult choice whether to settle the yellow or blue horse site first. Yellow blocks Mehmed better, but he may then settle blue and yellow is further from your capital than blue. Still with fast workers you should be able to build roads to yellow city very quickly.

Do not settle on stone. It will soon be within your capital's borders. I recommend you settle one tile East of the copper as your third city. This will give you copper quickly, sea access, and the other nearby resources. When you later put a city northwest of your capital it can capture the gold and other resources there.

If you fog bust on the NW pennisula then barbs can only approach from the south or east. The yellow city and Mehmed should keep there numbers low from the E and a few chariots or elephants will police your southern border with the jungle.

You may need to build another worker after your third settler so you can build roads and mine the copper quickly.

In short I think you are off to a great start. Catapults will not be needed for a while. You should be able to take Mehmed without them.

I love playing Ragnar in Warlords [fin/agg]. As an AI, he is not as warlike and isolated as the Japanese, but is therefore a more serious threat. You will want to play Togu and Ragnar off against each other if possible. Pray that they have different religions [or help that happen if you can].

I have never been a great fan of the Oracle slingshot. I would be tempted to just prepare units and go to war on this map.
 
Just one thing to remember: since we have movement on a grid you can easily go to site 2 with the settler before moving it toward yellow city. If you see a green border there, stop and found on two and start building a monument. Unfortunately going that way you're more at risk of running into a panther, and that would be pretty bad, wouldn't it? But maybe the Japanese Archer will help you by discovering some of those tiles.

Anyway, I say go for it. You'll be cutting it pretty close since Mehmed's sure to want that site too, but I wouldn't worry about an outright attack against it if you get to the site first.

And yeah, with possible early Axes, Spears and Chariots I don't really see why an Oracle slingshot would be more desirable. Think of it like this: if you get to yellow first, you'll delay Mehmed's second city, and he won't have either horses or copper! What easier target could you get?
 
get horses first because you probably wont be able to get it late, and then send out a settler to the copper city. you probably wont lose the copper if you settle it second because,in my games, the AI doesnt settle half way across the world anymore.

As for Ragnar, if you can get him friendly, you will have yourself an ally. but if you make him mad he will hate your guts(kinda like Izzy, but you can make him happy other than just switching religions) Also, if he is in a war with you he WILL attack the enemy, wicth makes him a really good ally to have
 
flamingzaroc121 said:
Also, if he is in a war with you he WILL attack the enemy, wicth makes him a really good ally to have

Hmm... I prefer an ally that just absorbs damage :devil:

Ragnar and Mehmed are alright. They're not extreme, and how they perform differ from game to game in my experience.
 
So it sounds like the consensus is for the following:

  1. Send the Settler east, towards the horses/clams/wine/cow city (1W of the wine).
  2. If I see Mehmed's borders there, turn back to site 2 (2W/1S of horses).
  3. First build in 2nd city: Monument.
  4. Meanwhile, the capital builds another Settler (only 11 turns needed!). This settler goes to found copper city (1E of copper). I'll keep my CI Warrior near the site to ensure no barb city snags it before me.
Once the 2nd Settler is finished, I think the capital should work on another Fast Worker until one or both strategic resources are hooked up. Maybe more than one; the pigs and farmed flood plains will make the FWs appear quickly. Then it's units, units, units. One of the Warriors will eventually be sent to that peninsula to fog-bust.

Screw the wonders. If Ragnar wants to build 'em, let him. We'll just take them from him later on. :mwaha:

I have to add that while Clammy Horse is a great city site, I think it would be better later on--it will be difficult to reach, afford, and defend at first. I'm kind of hoping Mehmed gets there before me. Horse Hill, with its river connecting to the capital, has a much better chance of having Buddhism spread there on its own, making that crucial 1st border pop more likely.

I think with those 3 cities and 2 crucial resources in place, we should stop expanding and prep for defense from barbs and our first war.
 
Sisiutil said:
So it sounds like the consensus is for the following:

  1. Send the Settler east, towards the horses/clams/wine/cow city (1W of the wine).
  2. If I see Mehmed's borders there, turn back to site 2 (2W/1S of horses).

That does seem to be what most people are recommending, but I think your concerns about distance are well founded.

I have to add that while Clammy Horse is a great city site, I think it would be better later on--it will be difficult to reach, afford, and defend at first. I'm kind of hoping Mehmed gets there before me. Horse Hill, with its river connecting to the capital, has a much better chance of having Buddhism spread there on its own, making that crucial 1st border pop more likely.

I think you need to use your own judgment, since you're getting conflicting advice, but IMHO "Horse Hill" is the better city for now. "Clammy Horse" can be founded later. Clammy Horse will be a better production city, which is a factor in its favor, but Horse Hill is an excellent site. It's not like you're founding in some lousy desert area.
 
But see, settling "Clammy Horse" will make Mehmed reconsider his placement. He most probably won't go to "Horse Hill" instead to compete, but go south. You have him boxed in and all the time in the world to put another city in between once you wipe out his sorry excuse of an army.

Sisiutil, you're right about needing workers, but don't forget barb defense. Chop some forests if you have to (to speed up worker production) and connect the two cities to build some chariots. You might even consider chopping one (two?) forest for the second settler for example. I really like the start of this game and the city placement discussion. I'm usually not that good at placing my second & third cities, maybe because I don't take enough time to think about it, but I'm slowly learning from this games.
 
Round 4: to 1200 BC

Okay, so, I chickened out regarding Clammy Horse. I was just getting more nervous about barbs and wanted a better unit than Warriors ASAP. So the Settler went east and founded Horse Hill... er, Bombay:

ALC10_1200BC_01.jpg


Its first build was a monument to speed up that border pop:

ALC10_1200BC_02.jpg


Meanwhile, I still had one Warrior exploring down south. I decided to bring him home for defense and/or fog busting; a faster unit--a Scout or Chariot--will finish exploring the south later. First, though, I decided to do have him do a quick sweep through those tiles in the southwest that the map I received before didn't reveal. Good thing, too:

ALC10_1200BC_03.jpg


I really didn't expect to luck out and find another goody hut this late!

ALC10_1200BC_04.jpg


Hey, better than a kick in the teeth. The gold will finance research at 100% just a little while longer.

Shortly after that, my 2nd Settler finished and headed near the same area:

ALC10_1200BC_05.jpg


I didn't chop rush the Settler, the pigs and farmed flood plains were doing fine in that regard. I decided to save the forests for the Oracle. With all those flood plains, I want to keep some forests around if I can. Madras' first build was a Fast Worker so I could get the copper going ASAP. My other FW was busy building a road to the horses, and since Buddhism did not spread to Bombay on its own in time, he rushed back to chop forests for the Oracle in Delhi.

I kept Bombay busy building units--Warriors, specifically, the only ones available until the horses come on-line. The last thing I wanted was for the barbs to start appearing and raiding my new, empty cities. I also sent a Warrior to the northwest peninsula to fog-bust; I also didn't want barbs, let alone a barb city, appearing up there in my back yard. Look at what was hiding in the fog up nearby:

ALC10_1200BC_06.jpg


I think the city site up there just shifted to that forested plains hill. It will have a lot of ocean tiles (7, not counting the fish), but fish and clams are just too good to pass up. It will also get the cows, and the wine will be available with the city's 2nd border pop--or earlier, as I think Delhi's borders may claim that tile. That's fine by me; wine is a great happy resource but a so-so tile for a citizen to work. The northwest fishing village will be on a plains hill (+1 hammer) and have another plains hill for production. Not bad for a fishing village, which I also think is now a slightly higher priority.

I also completed several techs: Hunting, Priesthood, Pottery, Writing, and Masonry. Normally I don't research Masonry this early, but with the changes in the patch, a CS slingshot from a Great Prophet has become more unlikely. At any rate, with Writing in hand, I went to talk to the neighbours:

ALC10_1200BC_07.jpg


ALC10_1200BC_08.jpg


ALC10_1200BC_09.jpg


WHAT?!?!?! Tokugawa won't consider an Open Borders agreement?!?! I'm shocked--nay, speechless!!! That's so unlike him.

Hey, look, Buddhism spread to Bombay! After the Monument popped its borders. Nice, but kind of late:

ALC10_1200BC_10.jpg


Good thing I built the monument.

Thanks to two chops, my first and thus-far only wonder completed:

ALC10_1200BC_11.jpg


As I mentioned before, I chose Metal Casting as the free tech. I probably won't build courthouses for some time, nor switch to Caste System ever, and I already have a religion, so Code of Laws lost a lot of its usual appeal, even though I'm Organized. Then again, if the courthouses are cheap, that's all the more reason to delay them--until the cities have the production (and maybe Organized Religion and a forge) to build them even faster.

And yes, that is a Barbarian Warrior making a bee-line for Bombay. He arrived next to it on the same turn that my first Chariot completed. Serendipity. The results were predictable:

ALC10_1200BC_12.jpg


So that Chariot has earned 3 XPs in that battle and will be promoted on the next turn to Combat I.

Speaking of the barbarians, it looks like they were nice enough to found my science city for me!

ALC10_1200BC_13.jpg


That was nice of them. My only concern is that Ragnar or Tokugawa will capture it before me. I think that may therefore be the first city I capture with my troops, before I even take on Mehmed.

So the Oracle was built, horses hooked up, my first mounted unit completed and battle-tested, and the copper is nearly hooked up outside of Madras.

Here's a look at the flying camera map for clarity, especially of the gridlines:

ALC10_1200BC_14.jpg


And here's one with flying camera off, for better information about the resources down south:

ALC10_1200BC_15.jpg


Now: what next?

It looks like the big decision this time around is expansion--or, more to the point, how to accomplish it: peacefully, with Settlers, or via axe and hoof? It looks like Mehmed still hasn't claimed Clammy Horse, but that can't be too far off. I suspect he must have expanded southwards first. Even without it, we still have two other cities we could found: Bedrock (on the stone) and Surf 'n' Turf up north.

Now would be a perfect time to decide on this because Delhi's and Bombay's current builds (both Chariots) finish on the next turn. (FYI, I just whipped in each city recently, so that's not an option until the population recovers and the unhappiness wears off.) I say we either build Settlers next or barracks, depending upon the course chosen.

My own inclination--surprise surprise--is to go the military route. Let Mehmed found Clammy Horse for us. Build barracks, then units, and send them to claim Purple Rice from the barbs, then have them turn NE towards Mehmed's cities. You'll notice I'm working on Alphabet--I'd like to have Purple Rice in my possession, containing a library, by the time I discover Literature; around the same time I want to take the marble from Mehmed to help with the Great Library.

However, as always, i bow humbly before the wisdom of the group mind, so say your piece!
 
A few quick comments ...

Sisiutil said:
Okay, so, I chickened out regarding Clammy Horse.

Yay. :goodjob:

Hey, look, Buddhism spread to Bombay! After the Monument popped its borders. Nice, but kind of late:

That's good. The extra point of culture per turn will help make sure Mehmed can't capture the horses if he settles by the clams. If you had started waffling about building a monument, I was going to suggest that you really want both monument and religion in that city. The monument wouldn't have been a waste even if religion spread on the first turn.

However, as always, i bow humbly before the wisdom of the group mind, so say your piece!

Go the military route. :hammer: Maybe barbarian dye city first, but this peaceful expansion thing you keep talking about is overrated.
 
Gyathaar said:
You can't settle there.. it is just 2 tile distance from the capital.

Hmm...now that you mention it, it was I who was most likely :smoke:.
:mischief:

As for your plan Sisiutil, it sounds pretty solid to me. Conquering the barbs can give your units some extra experience and promotions which will be useful for taking on Mehmed. Barbs are like training-dummies.

You can probably hold off settling on the stone, since you'll be getting it in your borders anyways when Delhi hits 500:culture:, which being a Holy-city, Capitol, and Oracular, shouldn't be too far off.
 
yeah go after those barbs, and make an awesome science city, but also go semi peaceful, by filling in you backyard ie Bedrock. another note, try to spread your religion so you can get the bonuses of culture and civics
 
i would say take out your neighbor over there, but i'm not sure how much that city would cost you without a courthouse. your backyard seems a low priority atm, but could be a pretty good fishing city. hit the barb city as soon as it jumps to 2 pop, then hit Mehmed while founding on the stone, then expand aggressively south. getting a science city going this early will be nice. but you could always found the backyard and run some specialists...</hedge bet>
 
Hmmm...good round, as always! Can't argue with your current direction...just work towards Construction in case you run into any unfortunate surprises against Mehmed. But yeah....settling up north wouldn't be bad. Seems like a nice place to build Caravels later on....
 
I'm not the best Player(Or even that good), But I think you should settle the Clam/Fish/Cows soon. They will Provide +3 Health(Which will help Compensate for the Forests) and it gives you a Slightly better look at what's above those Waters, Another contenint(God, My spelling is off) Perhaps?
 
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