CBob04 Achtung Panzer!

TheOverseer714 said:

We need one more town to build the FP, so where is a good spot? Both for the town and the FP.

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Could we take a city from the Mongols, start our FP and then raze that city?

From what I remember of the map the next current open area is towards Mongols/Vikings, out past Cologne.

Lurker:

Yes the SGL prevents another MGL. The check is made to see if a leader is available. If it is, then you cannot generate another leader. That is the vanilla code. They added the SGL, but when it comes time to generate an SGL there is no check, so you can get another SGL.

FYI, the AI can build great wonders with MGL, even though humans cannot. This is due to the GUI interface used by humans. That is where they check to see if it is an MGL or not.

The AI does not use that interface, so no check is made.

I'd hate to forgo having armies during a war, so I will use the SGL on the Pyramids. The FP should be on a river with extra gold, so Hamburg might be best. I'll run it through Civ Assist 2 to vet it out. Settling northwest of Cologne gets us closer to the Incense, so thats an idea. Also, capturing a Mongol town so we can build the FP might work, I might try that. Should make the game more interesting.

As vxma points out, we can get another SGL while this one is still around (in fact I have had some games (C3C) in which I had more than 1 SGL). But I do not see a strong case why that in itself is an argument for not using this one, given that I do not see a must-have wonder (besides maybe the FP). Pyramids is good and addresses a need of our empire.

Edit: crosspost. I agree with Overseer.

I finished my turns last night, but didn't have time to post the results. I am now going to remedy that. I did not start the revolt, but I think we are about ready. We are medieval now, but our free tech was Monotheism I have destroyed Almarikh, and once healed, I think Dalandzadgad should be next. I also settled Stuttgart NW of Cologne, and have the FP being built in Frankfurt. Here is the turnlog:



The save:

Looking good. We need to agree on 2 timing issues, and 1 strategy issue:

1. When to the revolt.
2. When to start the war with Iroquois.
3. Determine our engagement in the Mongol campaign.

About point 3, my idea was to engage to an extent that the Vikings and Mongols are in balance, and then disengage. "Divide but not conquer".

I can look at the save tomorrow.

Good turns, Overseer!

Revolting and War
On revolting and warring, uh, I may be a bit confused. Since we renegoiated peace with Iroquois as part of the MA on Mongolia, I thought that once that expired, if we did not make peace with Iroquois, we would be at war with them.

I think that deal expires in 5 turns or so.

Do we have enough units to wage a two front war?

If we can wage a two front war I think we should, while Iroquois units are walking to Mongolia.

In general, since our cities are now capable of supporting more than one unit per turn, I'm ready to revolt at any time. I would like to get that over with before we wage war on Iroqouis. The big unknown is how much time we would spend in Anarchy, since that impacts how well we can replace any losses.

Mongol Strategy
Rough 'em up now; we'll kill'em later.

I think we are ready to revolt, we don't want to have any starvation and if our cities get any bigger, that could happen during the revolt. How long the anarchy lasts will be luck based, so that's essentially unpredictable. The guesstimate would be around 5 turns, since we aren't a huge country yet. Next, the war(s): There are 6 swords and 4 catapults in the north, though some are injured. That group should be able to raze several more Mongol cities without reinforcements. When the Iroquois war begins, we may have to play defense for awhile until anarchy ends. Then we focus on our goals for that war, which is grab the Ivory and get the SoZ built or take it from them. Meanwhile burn 3-4 Mongol cities to weaken them, then we can make peace with them and be done with that for awhile. Looks like some busy turns. Hopefully, ThinkTanks new computer will be ready for this turnset soon. If it has Vista, I think CBob can advise and help if necessary, as I know very little about that operating system.

TheOverseer714 said:

Next, the war(s): There are 6 swords and 4 catapults in the north, though some are injured. That group should be able to raze several more Mongol cities without reinforcements.

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We have 15 Swords total; 6 and 9 is a good split. Once we revolt, we don't need any MPs (everyone is fussy anyway), so we can send troops southward on the turn we revolt.

If it has Vista, I think CBob can advise and help if necessary, as I know very little about that operating system.

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"Vista. Why did it have to be Vista?" (good place for Indiana Jones smiley)

TheOverseer714 said:

Hopefully, ThinkTanks new computer will be ready for this turnset soon. If it has Vista, I think CBob can advise and help if necessary, as I know very little about that operating system.

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No worries, it has Vista, but Civ installed without any problems. I'll look at the save tomorrow.

I played. Highlights: we are a republic (5 turns of anarchy) and are at war with the Iroquois.

Turnlog:

CBob04, 150BC - 50AD

Pre-turn
Do a city round and change some builds to complete in 2, which looks like a good time to revolt.

IBT
2 Iroquois warriors die near Dalandzagad.
Konigsberg: duct -> cat.
Nuremburg: galley -> worker.


1: 130BC
Graf Spee spots a coast in the NW.
We kill a Mongol sword. (1-0)
Join our Mongols force to 1 stack while healing.

IBT
Mongol archer dies but a Mongol sword kills one of ours. (2-1)

Leipzig: sword-> market
Hamburg: worker -> market
Munich: worker -> duct
Cologne: sword -> market
Hannover: lib -> worker.
Graf Spee sinks.

2: 110BC

We revolt, get 5 turns of anarchy. MM all cities for max food and happiness.

IBT
In the N an Iro archer is killed by the Mongols.
Salamanca completes ToA. Here comes the cascade:
Mongols start on GLib and GW and complete the GLib in Karakorum.
Babylon completes GLight.

3: 90BC
Not much, Mongol task force still healing.

IBT - ZZZ

4: 70BC - ZZZ

IBT
Mongols found Tsetserleg (2SE of Dalandzagad), which is only 1 tile for our healing stack.

5: 50BC
Move our now healed stack to Tsetserleg.

IBT
Iroquois want to renegotiate peace. If we disagree we basically declare, but if we agree we cannot declare for another 20 turns.
So I decline and we are at war with the Iroquois. Hope this was wise.

6: 30 BC
3 Iro archers come back from the N towards Stuttgart.
Our Mongols task force destroys Tsetserleg killing one Mongol spear. (3-1)
I shuffle some units to address various loose Iro units that are close to our borders.

IBT:
Iro archers near Stuttgart mover farther S instead of towards the town.
We become a republic.

7: 10 BC
Move stack next to Dalandzagad).
MM all cities to account for the end of the revolution. change some builds to military, but also in Berlin change the MoM build to market in 1. We do not need the MoM and may
loose the shields to further cascades. after the MM round we do 0gpt at 5/4/1 getting Feudalism in 7. Change this to 1/8/1 and we get feud in 4 at -56gpt but we have 536 in the treasury. Having MDIs soon now we have 2 wars would be nice.


IBT
Iro units move, no attacks.

8: 10AD

At Dalandzagad, cats go 3 of 4, there are 2 defenders. We kill both but loose 1 sword doing so. (4-2) We get 2 Mongol workers, and raze the city.
At Stuttgart we kill a reg Iro archer. (5-2)

IBT
Egypt completes GW.
Arabia completes MoM.
Babylon completes Colossus.

9: 30AD
Near ruins of Dalandzagad we kill a Mongol sword (6-2).
Kill Iro archer near Much Chunk. (7-2)

IBT
Both the Mongols and the Ire’s kill a loose sword of ours. (7-4)

10: 50AD
We kill 2 Iro archers near Hannover and 2 near Cologne. (11-4)
Our Mongols task force has been reduced and now contains 4 cats and only 3 swords, start moving this home. We mat consider peace with the Mongols but I leave that to the team/next turn set.
Graf Spee der Zweite lands on a sore in the Eastern Ocean and we meet Arabia (we have only monotheism on them) and Babylonia (they need currency and republic). They have nothing of value to offer us.



Notes for the team/next player: I think we want to make peace with the Mongols now and put a coordinated effort in destroying the Iroquois. Our units are scattered a bit due to the fact that I had to address Iro units at various places. We have feudalism in 1, then we may consider getting the lux slider from 10% to 20% since we have a fair number of specialists now.


The Save.

I think we have weakened them some, probably enough for a medium term peace treaty. My worry is that they have the only horses besides the Vikings, and for a long time, horse units make the best attackers. If we manage to grab or build the SoZ, we'll at least have ancient cavalry. Eventually, we will have to war with them some more, but for now, focus on the Iroquois.

Mongols declared on us and killed two workers. We destroyed one of their cities. We came out ahead. Job done.

Making peace with Mongols give us 20 turns of focused warfare on Iroquois. It is a good deal.

CommandoBob said:

Mongols declared on us and killed two workers. We destroyed one of their cities. We came out ahead. Job done.

Making peace with Mongols give us 20 turns of focused warfare on Iroquois. It is a good deal.

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Actually we destroyed three of their cities, Overseer destroyed Almarikh, and I destroyed Dalandzadgad and Tsetserleg (this city in fact only existed for 3 turns).

I agree to making peace with the Mongols. Don't forget to cancel the alliance with the Vikings first then.

Warning: lurker's comments and opinions follow:

TheOverseer mentioned this game when I mentioned a similar sort of variant in another place. I want to make some comments... please forgive me if I speak out-of-place and I will delete or edit this if anyone desires. To speak honestly, I felt like screaming at some of the general strategy ideas throughout here (you might all micromanage better than me... I don't know). I might just have a good tip or two for this game still. First, the mild stuff...

First off, I think it would work out easier to play pangea with this sort of variant (what level of aggression here?). After all, you want to use all those panzers and having to transport some by ship slows the game down. For an American version of this variant I'd choose archipelago, since bombing overseas makes more sense to me than over land. Also, I think the barbarian level would tend to come as a difficulty rather than an advantage for this sort of game, since have veteran or elite units won't help out panzers. When I first saw 12 cities I thought that too little... but then thinking back to drakan's "deity-bulider" article http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=122419 and my own experiences I thought "no just about right." Looking at a recent emperor-game I played with the Byzantines I tend to think that you might have done this successfully with 10 cities and no wars until the blitz era... but not quite with the strategy you guys have used. Remember, 5CC players have found out that most production and commerce comes from 5 cities. More cities implies more corruption for everybody but the capital, so 10 vs. 12 doesn't seem like too much of a jump... at least in terms of commerce.

I seriously think that razing cities involves real wars... so in my lurker opinion you guys have (or will soon do so) violated the variant restriction. However, maybe I just didn't get the variant idea. I also wouldn't have started wars myself (but happy watched AIs fight each other) in this sort of game, since building warmaking units prior to the blitz era of the panzers would slow my civ down in terms of technology, gold, or most likely both. All this I consider rather mild so far...

The whole game... so far as I see it... pivots on getting to the "blitz era" *as far ahead of the AIs as possible*. Not necessary as fast as possible, but as far ahead of the AIs as possible. When I saw the Literature slingshot I saw hope for this game. When I saw no build for the Great Library, I felt saddened. When I saw a SGL hope came back. But, when I saw the Pyramids built instead of the Great Library, I really felt like screaming. Maybe you guys can still build it, I don't know... but it seems late to me. Let me explain...

I know you guys discussed a golden age trigger earlier. Perhaps getting faster panzers might work out as the better golden age, but overall I'd prefer the following strategy...

1. Don't trade for or trade around much ancient tech. You build the Great Library and let it all flow in. Don't worry about not having iron. You might get it in some unexpected place, or you might have to trade for it. You won't need it until you want to build factories... so... no rush. Slow the AI down as much as possible. I'd *wait* for republic from the GLB and then revolt immediately.

2. As Drakan's article suggested, you *would have* (I know... too late now) turned research completely off and stock up on cash. Some cash you use to trade for all the luxuries. A little less cash gets used to found embassies with everyone and a little less cash you'd use to sign Rights of Passage with everyone. The Rights of Passage in my experience keep almost all civs at bay... though I will say that the Mongols and Vikings as neighbors don't look so great... it may still have worked. Don't worry about slowing the tech pace down. It doesn't matter if you get to motorized transportation 2 or 6 or 20 turns later than possible IF this implies that you have a bigger tech lead when you do get to motorized transportation.

3. Since you have taxes to the max during the Great Library period you accordingly build marketplaces (maybe with skillful forrest chops even).

4. You would have foregone libraries until the very end of the Great Library period. Instead pre-build cathedrals with temples. When you build cathedrals later, and supposing you have as many luxuries as possible traded for and hooked up, building a cathedral will, often enough if not usually, result in a "we love the leader day", further reducing corruption. Especially if you guys built the Sistene Chapel and/or J.S. Bach's. You may have also built courthouses... judiciously of course.

5. Right before or at the time you get theology, you start building libraries everywhere you can... even if you don't have a marketplace or temple in a city. Perhaps it wouldn't work as necessary or desireable to research printing press, so research might stay at 0. But, if you deemed it necessary to research printing press you would research it at *full* tilt (you would have cash stocked up) and then immediately sell it to anyone *you can* for GPT (slowing them down and making it more likely they would attack a neighbor with whom... say... they don't have a right of passage?). I wouldn't trade tech for a downpayment of gold only, unless someone had thousands of gold, and I would make GPT the aim.

6. Once you get education... or perhaps before (covered in 7.)... you have that science slider to maximum or 90% if the 100% option gives you the next tech in the same number of turns as 90% option. During this time your cities finish building libraries and build some universities (maybe cash rush some... maybe not), and make sure to build Copernicus's Observatory as well as Newton's University. Hopefully, the libraries and univerisities would come out quickly even without cash-rushing them since...

7. Well, I admit Sun Tzu's *looks* juicy for this game... but I think it's overall value comes as much lower than you expect, since you'll have plenty of time to build a barracks everywhere in the industrial ages since you have plenty of times for factories... then the Hoover Dam bonus... 20 shields... are you kidding me? So... and this indicates a possible cascade problem, so you'd have to manage this carefully... you build Leonardo's Workshop. Why? Well, you *would have* built the Great Library and Great Library+Leonardo's Workshop=Scientific+Militaristic=Golden Age for Germany. You end with the Golden Age perhaps a little ahead of, perhaps a little after the Great Library turns off.

This basically comes as the most important part of Drakan's "builder" playbook (he always does it after with a UU... but wonder-building can work on emperor... and on emperor a little before certainly won't hurt much). With plenty of libraries and universities either built or quickly built without cash-rushing them and a GA going on, I would then expect Germany to see plenty of 4 (or maybe 5... oh well) turn discoveries in the high medieval period as well as at least Smith's Trading Company, Copernicus's Observatory, Newton's University, and perhaps even J.S. Bach's Cathedral *quickly* and easily built. With my games on emperor this would imply a decent enough tech lead by the end of the high medieval period that you could reasonably sell techs a level back (e.g. you have discovered Theory of Gravity... and you sell them Physics) for GPT and keep your science slider very high... and even make some cash doing it. If you wouldn't have the ability to sell techs back a level in the high medieval era... you'd have it in the early or mid-industrial era. Unfortunately, much of 1 through 7 here seems to pivot on the Great Library... I guess at least 8 won't suffer, although it certainly doesn't come out as helpful as 1-7.

8. I see The Overseer said "Republics without specialist farms are unknown to me, how well would that work?" One can create... I think... a similar effect with the following... Build lots and lots (more than the 2 per city I'd suggest) of workers. In the industial age after you railroad everything up... irrigate everything or darn well close to... or at least a little more than normal (I usually irrigate everything... although in this game you'll probably want some mines once you have panzers). Add some workers into your cities (I usually leave *only* pollution cleaners... although you guys might want more), and put extra population beyond that 20 number to work as scientists or tax collectors. Using specialists in basically optimally spaced cities like what you guys have above might get you to flight a turn faster or get you some more gold so that you can buy panzers.... in other words, the optimally spaced cities end up functioning something like hybrids of cxxc cities AND specialist farms (I don't use specialist farms usually... so I can't state that as more than a haphazard guess here... though I think it correct, since I get a specialist farm effect).

1-7 on a standard sized emperor map can work-out as an overwhleming tech-wise. How overwhelming? I think this hard to say, but in one archipelago... golden-age trigger "war" only... emperor game with the Byzantines I had completed the U.N. in the regular way/partially with a prebuild and... as I recall the nearest AI had just started in on combustion... and I think they didn't have atomic theory. I only had 16 cities during that game (though I think I had 4 or so camp towns... which built nothing but really unecessary units for a while which I abandonded.) With another game on Emperor with the Maya on a pangea 60% water map, I SGL rushed the U.N. in 1305, I fought ZERO wars (I trigged my GA with Hoover Dam... so it actually worked out as sub-optimal since my medieval and industrial age discovery rate came as a bit slower), I didn't add in workers (though I did irrigate everywhere), I did admittedly have 20+ cities, and the nearest AIs needed atomic theory and eitehr flight or mass production. With a huge pangea *only one GA war game*... where I won one battle with a musketeer and the English didn't fire a shot at me, demi-god game with France and some 30+ cities, I had built the U.N. in 6 turns after researching fission (I finished researching rocketry and built the U.N. in the same turn), and the *lead* AIs (plenty of tech laggers actually) even though they had atomic theory and electronics, they had just finished researching combustion.

So... I guess I mean to say that the whole idea behind this game seems VERY feasible... and I'd guess even with 10 cities. Even if you only have a few turns of a tech-lead when you get motorized transportation, you might manage a tech-lead for when modern-armors come around. But, I sort of feel you guys have early warred too much, and well... you see the Great Library strategy all over here... so you guys have a rather different game here in my opinion. I think you'll still win and probably handily at that... but not as much as perhaps you could have. If only cavalry upgraged to tanks or panzers the strategy here might come out rather different. Best of luck... and I apologize if I seem harsh.

Thanks Darski... I've tried to make it better. I'd think you guys would want to build Copernicus's and Sun Tzu's in this game since you don't have the GLB on. This will start your GA as soon as possible and hopefully get a tech-lead rolling and possibly also allow you to build the rest of the wonders. If you miss Sun Tzu's, get Leo's.

The Mayan game and the France game (so you can see what I mean by hybrid specialist/normal cities) follow. The Byzantine game convinced me this sort of game as doable with 10 cities since I only had 16, two in the tundra, an unideal FP and some fairly corrupt cities. I think I had 4 or so camp towns (nothing but units and workers), which I had abandonded by this point. I also built a town next to a volcano and then abandoned it for a town I placed one square over. I don't have the end save, so here's a mid-game save.

if you are going to make very long posts, could you please put in line breaks for old eyes to read. I don't even try to read large blocks without them so whatever you had to say is lost to me.

lurker's comment: FYI: I am pretty sure when the screen comes up to renogotiate peace, if you accept, you are not locked into 20 turns of peace, unless you ask for additional GPT or something, as well.

ThinkTank said:

I agree to making peace with the Mongols. Don't forget to cancel the alliance with the Vikings first then.

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We've had that MA for about 25 turns now. Shouldn't we be able to make peace with the Mongols without worrying about what the Vikings think?

I see that I'm UP! I'll try to work on a strategy post tonight.

CommandoBob said:

We've had that MA for about 25 turns now. Shouldn't we be able to make peace with the Mongols without worrying about what the Vikings think?

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I don't know, this is just how I always do it: wait out the 20 turns, then cancel the alliance, and make peace with the (formerly common) enemy. But maybe you're right and once the 20 turns are over you can just make peace with the common enemy without a reputation hit for breaking the alliance.