The Immortal Challenge 2: For the Fatherland

However, if by "too expensive," you mean it costs too many hammers to build defensive units when you still need offensive troops, then I agree with your position.

Yup, both hammers and gold. An offensive army can be rather large, and all those troops would cost us even more gold when we march our army into enemy lands. You might be looking at an economic crash that might not be fully compensated by the specialists (which are not powered up by Representation).

But I'm sure some of you would be more successful with a different approach. Or maybe it would be less difficult on a lower difficulty. Immortal doesn't allow for much flexibility, which is why things become 'too expensive' easily.

Anyway, the second part of the update is coming up.
 
He's running Pacifism. HR+Pacifism=not exactly a good combo.

HR isn't as bad as you think. Unit maintenance is at most 1 gpt per unit (.9 at Immortal). So you're spending .9 gpt to gain 3 beakers (or 3 gold) + 3 gpp. That's a profitable investment.

You can't run Representation without Constitution anyway, so you might as well run HR while you're teching up.

Then, to ease your transition to Representation, make a simultaneous switch to Nationhood. The +:) from Representation and Nationhood combined should easily keep pace with the :) you were getting from HR.
 
He's running Pacifism. HR+Pacifism=not exactly a good combo.

What are the alternatives (given he doesn't have Pyramids)?

And besides HR is good in the early game when happiness is difficult to come by. I use it to give an early boost to important cities rather than distribute the extra garrison troops to all cities. In fact the smaller cities are used to build the garrison troops while the important cities (such as Berlin and Madrid for aelf here) spend all their hammers on buildings and wonders that boost the economy (beakers and gold). It is more effective to concentrate the limited early resources and combine the raw beakers (e.g. Berlin) with the best science multipliers (academy, library and monastry at this stage of the game). HR allows the smaller cities to help the important ones directly in this way and indirectly by building most of the offensive troops as well.
 
What are the alternatives (given he doesn't have Pyramids)?

And besides HR is good in the early game when happiness is difficult to come by. I use it to give an early boost to important cities rather than distribute the extra garrison troops to all cities. In fact the smaller cities are used to build the garrison troops while the important cities (such as Berlin and Madrid for aelf here) spend all their hammers on buildings and wonders that boost the economy (beakers and gold). It is more effective to concentrate the limited early resources and combine the raw beakers (e.g. Berlin) with the best science multipliers (academy, library and monastry at this stage of the game). HR allows the smaller cities to help the important ones directly in this way and indirectly by building most of the offensive troops as well.

Drama and the lux slider. With cheap theaters 10% lux is +2 happiness nation wide. The jump in productivity from 3 citizens to 5 is much more than the 10% you pay.
 
Round 5: 840AD - 1270AD
And we made the proposed switch to both Vassalage and Pacifism. So did the former save us some of the latter's increased unit costs? Let's see... Before:

immortal74.jpg


After:

immortal75.jpg


With savings on other unit cost, we incur a net of -3 from having to pay for the full amount of military unit cost. It worked! :goodjob:
No it didn't work. Don't you notice that there is no free support for military unit (12 out of 12 = nothing saved)?
 
[continued from the first part in the previous page]

Barcelona was pretty well defended, but it fell with the sacrifice of 3 of our catapults:

immortal87.jpg


We needed to strengthen our army before it could continue, but that was done pretty quickly by building a few trebs and upgrading a CR3 swordsman to a maceman.

And we got our next GP on the same turn. Guess what it was:

immortal88.jpg


Despite the odds! Now we could build the Buddhist shrine :goodjob:

The fighting, meanwhile, gave us our next GG:

immortal89.jpg


He was settled in Hamburg, the likeliest candidate for a Heroic Epic city.

The coveted Buddhist shrine was built on the next turn:

immortal90.jpg


That put an end to our wartime economic woes, allowing us to speed up our research again. By then Buddhism had spread itself pretty well.

On the way to Seville in the east, we razed a new Spanish city for some free xp and gold:

immortal91.jpg


Then, after Consitution was discovered, we wasted no time in switching to Representation:

immortal92.jpg


I contemplated whether I should stop playing here, since we needed to decide on whether to push for Democracy or go for Chemistry. But since we might be able to trade for Gunpowder, I decided to use the GS we had for Printing Press and research that tech first.

A couple of turns later, Seville fell into our hands:

immortal93.jpg


Unfortunately, both our trebuchets perished in the assault. Fortunately, we have 2 more in reserve, ready to be brought up against Cordoba.

On the next turn, as we discovered Printing Press, our next GS was born:

immortal94.jpg


Pacifism and Philosophical :goodjob: Here's our man for lightbulbing Chemistry.

This is where the round ended. The current tech situation:

immortal95.jpg


While we were slowly researching Consitution and waging war, some the AIs have gotten a lead over us. In fact, Huayna got Constitution before us. At this point, we have Liberalism on everyone, Nationalism on Brennus, Constitution on Washington and Printing Press on Huayna.

The power graph:

immortal96.jpg


I don't know why Louis needs such a strong military, but he's way up there.

GNP:

immortal97.jpg


Bad, as usual. But do we need to care?

The map of our continent:

immortal98.jpg


We are a long way from domination. Conquest has been slow as the AI proves itself to be somewhat competent enough at defending to delay us. We would probably need grenadiers and maybe cannons to take on Washington. The rest may have to wait until Panzers or later.

At least there would probably be no need to invade the other continent:

immortal99.jpg


I hope...

So what next? Do we go for Chemistry and try to increase the pace of our conquests? No one seems to be willing to trade Gunpowder yet, though. Do we continue heading for Democracy and build the SoL? On the war front, it's only a matter of time before Cordoba falls. Should we vassalize Isabella after that, or should we capture more of her cities or even eliminate her?

By the way, I need to start removing some of the saves from previous threads to free up space. I'll be removing those that are less popular.
 

Attachments

No it didn't work. Don't you notice that there is no free support for military unit (12 out of 12 = nothing saved)?

It did. We save on unit cost (the first one) even though we have to pay for military unit cost (the second one). We only ended up paying 3 gpt more. I don't think that would be the case if we had only switched to Pacifism. Let's give it a try...

Switched only to Pacifism in 840AD:

immortal75b.jpg


Need I say more?
 
It did. We save on unit cost (the first one) even though we have to pay for military unit cost (the second one). We only ended up paying 3 gpt more. I don't think that would be the case if we had only switched to Pacifism. Let's give it a try...

Switched only to Pacifism in 840AD:

immortal75b.jpg


Need I say more?

If you look at your research, you'll see that in this parallel world, you have 16 more beakers. Need I say more? ;)
 
If you look at your research, you'll see that in this parallel world, you have 16 more beakers. Need I say more? ;)

Ah, but you're forgetting the xp bonus Vassalage gave us at the point of time when we were building troops.
 
Ah, but you're forgetting the xp bonus Vassalage gave us at the point of time when we were building troops.

good point
I still think there is no synergy between vassalage and pacifism, but it may be a lesser bad in your situation.
Honestly I'd have used bureaucracy + theocracy, for faster and more XPed units. Then switched to pacifism after the unit building rush (and mostly after the GG was settled).
 
Probably stupid but :

From what I've seen, you've got a strong tech lead on Louis ... so why not planning to invade him instead of figthing Brennus or Huynay? :crazyeye:

I mean, Louis has a strong military power but full of obsolete unit ... You should be able to raze him with grenadier and canon ... He's got a great continent with plenty of big cities ... He might become stronger and stronger so why not beat him before that ... I can't evaluate the costs/benefits for this ... Just thinking he 's maybe the easiest one to fight and his continent may bring you some good point in land and population ... Am I totally wrong?
And you probably can leave peacefully for a while on your continent as all are boudhist ...
 
good point
I still think there is no synergy between vassalage and pacifism, but it may be a lesser bad in your situation.
Honestly I'd have used bureaucracy + theocracy, for faster and more XPed units. Then switched to pacifism after the unit building rush (and mostly after the GG was settled).

Well, that depends on whether you value Pacifism more or Bureaucracy more.

From what I've seen, you've got a strong tech lead on Louis ... so why not planning to invade him instead of figthing Brennus or Huynay? :crazyeye:

I mean, Louis has a strong military power but full of obsolete unit ... You should be able to raze him with grenadier and canon ... He's got a great continent with plenty of big cities ... He might become stronger and stronger so why not beat him before that ... I can't evaluate the costs/benefits for this ... Just thinking he 's maybe the easiest one to fight and his continent may bring you some good point in land and population ... Am I totally wrong?
And you probably can leave peacefully for a while on your continent as all are boudhist ...

Good point, but I doubt Louis would be backward enough to make invading him (considering it would be an intercontinental effort) easier.
 
Good point, but I doubt Louis would be backward enough to make invading him (considering it would be an intercontinental effort) easier.

It may be really long but :
- if you stay on your continent (hoping its enough), you'll have to crush Washington ASAP and then wait for Panzer to keep gaigning land ... Brennus is already ahead in tech and Huynay also ... They probably won't accept to war with each other as Louis will be the enemy ... By the mean time Louis my run away and become a threat ... and attack you ... You may try to bribe him into war with one of the 2 guys but i'm not sure this will slow them down ... I don't talk of the vassalasing problems that can occur ...

- During your attack against Washington, you can research Astronomy and then send your army to Louis (hoping he hasn't catch up). The sooner you attack Louis, the less tech trad He will have done to catch up. To keep the tech lead on Louis, you'll have your buddies on your continent ...
Your empire on the biggest continent won't probably see any french army and will keep improving ... I think that the control of Louis's continent + the northern part of your current continent may be enough for a domination victory ....


But i'm not really used to play on epic/normal speed so I'm probably not evaluating that correctly ...

ps : sorry for my english! ;)
 
I had a quick look at the savegame.

Madrid looks promising now you have the shrine. I'd build a market, bank and grocer there before a universisty (unless it was the 6th one needed for Oxford). Extra gold is just as good as extra beakers. The cultural problem in that area is only going to be solved by you taking Cordoba. (edit : or Izzy Capitulating)

Berlin is looking good with high beakers and stacks of GPPs each turn. It is a bit confused at present running Bureacracy and Pacifisim. One benefits from hammers and commerce and the other from food running specialists. It is astounding to see the +300 GPP bonus which makes food very valuable but concentrating too much in Berlin will make running specialists in other cities less useful. That makes it hard to decide which direction your hybrid economy should take.

I'm not sure what you long term war aims are but I noticed Izzy will capitulate to you. I tried it and she did with a tech... so maybe finishing the war with her now would allow you to get at Washington quicker and she might help militarily. I can't see her trading techs with you in the near future as you declared war on her (-6) and razed a city (-5), but you get +7 for religion and another +1 for adopting it (that's rarely seen). If anyone can persuade an annoyed Izzy to trade with him it will be the silver-tongued aelf :D
 
I'm not sure what you long term war aims are but I noticed Izzy will capitulate to you. I tried it and she did with a tech... so maybe finishing the war with her now would allow you to get at Washington quicker and she might help militarily. I can't see her trading techs with you in the near future as you declared war on her (-6) and razed a city (-5), but you get +7 for religion and another +1 for adopting it (that's rarely seen). If anyone can persuade an annoyed Izzy to trade with him it will be the silver-tongued aelf :D
the "hidden" defensive pact coming with vassalization +
running theocracy for a while would bring into cautious domain,
+ mutual struggle could bring her into pleased domain.
Still far from being a good vassal IMHO (not enough cities to be a real help in power or techs).
 
Panzers making a difference, that'll be way cool. But too bad the AI are very fond of making gunships.

I'm not sure if SOL would be very useful. You don't have many cities. Perhaps chemistry and steel would be more helpful. Since you don't have a very large empire, you won't produce enough units to capture and hold cities. I suggest more razing and resettling than keeping.
 
I'm not sure if SOL would be very useful. You don't have many cities.

SOL is the ideal wonder to support further conquest on this continent. A free specialist in each newly conquered city gets it off to a great start in the German empire. Also in Berlin, Madrid and Barcelona a free specialist will help produce more GPs. It is worth 12 GPPs in Berlin and 9 GPPs in the other 2 cities and that will crank out several more GPs if he continues to run Representation and Pacifism as the main source of research (and maybe add Mercantilism as well). Madrid with a market, bank and grocer could be a powerful source of gold with the shrine and running 4 merchants for GMs to send on trade missions.
 
when building up an army, I value bureaucracy more than pacifism
when gunning for liberalism, I value pacifism more than theocracy, and stick with bureaucracy to pay for the army

Sometimes you have to balance things, and in this case I think it paid off.

I'm not sure what you long term war aims are but I noticed Izzy will capitulate to you. I tried it and she did with a tech... so maybe finishing the war with her now would allow you to get at Washington quicker and she might help militarily.

In that case, the ideal situation would be Washington throwing all of his army at Cordoba, taking it and wasting lots of his troops. Then we proceed take it from him and never give it back to Izzy :D Don't know if that's hoping for too much, though.

And, yes, the GPP in Berlin is :goodjob:

Panzers making a difference, that'll be way cool. But too bad the AI are very fond of making gunships.

That's if we let them.
 
Fascinating as always. You are at a part of the game where things usually start falling apart from me. Once the initial 'rush' is over and the AI starts to accelerate away in technology, I find myself attacking cavalry and rifleman (and before long, Infantry) with catapults and macemen. Looking forward to seeing how the next few centuries pan out.
 
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