AbsintheRed
Deity
Intruducing merchant units in the game sounds nice
But then we should have both land and naval merchants, like Merijn said
But then we should have both land and naval merchants, like Merijn said
Beta UHV discussion
- Thread starter sedna17
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AbsintheRed
Deity
I like this
Maybe gain X gold through naval trade missions, then there is no confusion with great merchants
Opera
Deity
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As you see fit; I don't think it's an issue to leave open the possibility to use GMs trade mission ability.
In the case of both naval and land merchant units, I guess they should come at different techs, right? Maybe Farriers for land and the War Galley tech for naval? Or even later?
In the case of both naval and land merchant units, I guess they should come at different techs, right? Maybe Farriers for land and the War Galley tech for naval? Or even later?
dragodon64
Noble
Land and sea merchants would be a great addition to the mod. However, I don't think the Dutch special unit needs to replace the sea merchant. That would honestly be kinda lame even if it is useful, like the Indian Fast Worker in vanilla Civ4.
Colony building UHVs that put a slight limitation on which colonies need to be built would be a good idea (like getting spices from colonies), but it would be annoying to spawn and have all such colonies already built.
Colony building UHVs that put a slight limitation on which colonies need to be built would be a good idea (like getting spices from colonies), but it would be annoying to spawn and have all such colonies already built.
Morholt
Prince
I would vote against merchant units since they are annoying to micro and trade is already represented in an abstract fashion by trade routes.
3Miro
Deity
That's actually a great point. Caravans from Civ II were replaced by trade routes and the Dutch already have the trade route UP. Furthermore, our map consists only of Europe, if we were doing RFC then you can trade from Europe to China and get a lot of money, but here you can only trade from the Netherlands to Italy or Russia.
We would need something else.
I guess we need ahistoric UHV as the Dutch were a colonial power and they were way ahead in Economy, become the richest nation in Europe would be fitting (reversing the crash in their Stock Exchange), but I am not sure if it is doable.
merijn_v1
Black Belt
The new merchants can also be included not just for the Dutch UHV, but as a new feature itself. I never said their UU should be a replacement of one of those merchants.
The UHV of getting an X amount of gold by trade missions is better than the one I came up with.
Allowing Great merchants for there UHV isn't bad at all. For the human it is a decision to make, because you also need Great Merchants for their 1st UHV. And the AI doesn't care about the UHVs. It will require better thinking for the human player to get the UHVs.
IMO, it doesn't matter that the trading missions are limited to Europe. Most import was done from the colonies (which is represented by the colonies in this mod), but the Netherlands exported the biggest amount of their goods to the countries in Europe. So that wouldn't be too ahistorical at all.
If the "Conquer England UHV" will be included, it doesn't realy care that the AI doens't understand it. The human player does know how to attack overseas, and the AI doens't bother about the UHVs.
The UHV of getting an X amount of gold by trade missions is better than the one I came up with.
Allowing Great merchants for there UHV isn't bad at all. For the human it is a decision to make, because you also need Great Merchants for their 1st UHV. And the AI doesn't care about the UHVs. It will require better thinking for the human player to get the UHVs.
IMO, it doesn't matter that the trading missions are limited to Europe. Most import was done from the colonies (which is represented by the colonies in this mod), but the Netherlands exported the biggest amount of their goods to the countries in Europe. So that wouldn't be too ahistorical at all.
Spoiler :
If the "Conquer England UHV" will be included, it doesn't realy care that the AI doens't understand it. The human player does know how to attack overseas, and the AI doens't bother about the UHVs.
I kinda like the 'conquer england UHV(and hold on to)' best, but the netherlands would need a tweak to manage to do so
it would somwhat fit as one that 'wasn't achieved' (i know they did, but they did get invited to invade after all, and only lasted for some 10+ years until 'Anne' succeded to the throne)
afaik england was the main competetor for the netherlands so it would make sense 'to get rid of them'
the trade part is already pretty well covered..
but just for kicks, another idea
(kinda far fetched though)
giving the netherlands an even better tech starting position(start with economics or so) to symbolize their superiority back then, but as a UHV something that still requires effort in obtaining (i.e. have an insane amount of gold 100.000 or so)
but as mentioned, the economics part is already covered and something like this would probably screw up in game balance completely
and getting ahead of things.. as name for conquering england UHV: Dominion of the High Seas or so?(which is what england achieved later on)
it would somwhat fit as one that 'wasn't achieved' (i know they did, but they did get invited to invade after all, and only lasted for some 10+ years until 'Anne' succeded to the throne)
afaik england was the main competetor for the netherlands so it would make sense 'to get rid of them'
the trade part is already pretty well covered..
but just for kicks, another idea
(kinda far fetched though)giving the netherlands an even better tech starting position(start with economics or so) to symbolize their superiority back then, but as a UHV something that still requires effort in obtaining (i.e. have an insane amount of gold 100.000 or so)
but as mentioned, the economics part is already covered and something like this would probably screw up in game balance completely
and getting ahead of things.. as name for conquering england UHV: Dominion of the High Seas or so?(which is what england achieved later on)
Opera
Deity
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At the very least, I find that "get X gold through trade missions" is more interesting than simply "get X open borders". Maybe the first uhv could be merged with this one? "Settle 4 great merchants and get X gold through trade missions." Then remove the OB one and replace it with the conquering england one?
(Although I must say the Dutch are in my mind a peaceful play civ, so...)
(Although I must say the Dutch are in my mind a peaceful play civ, so...)
Dominion of the high seas: Be the only one with Atlantic Access for a 20+ turn interval.
Can be done with privateers, but they don't last long against the Carrack spam the AI is so fond of, so only sure fire way would be to wage at least one war.
*Shudder* at the prospect of assaulting the isles .. have you seen the stacks the AI amasses there over time? Hahahahahahaha.
Can be done with privateers, but they don't last long against the Carrack spam the AI is so fond of, so only sure fire way would be to wage at least one war.
*Shudder* at the prospect of assaulting the isles .. have you seen the stacks the AI amasses there over time? Hahahahahahaha.
MariusMR
Chieftain
Sorry to burst in here too, but I have a question about the Lithuanian UHV about accumulating 4 000 culture points without declaring a state religion before 1386.
This requirement has to be met within approximately 75 turns.
Unlike the Burgundian equivalent, it does not state that Great Artists' Great Works don't count, so I assumed it would be okay to go that route.
I researched Philosophy > Education (this alone takes 30 turns) to enable the Apprenticeship civic allowing for Artist specialists. While researching education I emphasised growth in Kaunas to allow for enough specialists.
Once the revolution was over, I added four artists in Kaunas and a Great Artist arrived 12 turns later. I created the Great Work, the culture points meter didn't recognise it, and I even played on until after 1386 to see if it might just not be counting it properly in the indicator. No such luck.
If Great Artists' Great Works don't count, I think it should at least be mentioned.
The other issue is that for the UHV requirement to be met it requires actually producing the culture points within 75 turns without the assistance of "building culture" enabled by the discovery of Drama.
This effectively translates into producing something like 53 culture points per turn until 1386, either through spamming artist specialists after adopting Apprenticeship, or by letting your only three / four cities (if you're lucky) build culture instead of something useful for about 150 years or until you adopt Apprenticeship.
I've tried various strategies for this and I've failed miserably repeatedly now, which officially makes Lithuania my least favourite civ to play
Any comments / suggestions / feedback on this UHV? I've even tried conquering huge Polish cities
This requirement has to be met within approximately 75 turns.
Unlike the Burgundian equivalent, it does not state that Great Artists' Great Works don't count, so I assumed it would be okay to go that route.
I researched Philosophy > Education (this alone takes 30 turns) to enable the Apprenticeship civic allowing for Artist specialists. While researching education I emphasised growth in Kaunas to allow for enough specialists.
Once the revolution was over, I added four artists in Kaunas and a Great Artist arrived 12 turns later. I created the Great Work, the culture points meter didn't recognise it, and I even played on until after 1386 to see if it might just not be counting it properly in the indicator. No such luck.
If Great Artists' Great Works don't count, I think it should at least be mentioned.
The other issue is that for the UHV requirement to be met it requires actually producing the culture points within 75 turns without the assistance of "building culture" enabled by the discovery of Drama.
This effectively translates into producing something like 53 culture points per turn until 1386, either through spamming artist specialists after adopting Apprenticeship, or by letting your only three / four cities (if you're lucky) build culture instead of something useful for about 150 years or until you adopt Apprenticeship.
I've tried various strategies for this and I've failed miserably repeatedly now, which officially makes Lithuania my least favourite civ to play
Any comments / suggestions / feedback on this UHV? I've even tried conquering huge Polish cities
Opera
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2008
- Messages
- 4,643
Frankly it's kind of annoying to prevent the use of Great Artists. They're already not so useful, the UHVs are making them even more so useless.
BTW, the Germans UHVs are probably too easy. It's only teching and conquering, the second making the first quite easy. Maybe the protestantism UHV should be about spreading and/or building cathedrals or something.
Similarly, having two UHVs basically being the same but one a little bit harder is boring. I'm pretty sure the HRE had something else besides its extent and Protestantism.
BTW, the Germans UHVs are probably too easy. It's only teching and conquering, the second making the first quite easy. Maybe the protestantism UHV should be about spreading and/or building cathedrals or something.
Similarly, having two UHVs basically being the same but one a little bit harder is boring. I'm pretty sure the HRE had something else besides its extent and Protestantism.
Dutch UHV win in 1690:
Torre de Belem built in 1586.
Augsburg Families founded in 1590.
Royal Acadamy(Great Scientist) built in Amsterdam.
7 Great Merchants & 1 Great Scientist settled in Amsterdam.
East Africa, Jamaica, Virginia and Brazil built.
Researching Economics to build the Amsterdam Beurs would take 18 turns.
The Great Scientist from researching Physics would give 1638 of required 22926 research towards that goal.
So I suppose building the Amsterdam Beurs by 1750 would be possible. But the increased tech cost does put it somewhat out of range. And i'm losing the culture push against Germany and France so I don't really feel like continuing.
AbsintheRed
Deity
Sorry to burst in here too, but I have a question about the Lithuanian UHV about accumulating 4 000 culture points without declaring a state religion before 1386.
This requirement has to be met within approximately 75 turns.
Unlike the Burgundian equivalent, it does not state that Great Artists' Great Works don't count, so I assumed it would be okay to go that route.
I researched Philosophy > Education (this alone takes 30 turns) to enable the Apprenticeship civic allowing for Artist specialists. While researching education I emphasised growth in Kaunas to allow for enough specialists.
Once the revolution was over, I added four artists in Kaunas and a Great Artist arrived 12 turns later. I created the Great Work, the culture points meter didn't recognise it, and I even played on until after 1386 to see if it might just not be counting it properly in the indicator. No such luck.
If Great Artists' Great Works don't count, I think it should at least be mentioned.
The other issue is that for the UHV requirement to be met it requires actually producing the culture points within 75 turns without the assistance of "building culture" enabled by the discovery of Drama.
This effectively translates into producing something like 53 culture points per turn until 1386, either through spamming artist specialists after adopting Apprenticeship, or by letting your only three / four cities (if you're lucky) build culture instead of something useful for about 150 years or until you adopt Apprenticeship.
I've tried various strategies for this and I've failed miserably repeatedly now, which officially makes Lithuania my least favourite civ to play
Any comments / suggestions / feedback on this UHV? I've even tried conquering huge Polish cities
The UHV is not really possible (or at least extremely hard) without GA, so this is a bug
amrod
Warlord
I've said about Norse in another thread, but should've written here.
For the capturing of cities:
We have to consider that every game turn is in reality several years. IRL they probably produced a whole army in a year or less, while here a single ship is produced in 4-5 turns (times a few years/turn). There's nowhere the great viking armies.. I seem to need about two ships with 4 berserkers to capture most cities except early ones, and I can usually attack one city at a time.
I have to practically build units all the time and still be hardly pressed to finish the uhv.
And by the time Normandy is settled, the French have a larger army than I have (and it would be unhistorical to settle there myself before they do, though gonna try that tactic too).
Sicily is far away and you need to declare war with Cordoba to get there (someone already mentioned this problem somewhere).
On stability:
I came near to completing the UHV, except for Normandy, which was taken back from me (they have a large army), and some cities rebel (I started building manors in my latest game, but it leaves less time for armies). Maybe something should be done with stability - increase it for norse?
Also, as far as I remember of history (not much of vikings though), the settlements the Vikings captured in far away places had become pretty much independent places (Normandy, Sicily, Iceland etc). You can't rule Sicily from Scandinavia, with hostile countries in between. So in Civ4 terms it could mean capturing those cities then clicking on the "grant independence" button. You could still house troops there to defend them, but wouldn't have to mind about stability and city management.
On viking points: it seems convenient to achieve this by pillaging the French landscape. Pillaging in Britain doesn't seem a good idea, if I want those cities to produce units for me (they are slow, but could provide a few units). A problem is that I only saw a few ships in the Mediterranean and none in the Atlantic (yeah they are afraid of me?). Also Viking ships are not better than any other in combat. And I never understood the 10% tile defence in sea of Civ4...
For the capturing of cities:
We have to consider that every game turn is in reality several years. IRL they probably produced a whole army in a year or less, while here a single ship is produced in 4-5 turns (times a few years/turn). There's nowhere the great viking armies.. I seem to need about two ships with 4 berserkers to capture most cities except early ones, and I can usually attack one city at a time.
I have to practically build units all the time and still be hardly pressed to finish the uhv.
And by the time Normandy is settled, the French have a larger army than I have (and it would be unhistorical to settle there myself before they do, though gonna try that tactic too).
Sicily is far away and you need to declare war with Cordoba to get there (someone already mentioned this problem somewhere).
On stability:
I came near to completing the UHV, except for Normandy, which was taken back from me (they have a large army), and some cities rebel (I started building manors in my latest game, but it leaves less time for armies). Maybe something should be done with stability - increase it for norse?
Also, as far as I remember of history (not much of vikings though), the settlements the Vikings captured in far away places had become pretty much independent places (Normandy, Sicily, Iceland etc). You can't rule Sicily from Scandinavia, with hostile countries in between. So in Civ4 terms it could mean capturing those cities then clicking on the "grant independence" button. You could still house troops there to defend them, but wouldn't have to mind about stability and city management.
On viking points: it seems convenient to achieve this by pillaging the French landscape. Pillaging in Britain doesn't seem a good idea, if I want those cities to produce units for me (they are slow, but could provide a few units). A problem is that I only saw a few ships in the Mediterranean and none in the Atlantic (yeah they are afraid of me?). Also Viking ships are not better than any other in combat. And I never understood the 10% tile defence in sea of Civ4...
3Miro
Deity
People have done all the Norse UHV, perhaps they can give some insight. I haven't played the Norse since we increased the Viking Points.
MariusMR
Chieftain
I'm playing a game as Spain (RFCE++ admittedly) and the 2nd (Colony) UHV didn't fire despite the fact that I had build the only two colonies!
It worked perfectly previously on viceroy, but this is a game on monarch.
Any thoughts?
It worked perfectly previously on viceroy, but this is a game on monarch.
Any thoughts?
3Miro
Deity
Do you have a savegame? If the Victory module crashes, then all UHV conditions can break. The error may be with Spain or it may be with any nation including the new ones in RFCE++.
MariusMR
Chieftain
I'm attaching savegames for the turn before and after / on the UHV requirement.
I've played a viceroy game with Spain on the latest version (Alpha 4) of RFCE++ and I had no issue if I recall correctly.
I've played a viceroy game with Spain on the latest version (Alpha 4) of RFCE++ and I had no issue if I recall correctly.
Morholt
Prince
Ran your save and it seems France has 202987 colonies, which obviously is not right.
I searched the code a bit and it seems unlikely that setNumColonies is being called in error. The code concerning colonies seems to be written properly without assumptions about the number of civs so the added civs should not be a direct problem.
3Miro, is it possible that the int holding the number of colonies for each player simply is not initialized properly?
I searched the code a bit and it seems unlikely that setNumColonies is being called in error. The code concerning colonies seems to be written properly without assumptions about the number of civs so the added civs should not be a direct problem.
3Miro, is it possible that the int holding the number of colonies for each player simply is not initialized properly?
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