The Immortal Challenge 3: The Gathering Storm

Hi everyone, I just joined Civ Fanatics recently and this is my first time ever posting. I would just like to say thanks to aelf for the EMC and Immortal Challenge. Thanks for all the work to post everything not to mention opening yourself to everyone's criticism. I think it's been really beneficial for a lot of people. I've personally learned a lot from going back and reading those treads and now I get to follow this one real time!
To that end, I'm going to give my two cents

Since nobody's commented I wanted to second sisutil's idea to use some navy for the war against Rome. That would be very cool to see and I think quite efficient in reinforcing the main attack stack.

I agree that we should wait on calender as it would hurt too much but I've never played on immortal so maybe your concern about the AI getting Metal Casting is a serious one and the AI doesn't currently have any other high value techs to trade so maybe we should grab calender since we can. Hmmm . . . I guess I'm giving contradictory advice on the tech path.

Also can't wait to see you use some elephants especially against Prats! That should be exciting.

about the navy , i am not against it, but i doubt aelf will have enough hammer for units, buildings as well as galleys.

i only saw Chinese leaders often go MC early because of their UU, other civ often didn't. holding MC is not highly risky if u check tech screen every turn. at least it is very unlikely that both civs will finish MC in the same turn and leave u nothing for trade.

by the way, i followed his treads since the first EMC, I start to contribute my ideas mainly on this third Immortal one.

I think we've got a plan, and I'll be playing the next round as soon as I can (probably tomorrow).

what's the plan like?

Aelf-
Kind of surprised to see you build research when you need settlers, workers, etc. Have to get your land developed.
I agree with a war with JC, but keep in mind you are really quite a bit off the pace having gone for MC instead of const.
As for trading, I agree with skipping trading for calender.
Expect to face LB so you will need a pretty good force.

build research is good, another city right now will cost more money and even lower his research rate. on immortal, maintanance cost rises really quickly.
he doesn't have enough populations in his city to work the improvement tile, so worker is not that ergent.( except that plain hill forest in capital, maybe that citizen will be whipped away soon)
he has to wait maths for trading so without wasting beaker, MC is the best tech he can go and construction needs maths.

PericlesOfAthen said:

Hi everyone, I just joined Civ Fanatics recently and this is my first time ever posting. I would just like to say thanks to aelf for the EMC and Immortal Challenge. Thanks for all the work to post everything not to mention opening yourself to everyone's criticism. I think it's been really beneficial for a lot of people. I've personally learned a lot from going back and reading those treads and now I get to follow this one real time!

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Thanks and welcome to CFC!

PericlesOfAthen said:

Since nobody's commented I wanted to second sisutil's idea to use some navy for the war against Rome. That would be very cool to see and I think quite efficient in reinforcing the main attack stack.

Click to expand...

That might be done.

ungy said:

Kind of surprised to see you build research when you need settlers, workers, etc. Have to get your land developed.
I agree with a war with JC, but keep in mind you are really quite a bit off the pace having gone for MC instead of const.

Click to expand...

We have enough workers and are already developing tiles that we can't work yet. And how many more settlers can we build without tanking the economy? One is ready soon, and I'm already worried that the new city might slow our research down too much.

MC is actually quite a good tech military-wise, since forges give a boost to production, which is very important when it comes to war. And the Colossus might just be important in helping to pay for an army. Besides, going for Construction at that early stage would only be counterproductive. The research would be really slow and we wouldn't have had any tech to trade or get the benefits of a new tech in the meantime. I think we were better off waiting and getting MC first. I'm not sure what pace you're referring to, but I don't think Caesar will put up a good fight up to Antium even if he has longbows already.

Another vote for the use of a navy in attack operations, you are England after all.

i guess u will attack the Rome's capital with your full strength by sea. your galleys could be parked 3 NE of Rome, and u can land units 1 N of Rome immediately after declare war. the troops on that hill gets defensive bonus and cut reinforcement from north. and Antium next so u get iron and good commerce city when the first wave is done. Two cities captured can be linked by coast.

Pisae could be razed and resettled 1 SW so u won't waste good jungle tiles for cottages. Cumae and Neapolis are in good dot map so they as well as the city in the fog could be kept. Ravenna and the barb city could be razed and resettled on that desert hill.

i guess Bismark's galley contains a settler.

Agree that using galleys along the coast is a neat idea, and in character, but it will probably burn up more hammers than it's worth.

IMHO, Aelf would need at least three galleys to get a significant enough stack on some roman city's doorstep, plus a trireme or two to protect the transports. How many combat units does this buy? And what are you going to do with them once the war is over?

Plus the mobility-advantage of naval transportation only plays out if you move two turns or more, because of (un)loading - but the further you go, the more difficult it becomes to get in reinforcements in time.

I mean, I'd love to see it done, especially the logistics of it. However, JC is not going to be a pushover and I am already concerned about Aelf's timing. So I'd advise against.

there is long time before he can get to construction, if he choose not to build research he can build 7-8 galleys in York and Nottingham and units in capital. strike the capital first will actually save hammer later, JC is heading to federalism so attack the capital when he still has archer. assume 5 archers and 2 axeman in capital, 8 catapults+ 6 units would be able to take Rome.

Quote:
"IMHO, Aelf would need at least three galleys to get a significant enough stack on some roman city's doorstep, plus a trireme or two to protect the transports. How many combat units does this buy? And what are you going to do with them once the war is over?"

You make some good points Jorunkun. At this point Roman cities are relatively close to our borders so galleys aren't helping so much and Aelf's production capacity with three cities is limited. I wasn't thinking of using them as landing a force at the capital though. I was thinking rather build one or two galleys and a trireme for helping reinforce the main stack once he's already begun his attack. Then I'm assuming once we capture the three cities aelf recommended we'll sue for peace and we can use the ships to patrol our southwestern coast as there is a lot of unsettled land there that the AI might try to put down a city. After the war Aelf will have time to settle cities in that peninsula it will become more practical for a full use of galleys to land a second invasion force in a second war against Rome to finish him off. So maybe limited navy this round and a full-scale use in a potential second war with Rome.

Guys, guys, are you being serious?

As much as I would love to see His Majesty's Navy in action...I must remind that we are currently paying on Immortal level, contemplating attack against JC!

Galleys and Triremes are damn expensive. 8 ships = 10 Catapults or 11,5 axes hammer-wise! And they are...khm...USELESS when taking cities. I would have 10 cats instead of 8 ships any day a week!

Aelf should build either axes or research in his precious few cities (to get to Construction quicker), as TIME is of the essence! Hammers spent on navy this early are hammers wasted, imho. We have no room for error here. Also, expect to see some hostile triremes. Rome has a bunch of coastal cities, and AI loves to build triremes. That would mean out naval pride would be at the mercy of RNG with very slim odds! Early naval warfare can hope to be successful only if you either spam your opponent with numbers or...khm...reload every unlucky roll. Both options are out of question I think...

Yeekim said:

Guys, guys, are you being serious?

As much as I would love to see His Majesty's Navy in action...I must remind that we are currently paying on Immortal level, contemplating attack against JC!

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Okay, okay... though I still think a Galley or two, combined with a Trireme for protection, could be invaluable for quickly ferrying reinforcements to the front, what with the layout of this map and all.

Round 4: 55BC - 680AD

I agreed with the common opinion that Calendar was not worth trading for. Someone suggested we trade for Monarchy if Bismark or Caesar was already running HR, and indeed they were. So I decided to set the scene for the trade, pretty much in the manner suggested. We researched Meditation for 3 turns and then went to Bismarck:



Priesthood is required for Monarchy. And I took the additional techs of Masonry and HBR to complete the trade, the former to open up Construction and the latter to enable stables for Shock elephants.

On the next turn, we went to Caesar:



And then we switched to Hereditary Rule. The next tech we researched was Construction for catapults and elephants, with which we would attack the Romans and hopefully pull ourselves out of this disadvantageous geopolitical situation.

Our settler was completed and I sent him further down the peninsula. He didn't settle 2W of the copper, though. I took the suggestion someone made and settled him 1S of it to grab the copper, crabs and stone, leaving room for a mutton-and-wine city near London.

And, as it turned out, Bismark's galley was indeed carrying a settler. We could have just beaten him to the spot above by a few turns, which might be why he decided to settle on the little island to the south:



Settling Hastings caused a new drain on our treasury, but it was probably worth it.

Once Construction was discovered, we began building/chopping/whipping catapults and elephants while researching CoL next.

Then Caesar came to us:



He really was asking for it, wasn't he? Of course I wasn't going to give it to him. He had ivory as well, and we didn't want to worry about his elephants and catapults on top of his Praetorians, did we?

Anyway, with a forge built in Nottingham, the city found time to build and chop a wonder in between building catapults:



It was cheap and would help our miserable economy, and hence worth the effort.

And then, having built up a respectable army of siege weapons, pachyderms and axemen (including the CR2 ones we had), we attacked:



Yes, Caesar had gotten longbows by then (and he had Construction too). Fortunately, we had quite a few catapults to help deal with them (there were more heading to the war front). Our war plan was to capture Neapolis and then make a thrust for Antium, after which the front with Rome (the city and capital) would be stabilised. Then we would move on one of the Roman cities near the iron to the north (unfortunately, none of them actually have the iron in the BFC - I will elaborate on this later).

Neapolis fell quickly:



The city was defended by a longbow, an axeman and a (freshly whipped) Praetorian. We only lost one catapult and one axeman in the attack.

If you noticed from the screenshots above, we had finished researching CoL and had moved on to Civil Service when we launched our attack. But we were researching Currency when we captured Neapolis. Why? Both Bismark and Caesar had Currency, and I decided to play the research the tech partly gambit so that we could get it from the former. After a few turns of research, aided by building research in London and plunder money, Bismark agreed to trade:



Considering Caesar had gotten CoL by then, at least the trading value of that tech wasn't completely wasted. Then we went back to researching CS.

[to be continued in the next post...]

[continued from previous post]

There was another development in the Battle for Research when a GS was born in York:



At first, I intended to use him for an Academy. However, it would only give us about 20 extra bpt in London or York. And considering Philosophy (the tech he would lightbulb) is 1950 beakers or so, the Academy would take 40+ turns to give us the beaker's worth of it. And lightbulbing means we get the tech now for trading purposes. I decided to lightbulb.

A few turns later, Antium fell:



It was even more lightly defended, with a longbow and a spear (the AI really doesn't know how to fight at this stage, does it?). But we lost more troops here, two catapults and an axeman, IIRC.

This is where I stopped. Antium is in our hands, with it gem mines and proximity to Rome. The former means wealth and happiness, while the latter means potential danger as well as a future salient. The danger part should be pretty easily dealt with, since we can garrison most of our elephants in the city in case of a Praetorian counterattack.

Here's the current tech situation:



Caesar has had Machinery for a while, but we haven't seen any crossbows yet. And he also has Civil Service already, but there's no sign of macemen either. Anyway, Bismark is willing to trade Machinery for Philosophy and 80 gold. Should we make that trade?

The power graph:



Caesar is building up his forces after a slight drop in his power rating. I still don't think he will pose much of a threat anytime soon, though, knowing the AI. But we should keep our own rating up as much as possible to guard against Bismark, who dropped to Cautious when we declared war on Rome.

The GNP graph:



Not good, but not surprising either. Our CE is still in its infancy - or toddlerhood, rather.

And here's the map of the continent:



Yes, Caesar settled the mutton-and-wine city, strangely enough. It didn't cut Hastings off, though, so it doesn't matter at the moment. It would probably only mean we save on having to build a settler.

Anyway, as I mentioned, none of the Roman cities have the iron north of us in their BFCs. We would have to raze one of them and send our own settler there to claim it anytime soon. I've made a dotmap of the possible sites we could settle:



If we raze Magyar, we could settle Site A and claim the iron right away, but we would probably lose the wheat for good. If we raze Ravenna, we could settle Site B and claim the iron after the city's first border pop, and we would be able to capture Magyar (probably later) and get both the pigs and wheat. However, Roman cultural pressure may mean we can't gain control of the iron tile.

I'm tempted to make a run for Rome itself, since it has iron in its BFC, but with 4 catapults left, I don't think that's realistic. The capital is on a hill and likely to be heavily fortified.

If you have sailing, then Hastings won't be cut off until the wine cities borders grow some.

Congrats for successful conquest so far, aelf! Seems like tough going!
My 2 cents:
1) Don't trade for Machinery. You don't have Iron for crossbows anyway, so I can't see any short-term benefits. Feudalism is better bargain, imho. It costs the same and shaves a few beakers of CS. Also, you can actually build longbows, if needed. And last but not least, it unlocks Vassalage - though I don't know if 2 turns of Anarchy are worth it right now. But whatever you decide, there is little point in hoarding Philosophy from Bismarck. W/o religion, it's uses are limited!
2) Really can't say much about immediate action on war-front. Perhaps still try to siege Rome? Oh, why don't we have the invaluable benefit of religious line of sight! As far as further plans go, I vote for site B.

@Sisiutil: I have learned a precious lot from your invaluable contribution to these forums, so I do take your ideas with respect. And this one sure had flavor. But as we can see, even without investing into navy and limited resistance so far, dire shortage of siege equipment is hindering our campaign

Nice of Caesar to found that city on your peninsula for you. Be sure to let it grow to 2 pop and take it off his hands before the war is done.

Currency and CoL were good calls, as is CS. All will help your economy. Good play to get Monarchy--whoever came up with that plan deserves a pat on the back. Seriously, though, you did well by gaining some techs that are more worthwhile than Calendar from Bismarck. Well done.

You're doing remarkably well in a war where you're slightly outmatched technologically. It's a good thing Caesar isn't Protective, though. Now THAT would be painful. You really need a source of iron, so if eradication/subjugation of Rome is not achievable, then getting iron should be, otherwise you'll have gained little from this war.

So I would recommend somehow claiming iron to be your primary objective, with taking the Roman city on your peninsula as the secondary. I think it would make sense to leave Rome alone (unless you can somehow sneak over there and see how well it's protected). Instead, get a Settler ready and raze every Roman city near that north-central source of iron. That will also serve a secondary purpose of weakening Julius considerably.

EDIT: Yeekim, you're quite correct. Everytime I go to war in Civ IV, I always wish I'd brought more siege weapons. (I had to take out a Protective civ's capital in an off-line game a while back. 8 Protective Longbowmen in a city on a hill. It cost me somewhere in the neighbourhood of 8 Trebuchets, 2 Macemen, and 9 out of 12 Catapults.) Still, the whole point of the thread is to toss out possibilities for consideration. Too bad early ships aren't cheaper; they'd probably get a lot more play if they were.

Great thing Antium has many built cottage tiles, plus gems.