Expansion Civilizations

Xineoph, that is laughable that Israel / the Hebrews left an equal impact on history compared with China. No offence intended but last time I checked the Chinese practically made every major breakthrough either before, at the same time or soon after they were made elsewhere. Meanwhile Israel brought the world 2 religions, which may have caused a large amount of wars throughout history, were largely independent of the state of Israel since almost 2,000 years ago.

Koelle, Korean is only slightly based on Chinese, much like Japanese. Its alphabet however is completely different and phonetic. In fact many argue that there are similarities between ancient Egyptian and Chinese so using your logic we should pic between the 2 and exclude the other. Also I can't believe you think Tibet is worthy. They were never an empire of their own right and only enjoyed independence for a very short period, during the instability that followed the fall of Imperial China. Just because Western media treats them as an independent country of great influence doesn't make it so. They are IMO less significant then Taiwan because they were a 'small' ally of the Guo Ming Tang during the civil war, hence why they were invaded when the Guo Ming Tang fled out of reach to Taiwan.

Also, the Manchus are significant but what role do they have next to China? Arguing for them is like arguing for Italy and Rome to be included together IMO. Vietnam and the Khmer I understand though.

Yes it is laughable to say that Israel has had an equal impact on history as China - or any other nation. Israel (i.e., the decendats of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) has unquestionably been the most influential "nation" in history and will continue to be such. I am not Jewish, but I was an history major and have been awake much of my life.

So a nation that did not exist throughout the better parts of the last 2000 years in any shape or form was more influential then an empire that has lasted for over 5000 years?

So China makes virtually every significant discovery in history before every other nation on earth and outlasts any other empire in history. Meanwhile you believe that a tiny nation that has had a very small population at every point in history, an even smaller amount of territory and has never discovered anything of significance is more influential?

arcady said:

My list:

• Iroqoi - a major player in North America until the American Civil War era
• Koreans - the hermit kingdom, land of the morning calm, that has been the battleground between China and Japan for 2000 years.
• Maya - once a great meseoamerican civilization with a greater library than that at Alexandria until the Spanish found it.
• Zulu - the story of South Africa is wrapped in this nation's fall.
• Ethiopians - the only African power to never fall to Europe, and the home of the oldest Christian church's in the world, supposedly founded by Jesus' apostiles
• Celts - the original people of the 'British Isles', whos modern descendants still fill out many of the ethnic groups there
• Tibetans - once a military empire, now a pacifist people conquered by an agressive neighbor
• Aboriginee - the absolute oldest 'people' on Earth.
• Polynesians - founded a sailing legacy across the largest ocean on Earth, with little tech at all
• Lakota (aka Souix) - once the greatest warrior culture in North America, until they were finally defeated in 1890.
• Isrealites - From Abraham to David, most in the Western world know their story.
• Anasazi - the Navaho word for 'ancients' - the long lost civilization that built a network of highways and cities across the southwest until mysteriously disapearing.
• Siam - today Thailand they were once a great power in Southeast Asia and could do well to fill in an 'Asia game'.
• Navaho - by the time of USA getting to the west, the Navaho descendants of the Anasazi were and still are the city builders. The city of Santa Fe, the oldest European city in North America, is in their region.
• Ashanti - one of the great West African empires from 1670 until conquered by Europeans in 1902.
• Kongo - a great African empire into the 1500s.
• Songhai - Mali's great rival, conquered in the 1300s, it rose again in the 1500s until Morocco conquered it a century later.
• Moors - A north African kingdom that once viably threatened to conquer Europe.
• Toltec - the people who used Cortez to finally end the multigenerational war they had been having with the Aztecs, who were actually invaders from the north. Modern natives from the region around Mexico City are usually actually Toltec and not Aztec, and the feathered Serpent is the Toltec 'messiah god'.

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Best list so far. I would add the Nubians and Hittites since they were very important ancient powers.

Siam was never a southeast Asian SuperPower if anything its the Khmer, Siam writings and arts are from the Khmers.

People should remember this game is called CIVILIZATION, power is derived from 'cities', and is about settled, complex societies, not cultures per se. The Polynesians or Abos as civs, as has been suggested, is ridiculous.

senor freebie said:

Also I can't believe you think Tibet is worthy. They were never an empire of their own right and only enjoyed independence for a very short period, during the instability that followed the fall of Imperial China. Just because Western media treats them as an independent country of great influence doesn't make it so.

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I agree with most of what you've said but Tibet had its day in the sun, 7th-10th centuries. At its height it controlled the eastern end of the Silk Road and menaced China.

Khmers sound interesting. In fact I am sure that there should be scope for a SE Asia scenario. The map would be interesting, a real archipelago with big and small islands, you'd need terrain similar to meso america in civ3 irrigatable jungles etc.

Khmers vs Thais, Javanese, Buginese, Acehnese, Minangs etc etc.

Hmmm... (reaching for history book...)

If territory and population mean everything, then Japan should've been crushed by China, and India would've conquered the world.

The Hebrews may not have brought technology, but they did bring in the morals, that define our laws today. Don't kill, Don't Steal, Judaism was the most liberal, and more or less still is the most liberal religion to date.

It is also one of the oldest practice organized religions.

It's got history...unlike China, which has its history with civil wars constantly.

The Hebrews only experienced that once...and that was their downfall from power in the Middle East. After that they stuck together for the rest of history...or else, how would we still be here?

The Hebrews, are the most fiercely cultural preserved of all time...it has seen the Romans rise and fall...the Greeks...the Turks, the Arabs, the Mongols, Babylonians and countless others. But they are still here.

Name me one other civilization, which could survive two thousand years of slavery, massacres, forced conversions and wars, with a small population and still survive? And still make a gigantic influence in history? The list is very small, I assure you.

China may have brought physical technology, but technology comes and goes, Israel brought ways of life and life cannot be changed.

I’m sure maybe, there is some discrepancies to what I have said, but this was a mini-rant. Insulting Israel as you did…. now I expect you to apologize, for equating Israel to nothingness, because of lack of land and people.

i wish that china , japan and korea may working togather , that will be wonderful ...... hey , where is the Great Wall ?

I didn't insult Israel. I was realistic, totally unlike you, in stating that China has brought more to the world. They also brought values, survived the times (rather then falling from a single civil war) and ended up now, one of the most powerful civilizations on earth. Not only that but we not only fight our wars based on their technology but we do it using the techniques of Sun Tzu.

So you're saying the country that wrote the military doctrine for 95% of the worlds militaries and created the technology that 99.9% use is of the same significant because they didn't take part in writing European laws?

What about the laws and values the Chinese developed? What about the religions they've founded or the way they managed to maintain independence from everyone but the Mongols? Their laws, developed over centuries, independent of major foreign influence dominate more then one quarter of the worlds population. Their religions are just as significant as Judaism, and if you argue otherwise you're letting your bias influence you. Their independence has lasted more strongly then any other nation-state in the world.

The fact in this argument is that you can't handle the fact that there are more important nations on earth. Sure, the scriptures of your religion talk a lot about Israel as it was before it was destroyed, but those are only scriptures followed by 10-50 million adherents (sorry no idea on the actual number of Jews).

Asoka said:

Siam was never a southeast Asian SuperPower if anything its the Khmer, Siam writings and arts are from the Khmers.

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Not entirely correct. If anything it was Siam that nailed the coffin closed on the Khmer empire. Yes, Siamese art and architecture was originally taken from Khmer but has been modified by the Thais to quite a degree and is now distinct from it. The alphebet has some khmer influence but deffinately is its own. I can read Thai, Cant make a thing out of Khmer. The heartland of the Khmer empire (Modern country of Cambodia) was part of Thailand until 1890s when they gave that part of their EMPIRE to France to avoid war. Cambodia wouldn’t even be a country if France hadn’t colonized part of SE Asia ( Never did take over Siam though;Siam was never colinized)! After Ayuthaya (Siam) grew in power Khmer dropped until they really didnt any power and were mere vassals of Siam. If Siam had any competitor(s) as to the sole super power of SE Asia It was Burma and Vietnam NOT Khmer. Burma and Vietnam deserve their own Civs as well.

Heh, Angkor Wat was in Siam's Territory for a longer period of time than it was in Modern day Cambodia.

From Wikipedia-- The water-management apparatus also degenerated, meaning that harvests were reduced by floods or drought. While previously three rice harvests per years were possible - a substantial contribution to the prosperity and power of Kambuja - the declining harvests further weakened the empire. Its western neighbour, the first Thai kingdom of Sukhothai, was conquered by another Thai kingdom, Ayutthaya, in 1350. After 1352 there were several assaults on Kambuja, although these were repelled. In 1431, however, the superiority of Ayutthaya was too great, and the Thai army conquered Angkor.

After the taking of angkor Khmer was never again a rival to Siam in power.

Khmer was a Powerful Empire for 400-600 years. Siam was a Powerful empire for 700 years; Siam still exists today as Thailand. Exact same country, changed name and flag in the 30s.( many People want to change the name back BTW) Thailand today Is LIGHT years ahead of Cambodia in almost every measurable way, as it is ahead of every country in SE asia execpt for Malasia which it has a rough parity.

Really? Are they really that strong? I heard in 1979 some people said that only traffic jam in Bangkok could help them from being overrun by Vietnamese, no? And one of Cambodian provinces is Siam Riep, which means Siam the thief. What does this mean?

senor freebie said:

I didn't insult Israel. I was realistic, totally unlike you, in stating that China has brought more to the world. They also brought values, survived the times (rather then falling from a single civil war) and ended up now, one of the most powerful civilizations on earth. Not only that but we not only fight our wars based on their technology but we do it using the techniques of Sun Tzu.

So you're saying the country that wrote the military doctrine for 95% of the worlds militaries and created the technology that 99.9% use is of the same significant because they didn't take part in writing European laws?

What about the laws and values the Chinese developed? What about the religions they've founded or the way they managed to maintain independence from everyone but the Mongols? Their laws, developed over centuries, independent of major foreign influence dominate more then one quarter of the worlds population. Their religions are just as significant as Judaism, and if you argue otherwise you're letting your bias influence you. Their independence has lasted more strongly then any other nation-state in the world.

The fact in this argument is that you can't handle the fact that there are more important nations on earth. Sure, the scriptures of your religion talk a lot about Israel as it was before it was destroyed, but those are only scriptures followed by 10-50 million adherents (sorry no idea on the actual number of Jews).

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hihi, haha ok i'm not here to insult or wat, but the "scriptures" that jews use are more important than wat u think, firstly christianity and islam are partly based on it, e.g the part of abraham etc.. though they differ after that, so added all up, u get AT LEAST 2 billion believers for christians and numerous more for islam and judaism... lol isnt it? but anyway thats not the point, dun get it though anyways China is already in the game, why bother quarreling? since Israel isnt it, it'll be quite cool to see it inside wouldnt it? btw whether china or israel theyre all important.. btw China itself had fallen to plenty of conquerors and civil wars.. and if u really wan argue about religious stuff we could go a very very extremely long way, *since the chinese nv really came up laws like the hebrews/israelites.. so lets just leave it there since firaxis wouldnt like ppl quarrel bout the religious stuff etc etc..

oh ya, if u only look to importance of the civilization in history, then *pardon my ignorance* why the hell is mali inside? lol

p.s no offense really haha =)

yukazunori said:

oh ya, if u only look to importance of the civilization in history, then *pardon my ignorance* why the hell is mali inside? lol

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The Mali that existed in the time of Mansa Musa was a HUGE economic power and a great center of learning and scholarship. In fact, Mali's economy was so obscenely powerful that Mansa Musa singlehandedly destroyed the value of gold itself by spending so much of it when he made the Hajj.

So, when they needed a non-Mediterranean African civ, Mali is about as good as they get.

Xineoph said:

The Hebrews may not have brought technology, but they did bring in the morals, that define our laws today. Don't kill, Don't Steal, Judaism was the most liberal, and more or less still is the most liberal religion to date.

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Nonsense!

'Not killing' and 'not stealing' are the foundation of all organised societies everywhere. All Judaism brought to the table, and to be fair it's a biggie, was Thou Shalt Have No Other God Before Me.

The process by which the Israelites got a foothold in Canaan, and the measures they had to take to maintain their various cultural identities from that time, were anything but liberal. If the Israelites of the Old Testament had been any less ethnocentric, ruthless and fanatical, they would have disappeared from history just as Moab, Tyre and Kadesh did.

Judaism's monotheistic spinoffs added universalism to the mix, giving the world two of the least 'liberal' concoctions ever devised.

"Liberal"? What meanest thee? A liberal of yesteryear is a conservative of today. What does it matter if we give it a title of liberal or conservative or socialist? What matters is whether it is true. If the is no God, everything is permissible. Why else do you think that macro evolution is so popular, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

Older than Dirt said:

Why else do you think that macro evolution is so popular, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

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Aw crap, here we go again

Older than Dirt said:

"Liberal"? What meanest thee? A liberal of yesteryear is a conservative of today. What does it matter if we give it a title of liberal or conservative or socialist? What matters is whether it is true. If the is no God, everything is permissible. Why else do you think that macro evolution is so popular, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

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I think for OTDs sake we need a Luddite civ, with a tech tree that ends before biology.

Danghis Khan said:

I think for OTDs sake we need a Luddite civ, with a tech tree that ends before biology.

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Or perhaps even earlier, at astronomy.

I cant understand peoples feeling towards only well known Civs being included. I think a mixture of lesser known such as Kongo and Totlec with better known civs such as Carthage, the Maya and Scandanavia would be much more interesting. I think it would be fun to take over the world with someone such as Kongo.

BTW, I also think that if the Byzantine empire is added, it should be called the East Roman Empire, as this is what the empire truly was.