The Emperor Masters' Challenge 4 (Warlords v.208)

We'd either go for space race or diplomatic, though in view of our main objective the former is preferable.

Why stop trading with Saladin? It brings us good money and I don't see how the trades can help him in any significant way. I do think that some day he has to be cut down in size, though, probably with the help of Napoleon. After that we'd only really need to worry about HC. I suspect Ramesses will fizzle out in the future.

I've played till we captured Yayoi (which we razed, since it's useless). Will probably continue some time today.

I would say try to win without declaring war on Saladin to stay with the peaceful theme. See if you can keep Nappy on him to slow him down. Spies are an option if it becomes necessary to slow his spaceship building...

HC is troublesome...

I think you should have plenty of land to win a space race without any more major wars. Blanket everything with cottages, run emancipation, watch your GNP skyrocket. Try to keep Nappy and Saladin going at it, and keep an eye out for similar opportunities to sow discord on the other continent. Lookin' good so far.

peace,
lilnev

I've finished playing this round. Things seem to be going fine, although the future is still uncertain. I'll post the update later today or tomorrow.

And we're... back in the game. Can't wait for the update.

Round 8: 1525AD - 1610AD

It's not a long round this time, but much is accomplished that would hopefully cement our place in a peaceful space race in the future.

We made the trade I proposed at the end of the previous round:



Instead of getting Napoleon to adopt Representation, though, we made him adopt Free Market. The former was not a bad idea, since we'd then begin to accumulate more diplomatic plus points with him, but I decided that the latter's immediate benefits to our economy was of greater value.

Now that we have Scientific Method (which unfortunately obsoletes our GL), we could research Communism. I decided to do so right away, not for SP (which we might not be revolting to yet), but for the chance to build the Kremlin. Whether the wonder would truly be useful to us isn't exactly clear; we're stuck with Representation if we are to ensure Napoleon's loyalty in the future after either side adopts Free Religion, and we can't exactly rush buy spaceship parts. However, it may just help us nail the Space Elevator or rush buy units in case of emergency. And, moreover, since we have stone to help build it, why not?

On the next turn, the last Russian city on the continent fell:



Sandwiched between and culturally overwhelmed by two Arabian cities, it was worthless and was therefore razed.

Now the only city left to the Russians was Vladivostok to the west. Unfortunately, it was on an island and we had no means of getting our troops there to take it. The logistics involved in preparing for such an expedition were simply not worth our time and effort. WW was mounting and the only reason we had for capturing that final city was to get rid of the motherland unhappiness in former Russian cities. We could sign peace now, prepare and attack later, but now that Peter was Buddhist again, it would not be diplomatically wise to declare another war on him.

The alternative is to capitulate him. Before 2.08, this would be a stupid decision. However, now that the AI is less fussy about you having vassals and that there's a happiness bonus for having vassals, this decision makes sense. The extra happiness would help offset motherland unhappiness in conquered cities, and we don't need to be afraid of everybody being less happy with us while we subjugate the Russians forever.

Therefore, I proceeded to draw up the treaty:



Indeed, it turns out that none of the other civs are unhappy that we have a vassal now.

While checking out the diplomatic situation, I noticed that we could make a very tasty deal with HC:



Love thy enemies It did give him access to Emancipation, but Corporation (not obtainable from anyone else) and 500 gold was too tempting. I agreed to the deal. This would certainly help us keep up in tech.

And having cracked the whip for the last time in an otherwise starving Yakutsk, I decided it was time to switch civics:



Free Speech would give our new border cities some relief from the pressure of foreign culture while the extra commerce from towns is a bonus. Emancipation would help our cottages grow and cause our GNP to skyrocket. Just watch

Saladin paid us a visit soon after and told us how much he disliked Gandhi:



I wanted to make Gandhi our ally on the other continent so I refused. Our relations with Saladin would either remain relatively good or go downhill dramatically anyway, so this wouldn't really make a difference.

After Communism was discovered (the Indians beat us to it by a few turns, but they seemed to be losing a war with the Incas so they weren't likely to start on a wonder anytime soon), I decided to take Sisiutil's advice and go for Steel to build cannons. Having up-to-date siege units to help repel an invasion (either by Saladin or HC) made sense. We would also be able to build Drydocks for a decent navy to protect our coasts.

Then it was Ramesses' turn to come *****in' about somebody:



About our ally, at that. The diplomatic situation in this game is really complex and delicate. But I knew where our priorities lie, so this decision was easy to make. Despite our rebuff, Ramesses remained pleased, thanks to OR.

Suddenly, HC came to us with an offer:



A useless and outdated tech to buy 2 turns of research and some gold? Why not? I accepted gladly. The Inca dude is proving to be a capital fellow when it comes to trading. Almost made me forgive his sulking.

[to be continued in the next post]

Steel and gold for DR? Haven't both its wonders been built already? God bless the AI and its unfathomable obsession with Divine Right!

Seriously, this is the one reason I'll try to get DR in a trade--there'll be some backward civ out there willing to give up something worthwhile just to have it. Blake needs to tweak the AI on this, so it looks on DR once Islam is founded and the two wonders built the same way it now regards that world map you come peddling every other turn.

I think the AI made the trade because Steel was mostly researched already.

Darrell

[continued from previous post]

With a new military technology to back us (and our proxy) up, I decided it was time to rattle things up a bit:



I saw Napoleon march a nice little stack around and decided that he could use a little war to keep him busy. If he decides to ask us to join in, well, at least we have cannons to help us. And we might need to attack Saladin anyway. I'll tell you why later.

After Steel, we researched Steam Power to help our workers improve the land. Finding coal in our borders would also be nice. Indeed, coal was found near Pusan. That tech done, I considered what we should research next. Biology would be useful to grow our cities to their max sizes (which most of them are not quite reaching yet). By then we had two GSs sitting in our capital, waiting to lightbulb something. I had thought of using them to quickly grab Physics, but looking at the trading possibilities, I decided to do something quite outrageous. I used one of them to lightbulb a small part of Physics. Now that the value of that tech had dropped in the eyes of the AI, I traded for the rest of it:



Then I traded for Biology:



The second one, in particular, seemed like a lopsided trade, but at least we made more use of Steam Power by trading it for most of Physics earlier. And we got Biology immediately. And we still have 1 GS to lightbulb some other tech.

I think we stand to benefit from these deals. As it is, we're now on par with most of the AIs:



We have Steam Power on Napoleon and Gandhi. We could trade it to the latter for MT, but Napoleon hates him so it would almost certainly damage our relations with the French.

And this is where the round ends. We need to decide on what to research next. Assembly Line for factories and infantry? Railroads for infrastructure? Electricity for better windmills and watermills? Well, overall, I must say I'm optimistic about our teching ability.

In terms of power we're still lagging behind quite badly:



But I really don't know how we can help with this other than building tons of units and wasting large sums on their upkeep every turn. The AI seems to be building more units than ever in this version.

In terms of GNP, though, we're doing great:



Which is part of the reason for my optimism. We can only improve from here. The only worry is HC improving his economy as he consolidates his control over the Indian cities he captured (although he has taken only small ones so far).

The map of our continent:



Novgorod is doing well claiming the tiles around it. Yakutsk isn't, but perhaps it just needs more time. I think our empire is big enough. There's just one small problem. I'll get to it in a while.

The map of the other continent:



It's really quite small compared to ours. HC has taken a few Indian cities in the snow area west of Bangalore. What if he succeeds in conquering most of the Indian empire? That's an interesting question. That would certainly be a problem.

Now we come to the immediate problem facing us: There's no oil in our territory! That would be a grave strategic danger to us in the future. The nearest source is beside the Arabian border city of Muscat, and there's no chance of flipping that tile or the city. We might need to invade Arabia just for that source of oil. Ultimately, which do you think will undermine national security more in the long run: going to war for oil or going peaceful without oil? If we're going to invade, we should do it now while Saladin is occupied with the French. We have enough troops to capture at least Muscat quite easily.

I think you know what I'll say...

Heck, yes, take Muscat! Get your source of oil, which will be vital later in the game--you'll need fighters, bombers, and tanks to ward off interference from the AI.

(Off-topic: the Canada Mod includes an "oil sands" wonder, which gives you 5 oil resources if you build it--kind of like a strategic resource version of Broadway/Rock and Roll/Hollywood. A very peaceful (and suitably Canadian) option if you find yourself in this sitch. Too bad it's a mod...)

Next tech? I say Assembly Line for Infantry and a slight boost to your dangerously-low power rating. Infantry are a good defensive unit, relatively cheap, and they'll get your protective promotions. You can also start building factories. Once you have AL, then go after the more peaceful techs you mentioned--Railroad first, then Electricity.

It's vital that you keep Napoleon friendly--if he drops to "Pleased" or lower, it'll just be a matter of time before he invades you if the ratings stay as they are. Unfortunately, this means avoiding Free Religion for quite some time. But attacking Saladin would give you a nice mutual military struggle boost with Nappy.

Nice round. Diplomacy will be your best defence for the rest of the game--delicate as it is. I would suggest befriending the most powerful civs if possible. If you have to have enemies, better it be the weaker civs.

futurehermit said:

Nice round. Diplomacy will be your best defence for the rest of the game--delicate as it is. I would suggest befriending the most powerful civs if possible. If you have to have enemies, better it be the weaker civs.

Click to expand...

This is a very good point--your best chance of holding off Saladin and potentially Napoleon may be a Defensive Pact with a powerful civ.

I was wondering how you're standing in terms of productivity. I know that on Monarch some of the times I'm going for Space Race I'm building/upgrading units all over the place and I'm still not able to reach the first AIs power rating. And that with a whole continent at my disposal.

So yeah, best make use of that diplomacy, otherwise you'll most probably be crushed if a war comes your way. And yes, you need the oil but seeing the difference in power right now I'm really afraid of telling you to start the war now. Maybe wait for Infantry and hope that Nappy will still be at war by then?

Assembly Line, Assembly Line, Assembly Line. The end is coming quickly. Now's the time to get those factories and coal plants set up, along with observatories (required for laboratories). Then probably Artillery->Rocketry to get started on the Apollo Program, and see if you can pick up Electricity and Railroads in trade. Avoid the dead-end techs (Mass Media, Medicine, Fascism etc) that don't lead to a space ship part. How's the Ironworks coming along?

I would give Nappy several turns to chew up any standing armies that Saladin may have, before getting involved. If he asks you to join him, do. But I don't really think Oil is all that crucial -- infantry+artillery can put up a pretty stiff defense against anything short of modern armor (or lots of bombers, which the AI never seems to use), and you're not planning any large offensive wars. I agree with Sisiutil that keeping Nappy friendly is important, however, and that might mean joining the war.

peace,
lilnev

p.s. Try not to trade away Rocketry if you get it before the main space-race competitors. Building Apollo is one of the major bottlenecks, and the later they get started, the better.

Ok, a couple of questions:

1) What's up with no Oxford University? Your capital could really benefit from it, but you're missing two Seowons. Moscow and St Petersburg could both do it and you'd have the required number then. You also have stone so that will make Oxford a really fast build.

2) Why drydocks? Until you have oil your navy will be pretty bad anyway. I'd concentrate on land units instead. It's true that you'll be vulnerable on sea, but from the looks of it (productivity, power graph and positioning) Saladin could also throw enough units directly on land that you'd be in real trouble.

3) You have +1 with Nappy for "wisely chosing your civics". Is that getting you from Pleased to Friendly? If not, you should really consider going for Universal Suffrage, now that you have the Kremlin. You're doing ok in productivity despite being rated 5th (very close to 2nd, 3rd, 4th) and with factories online you should really consider building/buying a couple rounds of infantry, even if it sets you back a little in terms of research. Yes, they will cost you in upkeep, but right now you have next to nothing.

4) You need to reach Industrialism as fast as you can. If you have no Aluminium in your territory you might have to start another attack. With that in mind you really need the oil for some tanks.

The fact that we're not going for a militaristic victory (even potentially) means that we really need to use diplomacy for defense and concentrate primarily (notice I don't say totally) on science/production. Too much maintenance costs to hold down so many defensive units. If we can get a defensive pact with a powerful civ, more the better. But the key imo should be to use diplomacy to keep the peace. Build some units to defend against any Saladin attacks should we need to declare war if Nappy asks. But I wouldn't suggest mounting an offensive unless aluminum and/or oil is needed (as suggested we might get by without oil, but aluminum would be great). Science/production should be top priority and I agree: oxford, ironworks, etc. do it asap.

Idea: get Assembly Line, then buy factories as soon as you can. Running the slider at 0% for a couple of turns should give you enough gold. Yaroslavl' desperately needs a forge and a factory to run three engineers as it has next to no production right now. After you have factories online you can switch back to Representation if needed to boost your relations with Nappy.

Oh, and where are you going to put Ironworks? P'yongyang seems a good choice but I'm worried about it not being able to build the Space Elevator. Moscow would be the second choice if you go to State Property and workshop/watermill everything in site.

In fact, I do think Moscow is better for Ironworks. First you need to irrigate that rice since it isn't irrigated right now. Next, watermill the most you can, workshop the rest, except the cows, rice and one spices plantation. You should even consider waiting to build a Hydro Plant or the Three Gorges Dam in it to save some pollution. In State Property it will be a monster production city. Oh and since you're in Organized Religion, spread every religion to Moscow, you'll also need it for the happiness later. One more thing: for now Yaroslavl' could put its food to use by building a few workers that will be needed for railroads and turning Moscow into a production city.

I like the partial lightbulb of physics so you could get it from the Ai. This is overall a very successful trading strategy which can be applied in many situations. As for the research, while staying peaceful myself, i'd say go electricity -> radio ->computers -> rocketry->satelites->fiber optics. Trade for assembly line, using the same trick as you did with physics, steampower, railroad and artillery.After fiber optics you build the Internet while researching fission fusion refrigeration and Genetics. This will basically give you industrialization, plastics, robotics and some minor techs for free.

You're almost certainly alone on this tech line so you can trade more if you're so inclined. This strategy is slightly risky (no tanks) but relations are good at the moment.

Some good tips here. I forgot about the Oxford this round. But now that the smaller cities have grown, they should be able to build the remaining Seowons needed to build it soon. I was indeed thinking of building Ironworks in Pyongyang, but now that you guys mention it, I also think that Moscow is a better location, since we can probably build the Space Elevator there. The rice isn't irrigated? Didn't spot that. I'll check it out later.

Revolting to US (and SP) now might be good, while there's still the religion bonus to keep Napoleon friendly. On that note, I agree we should research Assembly Line now and buy us a couple of infantry, just in case. Our GS can lightbulb Electricity, so if two other civs decide to get it soon we can probably partially lightbulb it and then trade for it.

And now that I think of it, we can probably defend ourselves quite well with infantry, artillery, marines and, later, mech infantry. With Fission, we can start using uranium to build a modern navy. As such, we probably shouldn't go to war for the oil, unless Napoleon asks us to join in. Aluminium, though, would be a different matter. I really hope we have a source or two in our empire.

Dirk1302 said:

As for the research, while staying peaceful myself, i'd say go electricity -> radio ->computers -> rocketry->satelites->fiber optics. Trade for assembly line, using the same trick as you did with physics, steampower, railroad and artillery.After fiber optics you build the Internet while researching fission fusion refrigeration and Genetics. This will basically give you industrialization, plastics, robotics and some minor techs for free.

Click to expand...

But Fibre Optics also obsoletes the Kremlin. That's quite a big catch.