Post 1.61 Cottage spamming

In response to the recent queries, yes, I played all peace in these three games, which of course involves a lot of diplomacy. But if you establish open borders right away, trade techs and resources, and play your religious status--or lack of religious status--correctly, keeping the peace is not all that hard. I don't always give the AI everything they want. That would spoil tech trading. But I do sometimes bribe the AI when necessary.

When you turn the culture slider up, you can trade away all of your luxury resources since happiness is no longer an issue. That helps keep the peace too.

Regarding barbarians, the "no barbarians" option is acceptable for HOF games, so I usually take advantage of it. However, the AI settles terrain so quickly at Deity that fog of war very quickly evaporates, along with the barbarians.

EDIT: my statement above about "all peace" might seem to imply the "always peace" setting. I just meant that I always tried to keep the peace. The "always peace" setting is not allowed for HOF play.

I just saw your post, atrea.

The settings I used are:

Pangea, random shore shape, low sea level, temperate climate. The strategy could work with a different map than Pangea, but only if you still could establish contact with the AI for tech trading by the time you get alphabet. "Pressed" as a setting for coastal shape makes this strat harder, as it makes it more difficult to cut off the AI from available land. Of course, it's crucial that you not allow open borders with AI who you are trying to cut off.

Sometimes I DID of course get boxed in by the AI. I don't talk much about those games, though.

You will probably be disappointed in these games, as you are totally correct that I chose peaceful opponents (which of course has nothing to do with the question of how to get those six required cities). All of the HOF Deity-level games use strategic settings, though. For example, there is not a single HOF Deity win using a military strat without Prats or Quecha. Could it be done? Certainly, but not as fast. Just like I'm sure my peaceful strat could win with more war-like opponents (if I had an agressive neighbor, I would adopt his religion immediately if possible), but it would be harder to do.

I would suggest that using all random settings for an attempt at a Deity-level HOF game is a bit like beating your head against a wall. I do admire purists though!

Have you ever tried one of the gauntlets? ALL of the folks who excel in these types of games choose their settings carefully. That's just how it goes. I enjoy random settings too! It's just a different type of game with different challenges.

godotnut said:

I just saw your post, atrea.

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A sensation. This is the first time in all my posts that one uses the CORRECT form of the name (in Greek) when addressing to me . Do you happen to know Greek, or was it a lucky mistyping?

godotnut said:

You will probably be disappointed in these games, as you are totally correct that I chose peaceful opponents (which of course has nothing to do with the question of how to get those six required cities). All of the HOF Deity-level games use strategic settings, though. For example, there is not a single HOF Deity win using a military strat without Prats or Quecha. Could it be done? Certainly, but not as fast. Just like I'm sure my peaceful strat could win with more war-like opponents (if I had an agressive neighbor, I would adopt his religion immediately if possible), but it would be harder to do.

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You are right I am disappointed, but not from a purist point of view. It's just the fact that in ancient era you can't make sure of good relations to a warmonger because you can't always change the religion accordingly (there is a big chance of not having this religion in any of the cities). Not to mention that if you have, for example, Monty in one side and Izzy in the other, war is almost certain.

I generally don't have a big idea about HOF games, but I was just hoping this is a universal strategy. With the settings you describe (fewer opponents, no barbarians, specific opponents) I can't say it is. I have seen another flavor of this strategy, that uses Archipelago maps to achieve the same peaceful settings, but I'm equally sceptical about that.

I repeat that I don't want to devalue your achievement - any victory in higher levels needs extremely good play. I am just searching for a way to beat Deity in a more general way, and I think that the solution isn't in the direction you propose.

I am a bit bummed that it was no barbarians and no peace, but any win on deity is more than worth applauding, regardless of the doctored settings. Winning on Prince is a good game for me so I can't talk at all... I might have to try settings like that and see how high I can win, because a peaceful/building/teching game is my preferred game and what I'm better at.

cds0528, I assume you meant "all peace." For the record, using the always peace setting is NOT allowed in the HOF rules, and I didn't do that in these games.

Oh, and Atrea, I don't speak Greek, but I've had some Greek friends. I would still say it was luck, though, as I always mess those kinds of things up (you should hear me butcher verb tenses in my second language, French). I think the strategy I described could work with the standard number of random opponents--at least on a smaller map (the new HOF rules require more opponents, BTW). Like I said, I've never tried it above standard size map.

It would take A LOT of luck to win like this with all random settings, but if you allowed yourself to choose who you played as (I recommend Elizabeth) and played on a map where you could make early contact with the AI, I think it's viable, if rather challenging. But hell, it was plenty challenging with cherry-picked opponents! Finding yourself squeezed between Monty and Izzy would, of course, be a bummer.

Now you've made me want to try it! The thing is that it's all relative, as you could still get lucky and draw peaceful opponents. I think the reason that the HOF rules allow you to pick opponents is that it reduces the luck factor and evens the playing field for all players who choose to take advantage of what the HOF rules allow.

I was working on the following idea for a cultural win:

Leader: Saladin (you will see why in a while)
Settings: Some "peaceful" settings that allow at least 6 cities (even better some more), or alternatively an early war for the same number of cities.
Map: If you don't choose the opponents, definitely NOT Pangea.
Wonders: Pyramids for sure, hopefully also Stonehedge (Mysticism helps on that).

Idea: head for COL, switch to Caste System, and start mass production of Great Artists. Of course you will stay behind in tech, but the whole point is to get 12 GA until turn 240 (not very difficult with a Phi civ - you could even get more with a bit of luck). With all these GA, and the culture slider very high after Music, you would normally achieve an early cultural victory.

Spiritual will be used to swap between religions and civics to achieve peace (that's why I need Saladin). If you want, you can try it and tell me the impressions.

(My second variation is with Alex in Continents - kill early all the others in the continent you are and then proceed the GA way. But you said something about a peaceful way .)

That sounds like a reasonable strategy, and it could work. Here is what I would do if I were you (just my two cents).

First of all, be aware that in a peaceful world, the AI will launch their rocket on Deity level anytime between 1400 and 1600 (or even earlier perhaps). You need to finish early to win peacefully. If you can manipulate them into war with each other diplomatically, that's a good thing.

If you don't play pangea, make sure that you choose a map where you can make contact with at least a few civs by the time you get alphabet. You really need to trade techs to make decent headway.

Play at epic or marathon, and play with Elizabeth. Or, alternately, Mansa if you really value the Spiritual Trait. I think though that mathematically the cottage spam with a financial trait really outweighs the spiritual trait's advantages. For this strategy, the cheap temples are nice, but the lack of anarchy is only marginally useful. Ultimately, I just didn't NEED to switch civics and religions that much, though the spiritual trait has been buffed slightly by the extended anarchy periods at slower game speeds. A better question than whether or not spiritual is more valuable than financial is whether spiritual is more valuable than philosophical. I think a case could be made that it is, so if you want the spiritual, I'd use Mansa.

I depend on fully mature cottages (with a culture bar at 90-100%, shortly after liberalism) -- combined with the financial trait's bonus -- as the key to an early win. Your culture will mostly come from your cities' commerce once you make the leap to all cultural financial investment.

I totally agree with you about Great People though, and that's why Elizabeth is best (I think she is the best all around for all builder strats on Emporer or above). It's great to use a coastal city with seafood resources for a GP farm, saving your land for cottages. Mathematically, I've found that you get the most points out of them if you add them as super specialists up until about half-way through the game, then save the rest for one big bang at the end.

I think the most important resources, in order are: stone, marble, copper (because they allow for half-priced cathedrals, etc.) Stone in your capital is ideal.

Some questions that I always struggle with strategically are:

Is it worth it to go for Stonehenge? I tend to think usually not, so that I can expand more quickly, though it is awesome to have both Stonehenge and Pyramids.

When do I shut down research, right after Liberalism (for the civics), after Nationalism (after being able to build the hermitage), or after Printing Press (and the bonus to cottages)?

How can I maximize my tech trades while giving the AI as little gain as I can in their race to launch the ship?

What building order in my cities will get me there the fastest? This seems to vary from game to game more than I expected it would.

I would be interested to hear of your progress.

[P.S. Or you could just play as Ceasar and try to kick butt! ]