What makes the late game...

dreiche2 said:

Hm, I don't see how some bonuses make the late game significantly more fun...

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How do you mean? It's like saying that late game rituals or late game units don't make the game fun. I'm not sure where you're coming from. Do you always finish the game early or something?

I'm pretty sure what they're meaning is that late-game, you've already got the ability to promote units to your cool t4 uber-units, call down avatars, cast armageddon rituals, and other nifty, fun stuff... adding bonuses to late techs doesn't really add any additional fun, it just ramps up the power level.

TheCowSaysMoooo said:

I'm pretty sure what they're meaning is that late-game, you've already got the ability to promote units to your cool t4 uber-units, call down avatars, cast armageddon rituals, and other nifty, fun stuff... adding bonuses to late techs doesn't really add any additional fun, it just ramps up the power level.

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I see where you're coming from, but there's a big difference between giving a nifty economic building and giving a nifty tier-4 unit. In my current game, I've researched all of the economic techs. All that's left is Lames and Mithril Weapons, and other techs like those. 6 of my cities are building wealth, with the others still focusing on infrastructure. All of the AI Civs are at peace (though only a few are trading with each other), and there aren't any wars in sight.

I'm waiting for Rites of Oghma to finish, but it's projected to take 64 turns start-to-finish in my most productive city. Though I've expanded more than any other Civ, I have only six mana types in my whole empire. I've built the Tower of Divination (though I couldn't get a useful tech out of it), but the others don't seem to be within my grasp.

I have the highest cultural growth, but it'll still take a long time to reach the cultural limits for a victory. Same thing with time victory, it's too far off to consider it.

Though two of my nine rivals have been converted to the Order with me, the other Civs either have closed borders with me or have a holy city that will prevent their converting to my religion. Thus, religious victory is more or less impossible without getting Domination first.

Simply put, the end of the game is unaccountably dull. Having only one option (late game conquest) isn't the way things are supposed to go. Giving some sort of bonus for having a high research rate in the late game would be a nice first step to fleshing out the end game some more. These tier 4 units are awesome, but there comes a point when the solution lies elsewhere.

Chandrasekhar said:

No, you misunderstand me. It wouldn't just be "Hey, this tech will make me win, let's do it." or "I'm just going to gear my whole strategy towards tech'ing up, and all else be damned." This tech would take perhaps 150-200 turns to research, and I'm thinking that there might be some sort of global notification when a Civ started researching it (with the appropriate diplomacy modifiers). It would be suspensful, as you'd be watching a countdown timer tick down in your research bar, trying to reach the end first. Further, it would take long enough that other strategies would be viable for other Civs, like warring on the researching Civ, or trying to fufill some other victory condition.

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I really like this idea. It's a good builder victory, but at the same time forces you to build your troops and prepare for a one final defensive war. Reminds me of the victory condition idea I suggested sometime for FfH I, I think - a system that gives you increasing diplomatic penalties the closer you get to finishing your goal. Research 10% of the beakers and you get "-1 you're planning a super spell to finish us off" from everybody, then ever-increasing penalties the closer you to get to completion. Finally you're at the point where just about all the computer players will declare war on you just to prevent you from winning, while you're mounting a desperate defense to buy enough time to bring that spell to completion. Moreover, other AI players will probably be researching the spell as well, so the end game will end up as a huge all-out battle with everybody getting drawn into wars with each other.

Ahh... such a neat little apocalyptic scenario. I don't think anybody bothered to comment on it when I last suggested it, though.

Chandrasekhar said:

Simply put, the end of the game is unaccountably dull. Having only one option (late game conquest) isn't the way things are supposed to go. Giving some sort of bonus for having a high research rate in the late game would be a nice first step to fleshing out the end game some more. These tier 4 units are awesome, but there comes a point when the solution lies elsewhere.

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Being primarily a builder myself, I'll certainly agree that there seems to be an awful lot of conquest required to win a game of FfH in its current state. I'd really like to see a "true" builder or political victory condition or two added, but I agree with The Team's (tm) position that something like a space race victory retread seems wholly unsatisfying. I'm also very much looking forward to the quest-type victories that have been hinted at, but those are still well down the road... in the meantime, in the little gaming time I have, I'm doing more fiddling with maps/scenarios and just messing around with the new features as they're added, rather than trying to play a game to completion *shrug*

I do miss having a few perks for occasional techs (free great people, especially), and I definitely like the idea of adding bonuses to improvements/civics by researching techs... making the less useful improvements and civics more desireable after a certain point in the game, or prolonging the life of an old (and possibly nearly obsolete) favorite. But just adding GPP or other benefits generally reserved for civics/buildings/etc to some tech way down the tree doesn't really appeal to me.

As for your other suggestions... well, I guess I'll leave them to people more knowledgeable in the late game play to discuss .

Personally I think the only thing necessary to make the end game fun for non-conquerors would be to reform the Tower of Mastery victory. Instead of the Towers requiring the mana to be built, just give the owner of the mana a HUGE production bonus as Chandrasekhar suggests.

But in the meanwhile, to give the builders some reason to research all those late-game military techs, how about giving some builder advantage to all those buildings whose only use is to let you build three national units? Follow the example of the Machinists' Shop which gives +20% production.

Buildings that could use an additional benefit are:
Alchemy Lab: a mere +4 science isn't IMO enough to make me build it everywhere
Armourer: some production boost?
Bear Totem: culture bonus?
Bowyer: +10 Great Commander perhaps
Hidden Court: some trade bonus
Weapon Smith: production bonus too?

Didn't Kael say that "fire" is where the war scripts are really going to start happening? If so, I think this might be good, in addition to the diplomatic "-4 Is that a growing super-weapon in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?" type thing.

And I guess that some of the buildings that let you build t4 units might as well give some economic bonuses, too. I guess I also like the idea of some whole new buildings that can give bigger ones.

Chandrasekhar said:

A ritual that makes all good and evil Civs at war with each other?

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I like this one! Would be good if you are a neutral civ and want to start wars off!

Bad Player said:

I like this one! Would be good if you are a neutral civ and want to start wars off!

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If you are a neutral civ and want to start wars off, i suggest that mayhap you are NOT a neutral civ. .

Maybe only make the ritual available to either good or evil. (Good - Holy cause, unified effort). (Evil...well, its war, whats not to love?)
-Qes

Chandrasekhar said:

How do you mean? It's like saying that late game rituals or late game units don't make the game fun. I'm not sure where you're coming from. Do you always finish the game early or something?

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I was referring to the discussion about religions/buildings/techs giving additional boni like +gold, +hammers etc.

I'm not saying those are not possible changes, but surely they don't spice up the late game significantly.

I agree the end game can be somewhat dull, though, but I think there should rather be additional victory conditions and other "big" things happening (like the hell thing, for example).

About the victory condition you were discussing, maybe make it a combination builder/researcher + defensive war, like you try to finish some buiding/ritual/tech, but as soon as you start, *all* civs declare war on you automatically..

Probably that would fit well into the concept of "fire" and all the armageddon stuff. You cast a ritual that will give you ultimate power / save you from this world/ whatever, while the world descends into chaos, everyone tries to fight you, volcanoes rise, earthquakes, you name it....


edit: Kael probably would have to reveal what he had in mind with the armageddon clock etc. before we can discuss those things, though (hint hint )

Xuenay said:

I really like this idea. It's a good builder victory, but at the same time forces you to build your troops and prepare for a one final defensive war. Reminds me of the victory condition idea I suggested sometime for FfH I, I think - a system that gives you increasing diplomatic penalties the closer you get to finishing your goal. Research 10% of the beakers and you get "-1 you're planning a super spell to finish us off" from everybody, then ever-increasing penalties the closer you to get to completion. Finally you're at the point where just about all the computer players will declare war on you just to prevent you from winning, while you're mounting a desperate defense to buy enough time to bring that spell to completion. Moreover, other AI players will probably be researching the spell as well, so the end game will end up as a huge all-out battle with everybody getting drawn into wars with each other.

Ahh... such a neat little apocalyptic scenario. I don't think anybody bothered to comment on it when I last suggested it, though.

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In Master of Magic, there was a wonder/spell you could work on to take over the world and win. As soon as you started researching it all the other leaders declared war on you. I think that makes sense.. i wouldn't be just like "oh, you're making a spell to kill me and and everyone else... i am slightly miffed at you, but no war yet, ill wait til you're closer to my demise."

immediately once you start building it everyone should declare war on you, that would be an interesting endgame scenario.

QES said:

If you are a neutral civ and want to start wars off, i suggest that mayhap you are NOT a neutral civ. .

Maybe only make the ritual available to either good or evil. (Good - Holy cause, unified effort). (Evil...well, its war, whats not to love?)
-Qes

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How about neutral: Lots of money to be made pillaging.

One way to make the end happen would be a late ritual that gives everyone -1 diplomacy with everyone else. Every turn, from then on.

About the end-game tech/ritual/building, keep in mind that not all Civs are necessarily going to be wanting to "prevent" you from winning. Some might be convinced that they can win before you by another method, and some might rather see you win than another Civ that they don't like. In vanilla, it's not like all Civs declare war on you once you complete the Apollo Program, so I don't think it should necessarily be different here.

That said, as the tech/ritual/building gets closer to completion, and it becomes more clear that no one is likely to stop you from winning, the other Civs might become a bit more touchy (read: warlike).

Looked at the tech tree a bit. Tossing around some suggestions, dunno if these are any good.

Building changes:

Large Animal Stables - add 1 trade route.

Technology changes:

Mithril Working - Engineer specialists produce +1 hammer? Forges add an extra +20% production if the empire has Mithril?

Righteousness - Makes the Cultural Values/Religion civic add +15% production in cities with the state religion (makes Religion a slightly more viable civic even in the late game, represents devoted religious workers putting in extra effort)

Divine Essence - Reduces Public Healers to Medium maintenance.

Armageddon - Gives Sacrifice the Weak +2 Happy (The end times are coming... with doomsday cults springing up, the weak give their lives willingly).

Candidate techs for free great people to first discoverer:

Domesticate Camels: Great Merchant
Astronomy: Great Merchant or Great Prophet
Engineering: Great Engineer, duh.
Omniscience: Great Prophet?

Xuenay said:

Mithril Working - Engineer specialists produce +1 hammer? Forges add an extra +20% production if the empire has Mithril?

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Better would be +1 mine production IMO. Currently Forest + Lumbermill is better than a mine, in some situations (eg besides a river) even for Runes followers.

civs in civ4 are way too complacent, stalling a AI is very easy

Looked at the tech tree a bit. Tossing around some suggestions, dunno if these are any good.

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I really like the idea of improving civics later on.

Nikis-Knight said:

How about neutral: Lots of money to be made pillaging.

One way to make the end happen would be a late ritual that gives everyone -1 diplomacy with everyone else. Every turn, from then on.

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Ew. I like it. The slow degredation of civil discourse. There should be some "goodie=goodie" civ that could prevent this degredation though, as a righteous struggle.
-Qes

Another thought, as there was talk about religious 'upgrades' - adding the possibility for Treants to spawn when cities are attacked, or as stronger versions. Would help the "human players just go around the Ancient Forests" problem, as well as giving the Fellowship a nice defensive tech to look forward to. Not sure of what tech it would fit, though.

Nikis-Knight said:

One way to make the end happen would be a late ritual that gives everyone -1 diplomacy with everyone else. Every turn, from then on.

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Hee. This might be fun. (And of course there'd be a chance for a goody-two-shoes civ to stop it - just raze the city with the ritual. ) It very much feels like an Ashen Veil-specific thing to my eye, though the Sheaim should probably be given a chance to build it no matter what. (Given by a technology that requires either the Veil state religion or being the Sheaim?)