GOTM 22 Final Spoiler

Just to balance the criticism: I loved this GOTM. I loved this setting. It's very difficult, but not impossible. There is not much room for mistakes, especially not leaving the capital unprotected and loose by conquest after 20 turns, as I did :cry:

Still, I prefer this GOTM over most other GOTMs that I find dull after the initial catch-up phase (i.e. until you come to the point that you know you will win). I loved WOTM3 because it was constant struggle until the bitter end. I also loved the Warlords immortal game (WOTM9?) and the Vanilla Deity GOTM. Why? Because they are difficult from the start to the end.

Now, different players like different settings, so I'm not saying that all games should be this difficult. I'm just saying that I like it when the staff throws in difficult games. :goodjob:
 
This one was over so quickly for most people I have a tough time seeing where there would be too much learning going on in this one. Nice try...Better luck next time, staff.
Most GOTMs are over quickly for wimps like me, but I keep trying and learn a little bit each time. In this case I only played enough to be able to make sense of other peoples' comments, but it still helped.
 
Second try:

Conquest victory in 1334AD. Still, that's with occasional reloading to compensate careless mistakes, could I ever take better

care of my undefended cities and straying workers?

My thoughts on strategic points in these Roman pangaea, always war games (all of these is vanilla, since I don't own Warlords):

1. Starting research sequence. Although we are Rome and have the great Praetorians, we need defenders better than warrior before we get Iron Working. That means we must produce Axemen or Archers. And of course Axemen is better than archers. But since this is Always War+Raging Barbs, we don't have much time to stray around. So the starting research sequence should be

BW (copper in sight) - Economic research (Agriculture, AH, The Wheel, Pottery)
BW (copper not in sight) - Hunting - Archery - Economic research

2. Scouting. We only need to scout the region that we can put a settler to connect the important resources (bronze, iron, horse), that is not too large, about 5-6 tiles away from capital in each direction. Further scouting is useless, and greatly increase the risk to meet possible enemies. We can safely bet that there must be some bronze or iron in that region.

Furthermore, it seems that AI archers would be much inclined to enter your territory if you HAVE entered theirs, so it is important to keep the scouting warrior outside any AI's territory.

3. Initial defense on capital. Well, that killed quite a few players in this GOTM! Be sure to save the second warrior to defend the capital. If Mansa Musa is around, one warrior might not be enough to defend his skirmishers! So the third warrior must defend the capital as well. As a rule of thumb, only send out the initial warrior to scout and leave all other warriors in your own territory.

4. Worker and improvements. An irritating thing in this game is that there will be a lot of AI archers, starting to come at around 2500BC, to pillage any improvements in their sight. So, we must make sure that we have some defense on EVERY improvement and the worker! A good thing is, the AI "occasional pillagers" typically won't attack our troops, so a warrior on each improvement and the worker will be safe for quite some time.

5. Second phase of defense. At around 2000BC we will need to be able to build defenders better than warrior. It is necessary to pre-build the defender (Axeman or archer) for a few shields so we can get them in 1 turn when we are in urgent need, but sometimes we don't need to build them immediately. Workers maybe more important. Eventually in this phase of defense we would kill all daring intruders in our territory with our axemen or promoted archers (it is quite easy to get experience by making the archer to defend on a hill).

6. Raiding. After we have enough troops to defend our own territory, the most important thing is NOT to attack immediately!

Instead, it is raiding. Attacking a civ takes a large amount of troops and only cripples 1 civ. However, by sending out raiding parties of 1-2 axeman or 2 archers, we can simutaneously cripple 3-4 civs with the smallest amount of troops possible. The raiding parties' task is to pillage enemy resources, but in the case that they will risk their lifes in doing so, they may just stand in a position with great defensive value (forest or jungle hills) and discourage AI workers to come out and make any new improvements. Archers with guerilla II will do a great job on that. The raiding parties should be send out as early as possible, and successful raiding is the most important point to win this game, in my view.

7. Kill the first enemy. Now we need to take the lands of our first enemy. In GOTM 22, England is the unanimous choice. That reveals an important point in choosing the victim. We need to have a productive core that is almost free from enemy pillaging. The English peninsula in GOTM 22 makes a perfect choice for that.

8. Setup of our empire. Now we have got enough lands and 5-6 cities. That will be the backbone of the empire. It is the time for some setup. We will need:

1 economy city to produce enough money and research for us to get the important techs (Code of Laws and construction).
1-3 frontier cities that will have city walls and be heavily defended, along with active defenders to kill enemy pillagers.

The concept of "frontier cities" is very important in this game. These cities must be able to sustain themselves WITHOUT any improvements since their countrysides will be continously pillaged. They should have good defensive terrains and are used to hold enemy attacking waves outside our productive core. Every pillager must be killed before they reach the productive core.

We cannot rely on resources in the frontier cities. One of the mistakes I made in my GOTM 22 submit is to use the west desert iron as the sole iron source for quite a long time. So I had great troubles in keeping the iron supply line intact. In hindsight, I should have used England's iron and identify the desert city as a 'frontier city' which only serves for defense.

In the replay, I used Rome and the northern copper city as frontier cities for quite a long time, which turned out to be much better, although I cannot use Rome's gold for several centuries.

Other cities will serve as military production cities. They will sacrifice 2 pops every 15 turns to endlessly pop Praetorians ,Spearman, Catapults and Elephants. So each city need to have a granary and a barracks. Most of them will possibly need Obelisks. Our workers in this phase will chop the forests heavily to setup these production cities as quickly as possible. And our attack directions will be chosen so that we get more military production cities over time.

9. Research. Research is hard with a large army. For a very, very long time Construction is the last tech I am able to research. The sequence should always be Code of Laws first, Mathematics-Construction following so that we will not be bankrupt in researching Construction while paying the military upkeep.

10. Attack the enemies one by one. That is arguably the easiest part. The most important thing is to take care of our straying troops, straying workers and undefended cities (which, is possibly my weakest link). We will be attacking one enemy at a time and keeping all others under the gates of our frontier cities. Most captured cities will be razed, since in this game it will be very very hard to keep a captured city without building walls. And our economy won't allow us to keep too many cities. In my replay I have 10 at most, to go with about -20gpt in 0% science... Our lifes will be much easier when we have finished up 4 civs. Since at this time, our production power will be stronger than the remaining civs. Finally, we CAN conquer with Praetorians and Elephants!

Successful execution of this strategy made my life much easier in the replayed game. The statistics:
England eliminated in 640BC
Aztec eliminated in 155AD
China eliminated in 605AD
Mongolia eliminated in 935AD
France eliminated in 1256AD
Japan eliminated in 1298AD
German eliminated in 1328AD
Spain eliminated in 1328AD

Cities built: 3.
Cities razed: 40.

Kills:
185 Archers.
110 Chariots.
100 Axemen.
98 Swordsmen.
68 Spearmen.
38 Catapults.
33 Horse Archers.
28 Longbowmen.
26 Warriors.
18 Keshiks.
8 Jaguars.
3 War Elephants.

See, the number of killed HAs are much smaller than in the lost game. Successful raiding really does the job.
 

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Terrific post, Lawrence, thank you very much. When I'll have re-read your post 10 times I will be good enough to win a game as dificult as GOTM22 was. :goodjob:

Since I am a perfectionist I will try to point out a little detail that IMHO could be improved:

2. Scouting. We only need to scout the region that we can put a settler to connect the important resources (bronze, iron, horse), that is not too large, about 5-6 tiles away from capital in each direction. Further scouting is useless, and greatly increase the risk to meet possible enemies. We can safely bet that there must be some bronze or iron in that region.
(...)
7. Kill the first enemy. Now we need to take the lands of our first enemy. In GOTM 22, England is the unanimous choice. That reveals an important point in choosing the victim. We need to have a productive core that is almost free from enemy pillaging. The English peninsula in GOTM 22 makes a perfect choice for that.

I think Scouting shouldn't stop after 5-6 tiles. In my game I never scouted East, so I never identified England as the better enemy to take, I never knew they had iron, I never knew their land was a peninsula... Meeting the enemies sooner has no effect in the game: since it is pangea they will find you anyway and their units won't come until they get OB with each other.

Let me thank you again for sharing your great strategy.
 
Terrific post, Lawrence, thank you very much. When I'll have re-read your post 10 times I will be good enough to win a game as dificult as GOTM22 was. :goodjob:

Since I am a perfectionist I will try to point out a little detail that IMHO could be improved:



I think Scouting shouldn't stop after 5-6 tiles. In my game I never scouted East, so I never identified England as the better enemy to take, I never knew they had iron, I never knew their land was a peninsula... Meeting the enemies sooner has no effect in the game: since it is pangea they will find you anyway and their units won't come until they get OB with each other.

Let me thank you again for sharing your great strategy.

Maybe. Since this is based on a replay and I already know everything about the map (though I pretended not to know where the resources are), it could be true that more scouting is needed initially.

But I still think meeting the enemies later is possibly better since they might actually declare against each other before they meet you! Didn't happen in this map, but happened in my practice game. Also, your raiders can help you to map out much more enemy land than your scout.
 
Contender, conquest victory in 1442 AD

Tough game indeed. Could have won before 1400 if I hadn't been careless and wasted some units on an amphibious attack on Tokus last island city. Oh well, I wasn't really focused after almost 5400 years of constant war. I could also have won much earlier by domination, but conquest seemed more fitting. Besides, I wanted revenge. :D

Some brief stats (check the screenies for more)

Cities built: 2
Cities razed: 49 (I also kept 7)

Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPGCiv4ScreenShot0001.JPGCiv4ScreenShot0002.JPG

Btw, thanks for a very exciting game. :goodjob: Wasn't sure about the outcome until Isa discovered Alphabet sometime after 1000 AD and I found out she wouldn't get maces or conquistadors before I conquered her.
 
Way to go Gnejs! Thats a good game you played.

I was waiting for a few more results of people who managed to get on top of the AI early, like you and Dr Phil.

My only hope for an award this gotm is the highest number of units killed...

... ever. (1600ish!)
 
I think Scouting shouldn't stop after 5-6 tiles. In my game I never scouted East, so I never identified England as the better enemy to take, I never knew they had iron, I never knew their land was a peninsula... Meeting the enemies sooner has no effect in the game: since it is pangea they will find you anyway and their units won't come until they get OB with each other.
I beg to differ. I agree more with Lawrence on this. IT is true that the AIs find us eventually, but my feeling was the later the better. But anyway, I paid attention to where the AIs approached from, especially the very first ones and it was clear to me, maybe a lucky guess, but I don't think so, that England was close to the East and probably the only one to the E.
 
Congrats, Gnejs!!! If that took you 19 hours, I'm glad I quit. Would have taken me at least 75 hours, for sure... :goodjob:

Did you send out multiple pillagers or just slow conquest?
 
Congrats Gnejs! Great game!
Contender, conquest victory in 1442 AD

Tough game indeed. Could have won before 1400 if I hadn't been careless and wasted some units on an amphibious attack on Tokus last island city. Oh well, I wasn't really focused after almost 5400 years of constant war. I could also have won much earlier by domination, but conquest seemed more fitting. Besides, I wanted revenge. :D

Some brief stats (check the screenies for more)

Cities built: 2
Cities razed: 49 (I also kept 7)

View attachment 161017View attachment 161018View attachment 161019

Btw, thanks for a very exciting game. :goodjob: Wasn't sure about the outcome until Isa discovered Alphabet sometime after 1000 AD and I found out she wouldn't get maces or conquistadors before I conquered her.
 
Caesar retired in 1762. Rome had just learned Monarchy and declared Caesar the King. Feeling that a 5700-year run was good enough, Caesar decided to go out on top. It's good to be king, but let the replacement get his head on a pole!

I almost won this one. I could've won this one. I simply made too many mistakes. The biggest one was around 0 AD when we tried to expand through settlers just after capturing the Pyramids and switching to Police State. Sure, we had enough forces to defend the place in any other civ game, but this wasn't an ordinary game. My bad.

Still, after 500AD we had a strong and surviving empire. One by one we picked at Monty's cities in a 2 steps forward one step back kind of way until we had his original core and he had one town left. His core was very productive and produced a lot of prats and later crossbows, pikes, and elephants for us.

The campaign against China did not go so well. In theory it was the right idea but in practice... I really should have played a test game. Three seperate times over a 1500 year period we built up a big force to attack/pillage them. We made it as far as capturing the city south of Beijing and even pillaged all the towns and mines around their capitol for a very welcome income boost. But all three times we came with too few troops. Not too few for any 'normal' civ game, we'd have a dozen or more powerful units with flanking forces to hold off the other attackers, but it was never enough. Each time we were beaten back and China reclaimed her land. We should have built up a still larger force and a more solid defensive flank/wedge to insure we could keep what we captured. Even losing the Pyramids I think we could have succeeded this way. Drat!

Meanwhile the assault on Antium eventually became overwhelming. That iron town was lost and from then on the city of Rome itself was the front line of this war. On and on we held them off. But then it was Knights. Conquistadors. Musketmen. Our economy had been a wreck through all of history, so at 1762 we barely had Monarchy and Feudalism is 10 turns away. Rome has become just the main front, the AI is starting to penetrate our borders at all points. We're first in Manufacturing goods, first in Crop Yeild, and only 50 points out of first place in score. GNP is actually rising. We'd even managed to build the Great Lighthouse and the Colossus to prop up the economy and produced a great merchant. The empire still looks much as it did in 500AD, only with the addition of Aztec lands, but it won't last. We're being overwhelmed. It's really too bad. I could've won this one! :cry:

But oh well. Still a great game. Between this one and the Japan game we've had some very difficult GOTMs, and I like it! Sure, the 'easy' games are fun too, but a competition like the GOTM stays interesting by throwing stuff like this in once in a while.
 

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I have to add my name to the losers, despite not being able to submit due to comp problems.

I thought I was getting started OK--was just getting the iron hooked up with city 2 when disaster struck. I didn't see a barb was a pair and then got bad RNG and lost the city. I knew this was a tough one and that was probably it but I was planning on picking it up again when my comp blew.

I found this interesting and hope we get more unusual challenges. Much more interesting for me than racing to the finish in an easily won game.

Congrats to all the winners!
 
Congrats, Gnejs!!! If that took you 19 hours, I'm glad I quit. Would have taken me at least 75 hours, for sure... :goodjob:

Did you send out multiple pillagers or just slow conquest?

Does 2 prets counts as multiple? :D

I needed all troops I had for defense. Once I could spare some units I sent them to raze cities, not to pillage. At the end of the game the whole map was covered in developed tiles. I never had the time to stop and pillage anything...


Keys to my success:
1. Captured Karakorum fairly early. Whipped city walls the first turn out of anarchy, and stationed ~8 praetorians inside. The combined armies of Isa, Toku, Louis, Bismarck and partly Qin broke against those walls. I didn't lose a single unit and got my prets up to about 50 XP each... :eek:
Karakorum apparently was a magnet for them, so at Antium (Iron city in the desert) I only had to defend against the barbs and the odd AI chariot.

2. Cleared out the English first, followed by Monty. This let me concentrate the defenses to the western and northern front pretty early. Of course, raging barbs meant I still needed plenty of units in the homeland.

3. Little bit of luck. Rome popped Silver in one of the mines. :)

4. Understanding that this was a game of unit production and nothing else. Once I managed to develop my cities for high production I could start the advance on the AIs. I built the Pyramids in London in 830 AD and revolted to Police state of course.


While my veteran prets where defending at Karakorum I built up another army and went after Monty, then Qin. Once I captured Beijing and razed Shanghai the AIs started to divide their attention between Karakorum and Beijing. I needed fewer defenders in each citry and could start advancing on both fronts. From then it was just using the sheer momentum of large numbers of prets, catapults, and elephants.


The amount of units that the AIs could produce was impressive. Their research was not. I guess the combination of major unit upkeep, heavy war weariness, and city maintenance for some idiot cities on the eastern and southern island really killed their research...
 
I tip my hat to anyone who pulled off a win.

This game was a bit too hard for me. At least iron could have been a bit more within reach.

I tried a second time, trying not using too much knowledge about the terrain. This time I researched Hunting and Archery as the first time, but then instead of AH (which I ended up not using until much later anyway) I went for Bronze Working and Iron Working next. Bronze finishes a few turns before the settler does, so instead of the bountiful land all the way East I decide upon the lake-side North. It's closer by so it's probably easier to connect up and makes it easier to connect and defend bronze.

I manage to keep most of my improvements using some archers and axemen and decide to send a settler to connect the iron to the west by settling on top. I manage to build half a dozen of Praetorians but it gets harder and harder to defend my improvements and my connection to bronze and iron. Praetorians also don't do so well against axemen.

I can barely manage to keep iron connected but somehow I don't manage to build a raiding party to move out. When I see War Elephants appear and have my iron disconnected (again) I call it a day.

I don't complain about it being too hard. GOTM 21 was a bit too easy to be really challenging I thought. You can't please everyone.

I may give it one more try. Maybe instead of trying to settle on the iron in the desert it's better to try and capture the city with iron to the north of the lake? Or do both? The desert spot is so remote it's too hard to maintain the connection all the time. What I like about AW is that it's more like playing other humans, instead of exploiting knowledge about AI behaviour.
 
What I like about AW is that it's more like playing other humans, instead of exploiting knowledge about AI behaviour.
It was somewhat like playing a human because if made you honest about your military - you couldn't just ignore it completely until you wanted to attack. But tactically the AIs were as hopeless as ever - instead of pillaging your country to the bare land and effectively ending all your hopes, they'd throw wave after wave of suicidal troops to die at walled cities, failing to do any damage at all.
Of course you couldn't attack either - anything short of a full-scale invasion would've been slaughered soon after entering their borders by the multitude of the attack stacks of all the different nationalities moving towards your land. On the other hand, paying the upkeep on so many units seemed to make it really hard for the AIs to upgrade to longbows when they got the tech. I think I was still seeing lots of garrisoned archers 100 turns after that.
 
Just wanted to add my praises for those who won this game. Very impressive. :goodjob:

I retired with 4 cities (including Karakorum w/Pyramids) sometime after 1100AD because I didn't have time to finish and I doubt my position was strong enough for victory. It was a tale of slow and steady progress, but very slow... too slow...

Congrats to the victors!
 
Second try:

Conquest victory in 1334AD. Still, that's with occasional reloading to compensate careless mistakes, could I ever take better

care of my undefended cities and straying workers?

My thoughts on strategic points in these Roman pangaea, always war games (all of these is vanilla, since I don't own Warlords):

1. Starting research sequence. Although we are Rome and have the great Praetorians, we need defenders better than warrior before we get Iron Working. That means we must produce Axemen or Archers. And of course Axemen is better than archers. But since this is Always War+Raging Barbs, we don't have much time to stray around. So the starting research sequence should be

BW (copper in sight) - Economic research (Agriculture, AH, The Wheel, Pottery)
BW (copper not in sight) - Hunting - Archery - Economic research

2. Scouting. We only need to scout the region that we can put a settler to connect the important resources (bronze, iron, horse), that is not too large, about 5-6 tiles away from capital in each direction. Further scouting is useless, and greatly increase the risk to meet possible enemies. We can safely bet that there must be some bronze or iron in that region.

Furthermore, it seems that AI archers would be much inclined to enter your territory if you HAVE entered theirs, so it is important to keep the scouting warrior outside any AI's territory.

3. Initial defense on capital. Well, that killed quite a few players in this GOTM! Be sure to save the second warrior to defend the capital. If Mansa Musa is around, one warrior might not be enough to defend his skirmishers! So the third warrior must defend the capital as well. As a rule of thumb, only send out the initial warrior to scout and leave all other warriors in your own territory.

4. Worker and improvements. An irritating thing in this game is that there will be a lot of AI archers, starting to come at around 2500BC, to pillage any improvements in their sight. So, we must make sure that we have some defense on EVERY improvement and the worker! A good thing is, the AI "occasional pillagers" typically won't attack our troops, so a warrior on each improvement and the worker will be safe for quite some time.

5. Second phase of defense. At around 2000BC we will need to be able to build defenders better than warrior. It is necessary to pre-build the defender (Axeman or archer) for a few shields so we can get them in 1 turn when we are in urgent need, but sometimes we don't need to build them immediately. Workers maybe more important. Eventually in this phase of defense we would kill all daring intruders in our territory with our axemen or promoted archers (it is quite easy to get experience by making the archer to defend on a hill).

6. Raiding. After we have enough troops to defend our own territory, the most important thing is NOT to attack immediately!

Instead, it is raiding. Attacking a civ takes a large amount of troops and only cripples 1 civ. However, by sending out raiding parties of 1-2 axeman or 2 archers, we can simutaneously cripple 3-4 civs with the smallest amount of troops possible. The raiding parties' task is to pillage enemy resources, but in the case that they will risk their lifes in doing so, they may just stand in a position with great defensive value (forest or jungle hills) and discourage AI workers to come out and make any new improvements. Archers with guerilla II will do a great job on that. The raiding parties should be send out as early as possible, and successful raiding is the most important point to win this game, in my view.

7. Kill the first enemy. Now we need to take the lands of our first enemy. In GOTM 22, England is the unanimous choice. That reveals an important point in choosing the victim. We need to have a productive core that is almost free from enemy pillaging. The English peninsula in GOTM 22 makes a perfect choice for that.

8. Setup of our empire. Now we have got enough lands and 5-6 cities. That will be the backbone of the empire. It is the time for some setup. We will need:

1 economy city to produce enough money and research for us to get the important techs (Code of Laws and construction).
1-3 frontier cities that will have city walls and be heavily defended, along with active defenders to kill enemy pillagers.

The concept of "frontier cities" is very important in this game. These cities must be able to sustain themselves WITHOUT any improvements since their countrysides will be continously pillaged. They should have good defensive terrains and are used to hold enemy attacking waves outside our productive core. Every pillager must be killed before they reach the productive core.

We cannot rely on resources in the frontier cities. One of the mistakes I made in my GOTM 22 submit is to use the west desert iron as the sole iron source for quite a long time. So I had great troubles in keeping the iron supply line intact. In hindsight, I should have used England's iron and identify the desert city as a 'frontier city' which only serves for defense.

In the replay, I used Rome and the northern copper city as frontier cities for quite a long time, which turned out to be much better, although I cannot use Rome's gold for several centuries.

Other cities will serve as military production cities. They will sacrifice 2 pops every 15 turns to endlessly pop Praetorians ,Spearman, Catapults and Elephants. So each city need to have a granary and a barracks. Most of them will possibly need Obelisks. Our workers in this phase will chop the forests heavily to setup these production cities as quickly as possible. And our attack directions will be chosen so that we get more military production cities over time.

9. Research. Research is hard with a large army. For a very, very long time Construction is the last tech I am able to research. The sequence should always be Code of Laws first, Mathematics-Construction following so that we will not be bankrupt in researching Construction while paying the military upkeep.

10. Attack the enemies one by one. That is arguably the easiest part. The most important thing is to take care of our straying troops, straying workers and undefended cities (which, is possibly my weakest link). We will be attacking one enemy at a time and keeping all others under the gates of our frontier cities. Most captured cities will be razed, since in this game it will be very very hard to keep a captured city without building walls. And our economy won't allow us to keep too many cities. In my replay I have 10 at most, to go with about -20gpt in 0% science... Our lifes will be much easier when we have finished up 4 civs. Since at this time, our production power will be stronger than the remaining civs. Finally, we CAN conquer with Praetorians and Elephants!

Successful execution of this strategy made my life much easier in the replayed game. The statistics:
England eliminated in 640BC
Aztec eliminated in 155AD
China eliminated in 605AD
Mongolia eliminated in 935AD
France eliminated in 1256AD
Japan eliminated in 1298AD
German eliminated in 1328AD
Spain eliminated in 1328AD

Cities built: 3.
Cities razed: 40.

Kills:
185 Archers.
110 Chariots.
100 Axemen.
98 Swordsmen.
68 Spearmen.
38 Catapults.
33 Horse Archers.
28 Longbowmen.
26 Warriors.
18 Keshiks.
8 Jaguars.
3 War Elephants.

See, the number of killed HAs are much smaller than in the lost game. Successful raiding really does the job.
Great Post Lawrence! Tons of good observations.

I tip all had all won this one.
 
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