CIV103: The Espionage Economy at Prince Level

Since it seems its just the 2 of you on a continent, you may have another just south of you, so try using a work boat to contact other civs if you can.

If not, DON'T infiltrate Villhem with any great spies...wasted, as has been said. Beeline to optics, consider Vilhem a corpse, and treat accordingly, pick over his bones for what you can, but contact other civs for espionage.

Use your UU and send the spies over on missions...they'll die, or come home covered in glory.

Workboats, to scout the southern parts of the continent, Galley's for rest, if no one, OPTICS is the path....

P.S. If you kill Vilhem EARLY. Hmm What happens to the Espionage points you now accumulate, are they banked for the first contact, do they get wasted?
If wasted, seems like you may want to hold off on buildings/specialists, or would you build them and first contact, BAMM 20 points + per turn..is applied

I'm pretty sure that you still make EPs with no one to apply them to, just that you don't get to use them.

Say I generate 1000 EPS after killing Willem, but before meeting anyone else. I don't get to use them, but I did still generate the 1000 EPs (they will be there on the espionage graph). This is not a total loss ... AFAIK, everything you do with Espionage is dependent on the ratio of total EPs generated between you and your opponent. This is not EPs generated against that opponent, but the total generated in the game, regardless of which, if any, opponent they are applied to.

Willem being financial means there is a good possibility he will be a good target for tech stealing going forward.

Assuming it is just you and him, if you can keep good relations with him and split the land with him then you can comfortably keep tech stealing from him while using an optics beeline to send both spies and military overseas. Ideally Willem would be the tech leader and then you would use your tech edge to beat up on backwards opponents overseas.

However, with 5 civs over there tech trading it is probable that he won't be the tech leader. In that case it might be better to take Willem out, find a buddy tech leader overseas and then invade the backwards civs. The odds of all 5 civs being happy trading buddies is not great (although they could all be buddhist if you and Willem keep founding the religions).

Basically, you want to identify the tech leader as soon as possible (optics), buddy up with him, steal his techs, and then beat up on anyone who's backwards.

Nice start.

William may or may not be a pain to diplomatically deal with, you may find yourself peacefully teching with him or at each other's throat. Getting him to your religion is important and I would consider that he likely will get the Schwandolyn Palace and switch to FR.

That said I think you should consider using the first Great Spy on scottland yard rather than saving it or sending it off into William's lands.

I've played some of round 2, and have completed scouting the continent other than Willem's land. There is very little land West of Lisbon, and no sign of any land mass reachable pre-optics.

I can't see Willem being of great use. He won't have much land after I take my share. I can probably steal from him a bit to fill in a few techs, but if I do so, it will delay reaching optics on my own. My first instinct is to use the Great Spy that will show up on turn 100 for Scotland Yard, probably in the capital to double the Palce EPs, and since the capital will run a spy specialist as soon as I get CoL and a courthouse. But an infiltration mission on Willem could also be reasonable, allowing me to steal techs while I keep the science slider high.

I think the tech path is to grab AH, Agr, Pottery, Priesthood, and Monarchy for Hereditary Rule, then head for Optics. Once Willem is scouted out, we can talk about whether to keep him around or not.

William can tech pretty well if he turtles down with limited realestate. You may want to keep him alive, he should be easy to eliminate if need be later, at least once you find some other AIs to spy on.

You could vassalise him and then direct his research. If he won't trade with you then you can always steal the tech . Until you meet other civs you will be putting all your EPs against him anyway. That could be a revolutionary way to gain extra research without having to pay maintenance. A vassal can be useful in war, if you keep his army up to date, and is a free +1 happiness and a source of gold for you, if you sell your spare resources to him. The downside will be his cultural interference and his dumb colonising.

To vassalize Willem you have to declare war on him and knock him down to size so his research will be severely stunted. Also, you can't vassalize him for a while. Seems like an unnecessary step to me. Just keep him around as a neighbor until somebody more useful comes within reach of your spies, then claim the entire continent as your own. I wouldn't waste the great spy on Willem. Go with your gut xanadux, build Scotland Yard and you'll have all the EPs you need in no time with the ability to create more EPs later on.

I like the proposed tech path. Alphabet is somewhere in there too right? On a totally different note, the area around your capital is ridiculously cottage friendly. Very nice. OTOH you're stuck on a smallish continent with only one other civ... so I guess it evens out. This doesn't look to be turning into the ideal EE start, but I guess it just goes to show that where there's a will, there's a way. I can't wait to see the procession of caravels carting spies to the next continent over.

Daedal said:

To vassalize Willem you have to declare war on him and knock him down to size so his research will be severely stunted. Also, you can't vassalize him for a while. Seems like an unnecessary step to me. Just keep him around as a neighbor until somebody more useful comes within reach of your spies, then claim the entire continent as your own. I wouldn't waste the great spy on Willem. Go with your gut xanadux, build Scotland Yard and you'll have all the EPs you need in no time with the ability to create more EPs later on.

I like the proposed tech path. Alphabet is somewhere in there too right? On a totally different note, the area around your capital is ridiculously cottage friendly. Very nice. OTOH you're stuck on a smallish continent with only one other civ... so I guess it evens out. This doesn't look to be turning into the ideal EE start, but I guess it just goes to show that where there's a will, there's a way. I can't wait to see the procession of caravels carting spies to the next continent over.

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The eventual carrack spam will be fun.

As for Willem, I am going to wait and see what develops. He won't be a problem ... I'll definitely have enough military to take care of that. With the solid production of the capital, commerce from the rivers and coast, Hereditary Rule and being Expansive, this should be a good demonstration of massive early vertical expansion. I plan on having some pretty big cities in the early ADs.

It is nice land around the capital. City 2 is going on top of the spices 2s of the cows, grabbing 2 FP, cows, rice, copper, and lots of river tiles. City 3 will be 1N of the rice, also getting cows and 3 elephants. Both of these will be cottaged up. There is room for a filler city between the 2 to work the remaining grassland river tiles. Another city on that peninsula for the clams, and a couple NW of the capital. Eventually, a city A few squares east of the copper will be a very good production city (after Willem is eventually dealt with). Eventually Willem will die. There just isn't enough room for the 2 of us.

As for getting Alphabet, I will probably delay this to the point that spies will be useful. If Willem researches some stuff I want, all the better, and I will get alphabet. If he is slow to research, Alphabet will be delayed.

One argument for killing Willem, or at least having a lot of wars with him is the Imperialistic trait. It would be very nice to have a great general settled with vassalage and theocracy to produce navigation1 carracks. 5 move carracks if I prove the world is round.

Looks like optics + killing William is ideal. Kinda too bad that you didn't start with more civs on your continent cuz that means that it will delay the start of the EE in your game really.

futurehermit said:

Looks like optics + killing William is ideal. Kinda too bad that you didn't start with more civs on your continent cuz that means that it will delay the start of the EE in your game really.

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I agree, and depending how this game goes, I may play a CIV103 take 2 ensuring at least 2 civs on the starting land mass. But regardless of the non-ideal start, I think this will be an instructive game.

Round 2, Turns 51-101, 2000BC to 350BC

In this round, the 2 good city sites are founded towards Willem, blocking most of the continent unless Willem wants to go through the icy wasteland. I finish researching worker techs and tech Monarchy for Hereditary Rule. The 2 new cities are being developed primarily with cottages. After the settlers, Lisbon devotes itself to some needed workers and military.

Turn 54 Settler completed in Lisbon, start on warrior

Turn 55 Wheel Completed, start on Agriculture. Warrior completed, start on Settler.

Turn 57 Oporto founded on the northern of the 2 spice tiles E of Lisbon. Claims Rice, Cows, Copper, and 2 flood plains. Will some day be a monster city. Starts on monument.

Turn 60 Settler completed in Lisbon, start on Barracks. Agriculture completed, start on AH. The workers have been building roads towards Oporto, and one has doubled back to road the copper while the other irrigates the rice.

Turn 62 Guimares founded 1N of rice SE of Oporto, with rice, cows, and 3 jumbos. Starts on monument.

Turn 64 Barracks completed in Lisbon, start on axeman. I convert to Judaism to raise happy cap.

Turn 68 Axeman completed in Lisbon, start on Axeman. Judaism spreads to Oporto.

Turn 69 monument completed in Oporto (helped by a chop), starts on warrior. AH completed, start on Hunting for Ivory camps. Perhaps I should have reversed this tech order to make AH cheaper, all 3 cities have cows to improve, but Opporto and Guimaraes require a border pop.

Turn 70 Axeman completed in Lisbon, start on worker.

Turn 73 Hunting completed, start on Pottery. Worker completed in Lisbon, start on worker.

Turn 76 Worker completed in Lisbon, start on Axeman. Change civics to Organized Religion. I should have done this after converting to Judaism.

Turn 79 Pottery completed, start on Priesthood. Judaism spreads to Guimares. Workers start to cottage spam Oporto.

Turn 81 Granary completed in Lisbon, start on Walls. Monument completed in Guimares, start on Granary.

Turn 83 Priesthood completed, start on Monarchy.

Turn 84 Walls completed in Lisbon, start on Oracle (8 turns). Spearman completed in Oporto, start on Granary.

Turn 87 Granary completed in Guimares, start on Jewish Temple.

Turn 89 the Oracle built in a far away land. Lisbon gets about 100 gold and switches to Jewish Temple. Oporto completes granary and starts on temple.

Turn 92 Temple completed in Lisbon, start on Work Boat. Willem has 3 turns left on Mathematics. Willem has founded The Hague 4 tiles E of Oporto, and 5 tiles N of Guimares. I’ll need to prioritize some culture buildings, especially in Oporto. Willem has axemen, so he has copper or iron. I sign an OB agreement with him to scout him out.

Turn 94 Lisbon completes Work Boat and starts on axemen. Oporto completes temple and starts on barracks.

Turn 96 Lisbon completes axeman and starts on a Jewish Missionary for The Hague. Guimares completes temple and starts on barracks. Willem starts researching Construction. He also has swordsmen, and therefore Iron.

Turn 98 Lisbon completes missionary and starts on axeman. Oporto completes barracks, starts on axeman. Hereditary Rule completed, start on Meditation for Monasteries. Revolt to Hereditary Rule.

Turn 101 Great Spy born in Lisbon. Guimares finishes Barracks and starts on axeman. My missionary spreads Judaism to The Hague. End of Round.

Screenshots and comments coming soon.

Save:

End of Round 2 save

City pics:

Lisbon:



Opporto:



Guimaraes:



Willem's land:



The area NW of Lisbon:



Willem has corn, crabs, and iron in his capital. We will have to weigh the benefits of keeping Willem around for stealing techs against the benefits of these resources. I would love to have +3 health per city, +4 for coastal cities. Plus it's a fine city location.

Opporto is going to have to build culture soon. In the last 6 turns or so, culture on the tiles in both The Hague and Opporto's FCs has risen from 9% dutch to 25% dutch. Meditation and Writing will soon be in for a monastery and library.

Willem does not have alphabet, but does have IW (I've seen swordsmen), Writing (we have OB), sailing (2 food coastal tiles), and I know from espionage that he has mathematics and is working on construction. Math and construction would be nice to steal, and hopefully he grabs currency and/or CoL.

A great spy has been born. The question in my mind is whether to build Scotland Yard in Opporto or in the capital. Opporto will soon surpass Lisbon in commerce and is almost equal now. Lisbon has the palace. It depends on an assessment of where the Espionage slider is likely to be over the next 100 turns. Unless I get courthouses for spy specialists, it will be 100 more turns to the next Great Spy.

Other issues:

The rest of the far north needs to be scouted to see if there is silver up there. If so, a silver/fur city should be founded sooner rather than later. The axe that scouted Dutch lands is heading across the North now. The doublefish cow city NW of Lisbon needs to be founded. The clam city on the peninsula could be founded, plus a filler between Opporto and Guimares to work more cottages. Another worker or 2 might be in order as well.

In Opporto, I've roaded the forests in preparation for clearing them for cottages. I wanted to wait to chop to get the monastery and library quicker. Temple of Artemis is also a possibility for culture. But it comes with a free priest, and would virtually guarantee that my next Great Person would be either a merchant or Priest, which in general isn't bad, but puts my next Great Spy as much as 50 more turns away.

Tech-wise, finishing meditation and then getting writing are clear. After that, Alphabet is a priority, but perhaps sailing should be researched first. Sailing is too cheap to be worth stealing, and allows useful lighthouses. Also, without it, I can't defend Lisbon's clams from barbarian galleys. I am leaning towards Sailing before Alphabet.

Nice so far. Does scottland yard have any culture with it? If so definitley Opporto. If not, I still say Opporto.

Does the AI even tech remotely fast enough to run espionage economy on prince? :S

oyzar said:

Does the AI even tech remotely fast enough to run espionage economy on prince? :S

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Well, the point is simply to win and with an espionage economy at any level you should always be at tech parity with the tech leader because you are stealing all of his techs.

So, you might tech slower on prince, but as long as you are always at tech parity with the tech leader you should always be able to beat up on backwards civs.

I think the goal of the EE at any skill level should be to discourage trading between the tech leaders and those who are backwards to widen the tech disparity as much as possible to widen the window of opportunity to beat up on those who are backwards.

You would only challenge the tech leaders once they are the only ones left and by that point your empire should be > theirs and therefore at tech parity you can still outproduce them and win (accompanied by all the damage you can do with your spies to them)

If Willem already has so many techs on you wouldn't it be just better to steal them right now and get the most out of the spy? It will give you a giant leap forward in teching. Construction will mean WE and willem might have little against those. Damn nice cities though.

I think war with Willem seems inevitable at this point. Stealing some techs could still be an option first, but I wouldn't use the GSp to infiltrate, just use scotland yard and regular esp points.

I'm thinking Lisbon is best for the Scotland Yard. It will be some turns (perhaps 20 or so) before I have spies, and I see no reason to start on Espionage spending before then. It may even be reasonable to self-research Metal Casting as well for forges and triremes. With about 30% going to gold, and the delay until the EP slider is moved up, it will take quite a while for Opporto to compensate for the immediate +4 EP that will come from Scotland Yard in Lisbon.

Willem will die before too long ... I am thinking shortly after I get optics so that I can make use of any EPs against him. Capturing Amsterdam would be very nice for its resources.

It would be nice to get the Colossus and Great Lighthouse, but I wonder if the GP pollution is worth it. Each Great Merchant generated means many turns that another city is deprived of +100% EPs. Unless I capture Amsterdam very soon, Lisbon is the only real possibility for these wonders, and I could end up without another Great Spy for hundreds of turns if unlucky. The colossus in the long run might be worth 20 extra commerce/turn, and maybe only 4 or 5 immediately. Not getting a Great Spy would cost me at least 20 EP/turn. I'm leaning against these wonders for this reason, but MC would still be nice for Triremes and forges.

Infiltrate with the first gspy? Better to do that with the fourth or fifth, or last.. or never..
Those 100% from SY are going to produce way more points before this game is over.

Edit: If you can get a little production going in your other cities you could try to spread the wonders out so that you keep Lisbon unpolluted. They might catch up for a gp but after that and once you have a courthouse in Lisbon you should be fine.