US Army WWI

World War I was marked by consistent stupidity on all sides. I'm usually surprised when they do something intelligent instead. For example, what would have been smart would have been to deny the existence of the telegram and claim it was a British forgery. What they did was admit it was genuine.
 
It was Woodrow Wilson's opinions that pushed the U.S. to be closely tied with the Entente.
I believe there were also strong economic motives throughout the country, both with potential profits and money already owed by the British and French.

As for the Zimmerman Telegram, I don't think it was particularly stupid. I think the Germans saw the writing on the wall and figured it was fairly certain that the US would intervene and so attempted to create a distraction.
 
World War I-era history is not really my specialty, so I can't speak much about the legitimacy of the Zimmerman Telegram. I study medieval history, so my general standard for determining if something is real is by asking, "would its alleged author be stupid enough to compose this document?"
I think you'll find you'll be amazed at what people are stupid enough to do. I mean, Such standard puts doubt on the existence of the whole war...
 
As for the Zimmerman Telegram, I don't think it was particularly stupid. I think the Germans saw the writing on the wall and figured it was fairly certain that the US would intervene and so attempted to create a distraction.

There was no way in hell Mexico would lift a finger against the U.S. Even if the telegram weren't intercepted, it's possible that Mexico would've just revealed it to the White House in order to improve their own relations.

Germany had no good cause to intentionally inflame the most powerful nation in the world. Even though the U.S. was already a de facto member of the Entente, there was always the possibility that they wouldn't send an expeditionary force; thus the German High Command should've appeased America in any way it could.
 
I think unrestricted submarine warfare already marked an end to any attempts to appease to the US and teh telegram was more out of desparation.
 
I heard or read somewhere that the US had a really small and insignificant army at the beginning of WWI. Is this true? Thanks.

Yes, US standing forces were basically insignifigant, and few had even arrived on the front lines when the last major German offensive (the Spring Offensive) was broken, which basically spelled the inevitable end for Germany. Moreover American forces were woefully outdated, still fighting in a pre-1914 manner absent most of the advances in doctrine that had occurred over the course of the war. This is the major reason WW1 doesn't really resonate with Americans as it does in the UK, Commonwealth countries, France etc; they just didn't play much of a role and so the event didn't impact public consciousness that much, except, of course, the U-Boat war.

However, despite not having been involved all that much, the impact of US participation was extremely profound, it completely changed the war as soon as it was announced.

The USA had vast, vast reserves of manpower and industrial output - and of course it wouldn't have taken them long to catch up in terms of doctrine and equipment. They were fresh, with millions of men capable of taking up arms, a basically limitless supply of potential soldiers relative to the shattered European generation of young men that were fighting out the last chapter of the war. Their soldiers were also well-fed and healthy, something that German troops living on sawdust-bread (and starvation rations of that, even) were not. Had the war lasted a bit longer, the US would have been a super-juggernaut rampaging all over the Central Powers' front lines.

The irony here is that it was American entry that hastened the end of the war before the US could really build up to the role it might have had. As soon as the Americans entered, Germany realized they had to win Europe straightaway and deny the Western Powers the ability to land before the Americans could pour a flood of men and materials into Europe. So they gambled everything in the Spring Offensive, ran their forces into the ground trying to reach the Channel, and wasted the last of their irreplaceable veteran forces and experienced officers in a failed effort. The Allies lost a lot too, but since the Germans had failed to secure the Channel ports, all the Allied losses would be made good by American replacements in a short time - while the Germans simply could never recover.
 
say1988 said:
I think unrestricted submarine warfare already marked an end to any attempts to appease to the US and teh telegram was more out of desparation.

The Germans were banking that they could win the war before America had sufficient cause to enter the war, and even if they couldn't before then they were of the opinion that for America to mobilize sufficiently (if it could at all) from a standing start would take a sufficiently long period of time that the additional damage done to Britain would outweigh any possible upside for the allies as a whole. Grim calculus and erroneous in retrospect but I don't think it was fundamentally flawed when that decision was made. As it turns out significant numbers of America troops did reach Europe but they had little effect on the outcome of the war which was largely decided in that intermediate period between American entry and American boots beginning to hit the ground.
 
World War I was marked by consistent stupidity on all sides. I'm usually surprised when they do something intelligent instead.
Hindsight is 20/20.
 
Been reading The Guns of August these past few weeks, and it's very true. It consistently astounds me how idiotic the whole thing was. The book says that von Moltke himself said that the war would probably last several years at the least, that the war would not be a repeat of 1870, and it would continue until one side's resources and manpower were totally expended, and yet as soon as he was put in charge, he seems to have thrown all of that out the window.

Oh, and I don't feel a need to mention le cran.
 
Owen Glyndwr said:
Been reading The Guns of August these past few weeks, and it's very true.

There's your problem.

Owen Glyndwr said:
It consistently astounds me how idiotic the whole thing was.

Examples?

Owen Glyndwr said:
The book says that von Moltke himself said that the war would probably last several years at the least, that the war would not be a repeat of 1870, and it would continue until one side's resources and manpower were totally expended, and yet as soon as he was put in charge, he seems to have thrown all of that out the window.

That doesn't make an iota of sense as a criticism except with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

Basically you have four options.

Insight: Prescient. Acts on it.
Insight: Not Prescient. Acts on it.
Insight: Prescient: Doesn't act on it.
Insight: Not Prescient. Doesn't act on it.

How do you know you of all people were right? Besides, three of those options make your look like an idiot in the benefit of hindsight.
 
There's your problem.

I still don't understand why everyone on this forum hates this book. I can't find any website denying the book's credibility, and the book is well sourced.



Examples?

Dude, it was a war in which battle was for the most part conducted by sending gobs and gobs of troops head on into a machine gun nest. Here's a quote from the book, which I think well demonstrates that the war was idiotic:

Again and again the Germans returned to assault, spedning lives like bullets in the knowledge of plentiful reserves to make up the losses. 'They made no attempt at deploying,' a Belgian officer described it later, 'but came on life after line, almost shoulder to shoulder, until as we shot them down, the fallen were heaped on top of each other in an awful barricade of dead and wounded that threatened to mask our guns and cause us trouble. So high did the barricade become that we did not know whether to fire through it or go out and clear openings with our hands.'"

Even without hindsight, that would seem pretty idiotic to me.

That doesn't make an iota of sense as a criticism except with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

...except the man knew, at least to some extent, that the war would not be quick as he kept emphasizing in the lead up to the war...doesn't sound like hindsight to me :crazyeye:

How do you know you of all people were right? Besides, three of those options make your look like an idiot in the benefit of hindsight.

This is why I never post on the history forum...
 
I still don't understand why everyone on this forum hates this book. I can't find any website denying the book's credibility, and the book is well sourced.
Couple of reasons.

First off, the book is part of that old-school...school that emphasized the Kaiser's role in diplomacy. (This school includes one of my professors. Which sucks.) Wilhelm, it is said, destroyed the European world order out of a combination of Freudian pique, a Napoleonic complex vis-a-vis the United Kingdom, bigotry, and general incompetence. He is blamed for destroying Bismarck's perfect alliance system and, at his worst (so the Fischerite Sonderweg advocates go), he is blamed for Germany's premeditated use of the 1914 crisis to conquer the world.

This is flatly bogus. Germany was a parliamentary monarchy, not a tsarist autocracy. Even if the personal defects attributed to Wilhelm are genuine - a matter of subjective biography - he frankly did not have enough scope to exercise them even as Kaiser to make more of an impact on European diplomacy than already-extant trends. Anglo-German alliance was not sunk by the Kaiser. It was rendered impossible because the United Kingdom and Germany simply did not have any common interests, any real venues for cooperation. The only possible one, Russia, was rendered null and void by Germany's quite reasonable stance that getting involved in the Anglo-Russian Great Game would mean that Germany would have to bear the brunt (on land) of any fighting, while the British leisurely sailed to victory like they always did. Other, long-term factors wedging Germans and Russians apart, such as the effect of the "grain invasion" on East-Elbian German rye farmers and the ensuing tariff wars beginning in the 1890s, are generally glossed over in favor of one-shot pointless crap like the Kaiser bumbling about in Morocco or the Kaiser calling Germans "as badass as the Huns" or the Kaiser's Daily Telegraph interview. Hell, even the oft-derided Anglo-German naval race, creating the so-called Luxusflotte that did nothing useful in wartime but make Britain angry, had ceased to be a bone of contention after Germany unilaterally abandoned the race in 1912-3. (Conveniently ignored by Tuchman.)

The people who were pursuing confrontational diplomacy in 1914 were not the Central Powers, but rather the Entente. The Great Power system worked to preserve peace in large part because Great Powers didn't go to war with other Great Powers over small powers. In 1853, the British and French backed the Ottoman Empire against Russia and caused the most drastic series of wars and shifts in Continental political power since Napoleon. In 1859, the French backed Piedmont against Austria and continued the trend. In 1887, Austria-Hungary and Germany did not back Bulgaria against Russia and kept the peace. In 1909, Russia did not back Serbia against Germany and kept the peace. Russia's, and more specifically the Tsar's and Sazonov's, decision to treat Serbia's continuing prestige as a middle-rank power as a key Russian interest did more than any German or Habsburg initiative ever did to spark the July Crisis.

Much was made of the German "blank check" to the Habsburgs. Nobody ever seems to talk about France's "blank check" to Russia, or Russia's "blank check" to Serbia. (Admittedly, the second of these wasn't explicit; when Pašić made his leap in rejecting the ultimatum, he was gambling that Russia would intervene, and pandering to domestic critics to try to keep a lid on the civil war/coup that Dimitrijević was starting. So it's understandable in that context.) Russia's overall failure to manage the crisis effectively (that is, if they wanted peace at all) is usually explained away by earlier historians (incl. Tuchman) by a supposed Russian inability to only conduct partial mobilization due to the nature of their military system. This was decisively proved to be false as far back as the 1960s; Russia was better able than any other power, including Germany and France, to mobilize against a variety of different scenarios. Anyway, the so-called "blank check" was not a way for Germany to goad Austria-Hungary into taking the decisive actions that German diplomats thought needed to be taken; it was a German abdication of responsibility. If blame is to be assigned to Germany for the outbreak of the First World War, it ought to be assigned to the recent widower Kanzler Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg (which is like kicking a sick puppy), who didn't take the hardline, drastic steps that Germany had taken in previous crises (see 1908-9) and let the Russians think they could get away with murder.

The real problem, as far as I'm concerned, is that Tuchman still operates in the context of the so-called "Schlieffen Plan" as described by Gerhard Ritter. That description is lunatic. Apparently we are expected to believe that the blueprint for the entire German army in the event of war was written down on a memo that contained no troop dispositions save vague outlines of divisions, employed more divisions on the "Right Wing" than comprised the entire German Army at that point, was kept in the house safe of two elderly German ladies for near of a decade, and was the sole war plan of the entire German military for nine years, during which time it only underwent minor modifications. This unlikely conclusion was decisively deflated as early as the 1970s and 1980s with the publication of several US Army articles on the workings of the Imperial German Greater General Staff, and finally put to rest by Terence Zuber's seminal 1999 article in War in History, which eventually was expanded into the invaluable book Inventing the Schlieffen Plan. If you want a real account of German war planning, look at Zuber's book or Strachan's book (more even-handed, or as a Zuberfag would say, more conservative), not Tuchman.

In general, I'd recommend different books if you want to read about the opening salvos of the First World War. The standard text is now Strachan's The First World War Part I: To Arms, which has the benefit of being exhaustive and the drawback of being long as all hell. Showalter's Tannenberg: Clash of Empires is fantastic for Russo-German prewar diplomacy and the Gumbinnen-Tannenberg-Masurian Lakes campaign, but does get bogged down in detail somewhat during the battles themselves (and the maps are pretty meh). The Battles of the Frontiers and of Mons recently underwent a drastic update after respective treatments by Zuber, which are highly readable if somewhat specific. Herwig, The Marne 1914 is decent.

That said, Masada should probably not be so confrontational. w/e
 
Dachs said:
That said, Masada should probably not be so confrontational.

It did have the scope for some game theory. Guilty as charged :(
 
It's interesting to read that fundamental points about the history of a war which started in 1914 were being rewritten 50 (and more!) years after the events.
Do you think that we still expect any major changes in the general knowledge about, or at least interpretation of, WW2?
 
It's interesting to read that fundamental points about the history of a war which started in 1914 were being rewritten 50 (and more!) years after the events.
Do you think that we still expect any major changes in the general knowledge about, or at least interpretation of, WW2?
Probably not now, since the collapse of the USSR opened up many of its previously classified files for study. Possibly if some more are discovered/released.
 
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