ALC Game 31: Greece/Pericles

1NE looks best to me. More riverside grassland (at least 9!), still has 5 grass hills, a 3F city tile, and the corn will automatically irrigate at CS.
 
1NE looks temting indeed, more monney and good production (5 hills plus the cows are realy strong). The loss of the unforested hills are not that big of a loss, it probably containing something like Iron but you will have culture there early as Pircels anyway.
 
Pericles!!! :D

SIP ain't half bad. 1E probably an option but I like both. Still, SIP.
Lotsa green there too. And riverside for what isn't half bad as a levee site. The defense bonus is a side bonus, but still OK. This hill isn't really a massive loss with all these other hills around anyway. IDK if it's a good idea, but if I got a map like that I'd be running bureaucracy just for the production bonus. Seeing as Perry is a top tier SE leader we'll prob want CS for inland farms anyway, so it's not off the beaten track... even a little cottaging on those lovely greens?? Note: I play Noble, and actually, if my strategies for this situation are blatantly wrong, I'd appreciate a little advice on my beloved Specialist Economy. ;)
 
Also, you might want to put a link to this ALC in your sig eh? ;)
 
I would move 1NE. Extra food, extra grassland riverside hill and still all resources. Brilliant start this one. Agr->AH->mining->BW if you ask me. This will be a production beast.
 
@CaF
Hide your spoilers, please.

Whoops. I mixed this one up with another game that actually was further. We are still talk SIP or not here.

Lost 1972AD space race by one turn. Whatever. Everything beyond the first 5 turns sucked.

Spoiler :

I reloaded to 4 turns before the original warmode. This time certain neighbour sat there with a monster stack for 1000 years next to his not-me worst enemy, went into warmode once. Went out of it. Went into warmode twice and got AP'd on the turn of the declaration. This game surely is stochastic and funny. I wasted like 700 years total warring him twice later in the game. I learned that killing one stack is actually not enough if you can't follow up. I also learned that drill 4 machine guns absorb like 5 suicide units per turn like it's nothing.
I sure suck when it comes to non-nuke warfare.

The start is really interesting. I settled in place and didn't cottage the sugars. I farmed them until Calendar. In fact, I didn't build a single cottage this game, running Rep all day long until UN screwed me into all that useless junk. Didn't turn out so well in the later stages as my beakers never really climbed over 1000 per turn with Rep and fell to around 750 without Rep.

I guess with Rep based economies you have to make it quick before you slow down or get slowed down. But on fractal you never really know how pangeaish the map is.
 
Round 1: 4000 BC to 2360 BC (41 turns)

Spoiler :
I really like the first few turns of the game. They've always been my favorite. Part of this is because most games offer several options for the first city and thus some interesting things to thing about. This map was no exception. I read all of your comments and thought about it for a while. In the end, I decided that I really liked the idea of using Oxford as Pericles' unofficial UB.

Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG


There was a possibility that I'd be missing out on metals in the hills to the south, but if that happened a second city could easily claim them. And I like having a strong bureaucracy + oxford capital and so far in the ALCs I haven't had one. The capital also has lots of flexibility. It can still serve as a production city and I'm sure it will generate a few great people.

The screenshot also shows the starting builds and research. Worker first is great almost always. In this case, even when I don't begin with any of the worker techs I'll need, I still build worker first. I'm researching Agriculture first so that my worker can farm the corn and then any other tiles while waiting for Animal Husbandry to come in. At that point in can go pasture the cows and get my two best tiles online right away. Which is what you should always, always be trying to do.

A few turns later we meet our first neighbor.

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Isabella is indeed a crazy wench. She will declare war at pleased. But she's easy to get to friendly if a religion is shared. And she's easy to get to furious if you don't share a religion. So pretty much, same religion = great ally and different religion = worst enemy. So I'll be trying to adopt her religion if she founds one.

And our second neighbor finds us.

Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG


This guy is another nutjob. He's got a high unit prob and he's aggressive, which makes those units even more annoying. He's hard to get along with, but he's super predictable. That predictability definitely suggests we should take him out early. I'm not sure where he is as of yet. But he bumped into us at our northern border.

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You can also see that I went ahead and picked Animal Husbandry as planned. And Buddhism was founded. You have one guess as to who founded it.

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After the worker came out, he went right over to the corn and started farming. After the capital finished the worker, it started on some warriors both for defense and for some extra exploration. My scout was still going around exploring, but I was expecting him to die at some point. You can only be so careful. The worker continued to farm, this time the silk.

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That farm will eventually be replaced with a plantation. But for now, the extra base food provided by the silk is very useful to keep my capital growing quickly. My scout found Isabella.

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So that's 13 tiles in between the two capitals, which is pretty far for a rush. We'll have to wait and see where and if copper pops up, but I'm thinking that rushing Isabella at this point is going to be on the more difficult side, especially given that Madrid will have the holy city cultural defenses.

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The worker then moved to the cow and started on a pasture. Remember, you want to get your good tiles improved right away.

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The capital needs a warrior to keep the happy cap at five. I was going to send the warrior that was currently there out to fog bust, so I built another one and timed it such that the new warrior would finish and keep the city happy right when the city grew to pop five.

My scout got attacked and survived again.

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I went ahead and gave him woodsman 1 given the large amount of trees and jungle in the area. I'm not really too worried about if that's best or not, since he'll probably die soon anyway (he did end up dying at the hand ... arrow of an archer).

The worker was finished with the special tiles in the fat cross and I had enough food, so some mines were in order.

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I kept building warriors. I'm not quite comfortable yet with barbarians on Immortal. Better safe than sorry.

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Genghis proceeded to found a city nearby. Unfortunately it's on a hill and will be hard to take. It's also annoying because I was planning on putting my own city 1E of that one. And that city would have been awesome. Ah well.

The capital had finished its first settler after building a few more warriors and was now starting on a second worker.

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The city is also all improved and has become quite a nice first city. And this is where I ended the turnset.

Here's the nearby land and the possible city sites.

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Silly me. You can't see, but the south city named "production" has pigs 2 south of it. It also claims copper, which would let us build some troops. The other sites are pretty self explanatory. Where do you think we should settle?

For those of you learning how to fogbust. Here's what I did with my warriors to keep the capital safe from most problems.

Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG


Keep the warriors in a ring around you city. On forested hills if possible. If you can't be on both, pick a forest somewhere. There are some archers wandering around. So I'll probably have to build a few more warriors to keep us safe. But up to Immortal, warriors are fine for barb defense if you build enough of them and put them in logical places.

Here's Genghis's land.

Civ4ScreenShot0017.JPG


It's 4 tiles closer than Spain is so it would definitely be possible to rush. And I'm pretty sure his capital is on flatland, so it wouldn't be super hard to take. Also remember that archers don't get the free combat promotion. So if we can strike Genghis before he gets too many melee units we should be okay. You can also see that he has elephants! :eek:.

So here's the plan. Phalanx rush Genghis and take his capital and maybe one other city. Declare war again a few turns later and finish him off. Then I'll tech to Construction and Horseback Riding at which point I'll take out Isabella with highly promoted phalanxes, elephants, and catapults.

If you think this isn't the right move, speak now, or forever hold you peace.
 
Good plan for the future, can't disagree with anything there myself, but I'd like to see what everyone else thinks. On reflection, the site you picked does seem to be the better choice, 5 hills is pretty respectable. Genghis is certainly within rush distance, and phalanxes shine in a rush, especially against Chariots if Genghis gets them. Which is pretty much the point of ALCs anyway. Good work.
 
@beng


Spoiler :
I settled on the dye as well for my second city - awesome city that built mids late for kicks. I actually settled 1E of the "better spot" to avoid less border hugging with GK. It's still a very good city and can share some of those river mines with Athens. However, you could make an argument to settle on a hill so close to GK simply for defense.

The big concern here - besides early GK DOW - is that he also has the most land to expand into and he's a fast expander. However, the Human has plenty of juice here to work with. Buddhist GK DOW'd on Buddhist Izzy in may game :lol:
 
I like to spoil the turnsets since they're image heavy and this way people with slower internet connections can read the comments without having to wait for all the images to load. But for the comments I'm not going to be intense about spoilering stuff. It's kind of tedious opening and closing spoilers all the time. In some formats it's necessary, like the club and university games, but here I don't think so. So, WARNING: to those of you who are shadowing (I see TMIT is playing this game on youtube, I'm excited to watch. :)) read ahead at your own risk. This shouldn't be much of a problem since I play these slow on purpose and after a week or so I imagine everyone shadowing will be miles ahead of where I am.

Genghis is certainly within rush distance, and phalanxes shine in a rush, especially against Chariots if Genghis gets them. Which is pretty much the point of ALCs anyway. Good work.

My thoughts too. The whole point of the ALCs is to use the leader's traits and the civilization's unique stuff. And I have a great unique unit axe replacement, I have copper in a good city location, and I have a nearby idiot neighbor. A phalanx rush looks like a must!

I settled on the dye as well for my second city - awesome city that built mids late for kicks. I actually settled 1E of the "better spot" to avoid less border hugging with GK. It's still a very good city and can share some of those river mines with Athens. However, you could make an argument to settle on a hill so close to GK simply for defense.

One east is also a good spot. And I am a fan of cities that can already have improved tiles. One east of better spot would be bale to work the cows and one of the hills from the capital so it looks good. I'm not too worried about GK borders or defense though, since I'm going to rush him to obsolescence. I might not finish him off entirely, but I'm not going to be worrying about his as a threat.

The big concern here - besides early GK DOW - is that he also has the most land to expand into and he's a fast expander. However, the Human has plenty of juice here to work with. Buddhist GK DOW'd on Buddhist Izzy in may game :lol:

Yes. He does expand quite quickly. But that's just means less heavily defended core cities and more cities for me to take. :).

And Genghis and Isabella are worst enemies in my game also. So they might well get into a fight over here too.
 
It seems like you are stuck with just Izzy and Genghis on this continent, as I don't think there is anyone else out there. It is probably the safest to take out that psychopathic jerk as early as possible, but that would mean that you will potentially be making yourself in an isolated/semi-isolated situation. This is usually the reason I don't like continents map or fractal maps that end up being continents.

There is no guarantee that Genghis and Izzy will become worst enemies though... it could just end up being you, in which case, Genghis' warmongering will be extremely annoying and will slow down your progress. So even though I don't like the possibility of being in isolated/semi-isolated situation, it is probably for the best to get rid of him ASAP.

As for Izzy, if you take out Genghis, there is no point in letting her stick around either. So it looks like all out war from the beginning or trying to get along peacefully, which is highly unlikely.
 
if you want to phalanx rush GK you need the city 1SE of dye to get copper in 1st ring. you're not creative and I am not sure if you even have myst.
Waiting for monument delays your time window at least 16-7 turns.

If you are for delaying rush and make it more cats+axes, then settle on the dye. But maybe first make the western city since you need at least some cities towards GK.

Big danger of waiting until cats is that GK gets there quick too and he has ivory.
 
if you want to phalanx rush GK you need the city 1SE of dye to get copper in 1st ring. you're not creative and I am not sure if you even have myst.
Waiting for monument delays your time window at least 16-7 turns.

If you are for delaying rush and make it more cats+axes, then settle on the dye. But maybe first make the western city since you need at least some cities towards GK.

Big danger of waiting until cats is that GK gets there quick too and he has ivory.

Bengie is playing Pericles, not Alex. ^_^ He is indeed creative.

I think the earlier the rush the better.
 
It seems like you are stuck with just Izzy and Genghis on this continent, as I don't think there is anyone else out there. It is probably the safest to take out that psychopathic jerk as early as possible, but that would mean that you will potentially be making yourself in an isolated/semi-isolated situation. This is usually the reason I don't like continents map or fractal maps that end up being continents.

There is no guarantee that Genghis and Izzy will become worst enemies though... it could just end up being you, in which case, Genghis' warmongering will be extremely annoying and will slow down your progress. So even though I don't like the possibility of being in isolated/semi-isolated situation, it is probably for the best to get rid of him ASAP.

As for Izzy, if you take out Genghis, there is no point in letting her stick around either. So it looks like all out war from the beginning or trying to get along peacefully, which is highly unlikely.

Don't worry so much! Being isolated and semi-isolated is lame if you have crappy land. See ALC 30. But in this case if I take out both Isabella and Genghis I'll have a whole continent of nice land to myself. Isolation is fine if I can get 35 cities.

if you want to phalanx rush GK you need the city 1SE of dye to get copper in 1st ring. you're not creative and I am not sure if you even have myst.

I am creative though! Creative is good fun for reasons exactly like this one. Normally I'd have to compromise my city sites if I wanted to rush, but creativity allows a lot more flexibility.

Victory Condition

It's never too early to start thinking about victory conditions. In this map, I've got some good land, I'm philosophical, and I already have access to a religion. So creative might be an interesting choice. My first three games have all been very war heavy especially at the end. So just for the sake of diversity, I'm thinking of going space or creative here, or maybe a more peaceful UN. Any victory will be easier without GK in the mix, so let's take him out first.

EDIT: And there's something really sexy about having 3 capitals be my three legendary cities. :lol:
 
Don't worry so much! Being isolated and semi-isolated is lame if you have crappy land. See ALC 30. But in this case if I take out both Isabella and Genghis I'll have a whole continent of nice land to myself. Isolation is fine if I can get 35 cities.

Very true that. ^_^ I don't know why, but it seems like Genghis is popping up in almost every game I try to play these days.... that jerk!
 
ah well... 5 turns delay then + 1 more road... if he times it well with barracks in capital could work.

My goal for an immortal axe rush is 10 axes on turn 70. I think that's definitely possible here. I have lots of hills to mine and lots of trees to chop. It's turn 41 so I can settle the city on turn 45. Borders will be pop on turn 50. Mine completed on turn 53 with two workers. Build/chop ten phalanxes by turn 65 in two cities. I'm at the gates of Mongolia in another 5 turns. Declare on turn 70 and go straight for the capital. I think it should work, even if I botch the micro a little bit.
 
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