Soldiers rating in demographics

vexing said:

the formula for n seems to be (1.15 * combat strength) ^ 1.5
this isn't exact, there are maybe two levels of truncation, but it fits the basic curve.

there are additional percent modifiers for some subset of innate promotions, which i haven't figured out exactly. for example the jaguar and mohawk warrior both start at 25% higher than their counterparts, an anti tank gun starts at 25% above it's base 222 (277), while an anti aircraft gun starts at 95% above (432).

additionally the % damage a unit has suffered is cut directly from its strength (ie an aa gun at 1 health is either 43 or 44)

Click to expand...

Nice work vexing

I'm sure that:
n number is not connected with combat power but only with:
-unit base power
-unit promotions
-civilization gold amount
-unit HP

and formula for n number is sth like that:
=(( unitbasepower+x)^y) / z
with gold const =0 and only for units without promotions like warrior, sword and long
so we have
unit/power/n level
warrior/6/17
sword/11/44
long/16/75
so
17=((6+x)^y)/z
44=((11+x)^y)/z
75=((16+x)^y)/z

and who will find x,y,z? i think that you can assume that y = 2 or 3 or 4

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Nefliqus said:

-unit base power
-unit promotions

Click to expand...

it is base power only, regular promotions actually have no effect but level and base promotions do. that is if you give a unit free promotions using firetuner, its power doesn't change, but if you give it experience and grant it promotions that way, then the N increases.

the base N for melee units i already gave... (1.15*base combat strength)^1.5

based on your chart, one level seems to grant an additional 25% floored. i don't know the effect of gold, but i'd expect it's not a per unit thing and just is applied after everything else

vexing said:

it is base power only, regular promotions actually have no effect but level and base promotions do. that is if you give a unit free promotions using firetuner, its power doesn't change, but if you give it experience and grant it promotions that way, then the N increases.

the base N for melee units i already gave... (1.15*base combat strength)^1.5

based on your chart, one level seems to grant an additional 25% floored. i don't know the effect of gold, but i'd expect it's not a per unit thing and just is applied after everything else

Click to expand...

exactly

You can add new panel to firetuner from this post
http://www.flickr.com/photos/whoward69/5775260621/sizes/l/in/photostream/
http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?108142-MOD-Live-Tuner-Panels
it is very useful for testing

there are 3 variable regarding units positive modifiers:
unit experience
unit level
unit promotions

all can be modified separately
pNewUnit:SetExperience(iExperience) -> experience
pUnit:SetLevel(iLevel) -> level

unit:SetHasPromotion(4, true); -->drill I
unit:SetHasPromotion(1, true); -->shock I
unit:SetHasPromotion(30, true); -->march
unit:SetHasPromotion(31, true); -->bliz
unit:SetHasPromotion(78, true); --> +1 move

if you get promotion from experience you automatically change unit level

so

if we want to be accurate we should modified our list to:
-unit base power
-current unit level (from experience)
-starting unit promotions (e.g warrior and jaguar both have 6 base power but different n number. I think that it is because additional promotion that jaguar has at start)
-civilization gold amount
-unit HP

Maybe there is 4th variable that describe units but I dont know it.

i don't know the effect of gold, but i'd expect it's not a per unit thing and just is applied after everything else

Click to expand...

unfortunately it is per unit based and every n-level has different gold steps

e.g if you have 10 gold:
warrior score will not change because first gold step for 17 level (first warrior level) is 35 gold
but sward score will by 1 levels up because sword (level 44) has 0, 6 ,21 gold steps

see attached file for more data

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Nefliqus said:

there are 3 variable regarding units positive modifiers:
unit experience
unit level
unit promotions

Click to expand...

only innate promotions and level gained promotions have an impact.
you can run a command like for x=1,100,1 do unit:SetHasPromotion(x, true) end; and the unit's N value does not change. however if you modify the unitFreePromotions table and give a warrior siege 1 or such, its power does increase.

unfortunately it is per unit based and every n-level has different gold steps

Click to expand...

nope. it appears to be floor(n*(1+gold^.5/100))
for a warrior at 35 gold this gives 17 * (1+35^.5/100) = 18.00573, while 34 gold gives 17.99, hence the first step point for a warrior is 35 gold

thanks for the data, made figuring that part out easy.

vexing said:

only innate promotions and level gained promotions have an impact.
you can run a command like for x=1,100,1 do unit:SetHasPromotion(x, true) end; and the unit's N value does not change. however if you modify the unitFreePromotions table and give a warrior siege 1 or such, its power does increase.



nope. it appears to be floor(n*(1+gold^.5/100))
for a warrior at 35 gold this gives 17 * (1+35^.5/100) = 18.00573, while 34 gold gives 17.99, hence the first step point for a warrior is 35 gold

thanks for the data, made figuring that part out easy.

Click to expand...

I love you
How you did it?

Initiate promotion is not a problem because it is constant so it is very easy to check initiate n for all units.

Your gold formula it is what I needed, thank you.

are you sure that this formula for meele unit is ok? e.g.
scout base strength = 4
(1.15*4)^1.5 = 9,86
it should be 9 - OK

warrior base strength = 6
(1.15*6)^1.5 = 18,12
it should be 17 - Err

sword base strength = 11
(1.15*11)^1.5 =44,99
it should be 44 - ok

longsword base strength = 16
(1.15*16)^1.5 =78,92
it should be 78 - ok

it works with:
floor((1.15*strength)^1.5 -0,25)


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Nefliqus said:

it works with:
floor((1.15*strength)^1.5 -0,25)

Click to expand...

the formula is not exact, but it's a pretty close approximation. i'd guess there is more flooring that occurs somewhere that is the cause of the slightly off errors; i haven't been able to find the exact formula, though i'm not looking too hard.

the strength : n values that need to fit are
1 1
10 38
20 109
25 153
40 310
50 434
80 880
100 1231
200 3481
201 3507

vexing said:

the formula is not exact, but it's a pretty close approximation. i'd guess there is more flooring that occurs somewhere that is the cause of the slightly off errors; i haven't been able to find the exact formula, though i'm not looking too hard.

the strength : n values that need to fit are
1 1
10 38
20 109
25 153
40 310
50 434
80 880
100 1231
200 3481
201 3507

Click to expand...

I think that we dont need this strength formula.
What I want to do is a list of initial n and 1 level n for all units.

What a pity that lua command GetMilitaryMight() uses turn-1 data. I dont know how to refresh it or how to end turn by lua command.

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Initial MilitaryMight level for all units
gold =0, level = 0


american_b17 401
american_minuteman 78
anti_aircraft_gun 432
anti_tank_gun 277
arabian_camelarcher 69
archer 16
artillery 164
artist 0
atomic_bomb 4000
aztec_jaguar 21
babylonian_bowman 24
barbarian_archer 19
barbarian_spearman 27
barbarian_swordsman 44
barbarian_warrior 17
battleship 115
bomber 357
cannon 120
caravel 13
carrier 199
catapult 39
cavalry 173
chariot_archer 24
chinese_chukonu 39
crossbowman 61
danish_berserker 88
danish_ski_infantry 217
destroyer 103
egyptian_warchariot 25
engineer 0
english_longbowman 61
english_shipoftheline 48
fighter 322
french_foreignlegion 265
french_musketeer 109
frigate 40
galley 2
german_landsknecht 47
german_panzer 794
great_general 0
greek_companioncavalry 66
greek_hoplite 41
guided_missile 232
helicopter_gunship 755
horseman 46
incan_slinger 16
indian_warelephant 27
infantry 265
ironclad 50
iroquoian_mohawkwarrior 54
japanese_samurai 78
japanese_zero 342
jet_fighter 581
knight 105
korean_hwacha 104
korean_turtle_ship 27
lancer 156
longswordsman 78
mech_robot 2554
mechanized_infantry 490
merchant 0
missile_cruiser 95
mobile_sam 743
modern_armor 1158
mongolian_keshik 66
mongolian_khan 0
musketman 78
nuclear_missile 4000
nuclear_submarine 454
ottoman_janissary 87
ottoman_sipahi 166
paratrooper 387
persian_immortal 33
pikeman 47
polynesian_maori_warrior 17
rifleman 153
rocket_artillery 392
roman_ballista 55
roman_legion 56
russian_cossack 173
scientist 0
scout 9
settler 0
siamese_warelephant 141
songhai_muslimcavalry 105
spanish_conquistador 105
spanish_tercio 116
spearman 27
ss_booster 0
ss_cockpit 0
ss_engine 0
ss_stasis_chamber 0
stealth_bomber 706
submarine 306
swordsman 44
tank 572
trebuchet 67
trireme 4
warrior 17
workboat 0
worker 0

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unfortunately level modifier is not a simple 25%

unit / level 0 / level 1 / level 2
MODERN_ARMOR 1158 1425 1610

MONGOLIAN_KESHIK 66 81 91


HELICOPTER_GUNSHIP 755 929 1049

MECH_ROBOT 2554 3144 3551


level mod = first score * current level^0,3


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interesting that nukes and abombs have the same ranking.
looks like abombs are the best deterrent available.

odf file in attachment

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Woot, sounds like another number crunching thread for me

Does that formula actually mean

"If you want to maximize your military rating in demographics, get a tech lead and spawn high tech units?"

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here are units ordered by might / hammer cost - presumably the most effective things to build for the sole purpose of deterrent

atomic_bomb 6.666666667
mech_robot 6.009411765
nuclear_missile 4
modern_armor 2.724705882
german_panzer 2.117333333
helicopter_gunship 1.776470588
mobile_sam 1.748235294
stealth_bomber 1.661176471
guided_missile 1.546666667
tank 1.525333333
jet_fighter 1.367058824
mechanized_infantry 1.306666667
siamese_warelephant 1.175
anti_aircraft_gun 1.152
american_b17 1.069333333
nuclear_submarine 1.068235294
german_landsknecht 1.044444444
paratrooper 1.032
anti_tank_gun 1.025925926
bomber 0.952
rocket_artillery 0.922352941
japanese_zero 0.912
ottoman_sipahi 0.897297297
greek_companioncavalry 0.88
knight 0.875
songhai_muslimcavalry 0.875
fighter 0.858666667
barbarian_warrior 0.85
lancer 0.843243243
french_foreignlegion 0.828125
infantry 0.828125
submarine 0.816
cavalry 0.768888889
russian_cossack 0.768888889
roman_legion 0.746666667
roman_ballista 0.733333333
greek_hoplite 0.732142857
french_musketeer 0.726666667
iroquoian_mohawkwarrior 0.72
rifleman 0.68
japanese_samurai 0.65
longswordsman 0.65
cannon 0.648648649
horseman 0.613333333
persian_immortal 0.589285714
barbarian_swordsman 0.586666667
swordsman 0.586666667
ottoman_janissary 0.58
arabian_camelarcher 0.575
trebuchet 0.558333333
mongolian_keshik 0.55
carrier 0.530666667
aztec_jaguar 0.525
pikeman 0.522222222
american_minuteman 0.52
musketman 0.52
catapult 0.52
artillery 0.5125
crossbowman 0.508333333
english_longbowman 0.508333333
barbarian_spearman 0.482142857
spearman 0.482142857
barbarian_archer 0.475
egyptian_warchariot 0.446428571
chariot_archer 0.428571429
warrior 0.425
archer 0.4
indian_warelephant 0.385714286
scout 0.36
chinese_chukonu 0.325
battleship 0.306666667
english_shipoftheline 0.282352941
destroyer 0.274666667
missile_cruiser 0.223529412
frigate 0.216216216
ironclad 0.185185185
caravel 0.108333333
trireme 0.071428571



and mostly similar, might/gold cost (standard speed)

atomic_bomb 2.580645161
mech_robot 2.146218487
nuclear_missile 1.762114537
modern_armor 0.973109244
german_panzer 0.728440367
helicopter_gunship 0.634453782
mobile_sam 0.624369748
stealth_bomber 0.593277311
tank 0.524770642
jet_fighter 0.488235294
mechanized_infantry 0.449541284
guided_missile 0.42962963
anti_aircraft_gun 0.396330275
nuclear_submarine 0.381512605
american_b17 0.367889908
paratrooper 0.355045872
rocket_artillery 0.329411765
bomber 0.327522936
anti_tank_gun 0.325882353
japanese_zero 0.313761468
siamese_warelephant 0.306521739
fighter 0.295412844
submarine 0.280733945
french_foreignlegion 0.276041667
infantry 0.276041667
ottoman_sipahi 0.259375
lancer 0.24375
cavalry 0.233783784
russian_cossack 0.233783784
knight 0.22826087
songhai_muslimcavalry 0.22826087
german_landsknecht 0.213636364
rifleman 0.206756757
french_musketeer 0.201851852
cannon 0.1875
carrier 0.182568807
artillery 0.170833333
japanese_samurai 0.169565217
longswordsman 0.169565217
greek_companioncavalry 0.169230769
ottoman_janissary 0.161111111
greek_hoplite 0.157692308
arabian_camelarcher 0.15
trebuchet 0.145652174
american_minuteman 0.144444444
musketman 0.144444444
roman_legion 0.143589744
mongolian_keshik 0.143478261
barbarian_warrior 0.141666667
roman_ballista 0.141025641
iroquoian_mohawkwarrior 0.138461538
barbarian_swordsman 0.1375
crossbowman 0.132608696
english_longbowman 0.132608696
pikeman 0.127027027
persian_immortal 0.126923077
horseman 0.117948718
swordsman 0.112820513
battleship 0.105504587
aztec_jaguar 0.105
barbarian_spearman 0.103846154
spearman 0.103846154
catapult 0.1
egyptian_warchariot 0.096153846
barbarian_archer 0.095
destroyer 0.094495413
chariot_archer 0.092307692
indian_warelephant 0.087096774
warrior 0.085
chinese_chukonu 0.084782609
archer 0.08
missile_cruiser 0.079831933
english_shipoftheline 0.066666667
scout 0.064285714
ironclad 0.058823529
frigate 0.051948052
caravel 0.021666667
trireme 0.015384615


to summarize, for posturing ships are weak and mounted are strong, and abombs blow away the competition

Hi guys,

the numbers of the base military might seem to have changed with G+K. (i.e. Warrior now 27 instead of 17) Any idea, how to find out the new values? Is there already a list of the new numbers somewhere?

I've got a simpler question than a reverse engineering of the formula for Soldier count in the Demographics menu.

My question is: when are the Demographic values updated? At the beginning of my turn? At the end of my turn (aka when I've clicked on Next turn)? At some other time?

I'm pretty certain that those values aren't always in sync with the present game state...

I find it interesting that promotions and gold factor into the military score.

In contrast, population and technology do *not* factor in (whereas they did in Civ IV).

Aaginor said:

Hi guys,

the numbers of the base military might seem to have changed with G+K. (i.e. Warrior now 27 instead of 17) Any idea, how to find out the new values? Is there already a list of the new numbers somewhere?

Click to expand...

it's still the same formulas, the values changed because combat strength changed. unfortunately we never figured out a full formula, but you can approximate by (1.15*base combat strength)^1.5

if you want to find out the values, i think nefliqus just used firetuner to pop the units and the GetMilitaryMight command listed in his post above.

mintcandy said:

I'm pretty certain that those values aren't always in sync with the present game state...

Click to expand...

they're definitely not in sync mid turn, but i suspect they update between each players turn.

Ah, thanks a lot for the info, vexing! As I didn't played vanilla Civ5, I didn't realize, that the combat values changed. I think the approximation will already help a lot!

@mintcandy: It is definitely somewhere before your turn starts, at least before the production has been calculated. I.e. when you produce your first scout you can see, that the soldier-value doesn't change, it changes in the next round. Also, when you stumble upon a ruin with weapons, the value doesn't change immediately.
But if your opponents build units, you see it in the turn following theirs.
I have not proven that guess yet, but from what I see in my small tests, it works like this.

This is still best info on the topic.

Anyone has the list of units for BNW?