Civic Mini Mod / Suggestions for RoM
- Thread starter Lawrie
- Start date
Big Heb
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2008
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- 266
Sounds good. We have RoM 2.5 as a base to see what works and what does not work, and to see what ways we can make the mini-mod more unique than the base RoM 2.5 (unique units, more unique buildings, lack of base yield/commerce bonuses except in Government, ETC.)Yep Heb lol I know its a bit quiet, im bang in the middle of a commission (work) but the sec i get my holiday time (soon!) We'll get this ninja kicking ready! Do we have the modifiers to play with yet Zapp
Grimz101
King
Have you guys ever thought about civics based on your vassals/colonies?
Like the French with their building of universities and hospitals in their colonies? There could be oppressive choices too that hurt your vassal/colonies growth but increase your military production, representing the men they contribute to your armies.
Like the French with their building of universities and hospitals in their colonies? There could be oppressive choices too that hurt your vassal/colonies growth but increase your military production, representing the men they contribute to your armies.
Big Heb
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2008
- Messages
- 266
It is a good idea, but unfortunately we are constrained by XML tags. So the only bonuses we can include are from the preexisting XML tags in RoM and from taking XML tags from other mods or other programmers to add to the mini-mod.
Check out the new v2.502 beta patch - it has some new civic modifiers that were originally suggested in this thread. I just found out a way to make them happen through python (those civics still need other modifiers as AI doesn't "know" about the modifiers made through python).
New modifiers that are possible:
- building cost modifiers (single building, many buildings, wonders, national wonders - basically any combination)
- unit cost modifiers (single unit, many units, unit combat groups)
- free promotions to new units
These modifiers can require also multiple civics to be active before the modifier is applied (see Castle modifier in Monarchy and Feudal in v2.502) and those modifiers can also require certain techs before activated. I'm looking for possibilities to add some other modifiers but don't ask for any specific modifiers as I don't know yet what is possible.
Big Heb
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2008
- Messages
- 266
Thank you very much, zapp. Once Lawrie and I get some free time, we should come up with some great innovative ideas. The possibilities are now very wide.
BlackBird28
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2008
- Messages
- 34
Been gone awhile. Looks like there has been some substantial progress on the technical front. Anyways I'm excited about finally nailing down the bonuses. some quick questions.
are there now eight civics per column?
are we still going with Lawrie's religion column?(i hope so)
are there now eight civics per column?
are we still going with Lawrie's religion column?(i hope so)
Big Heb
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2008
- Messages
- 266
Most likely yes. We might change some civics into others (e.g. Green, Oligarchy) for the mini-mod. But based upon play-testing RoM 2.5, earlier Democracy and Federal work rather well. Survival and Folklore are a bit throwaway, so we will probably come up with different ideas for Welfare and Religion. Having the eighth civic adds flavor and originality to civilizations. And with the new modifiers, we will try to make each civic as unique as possible.
Yeah. If we ever wanted to expand a "culture" civic system alongside this one, Rone's ideas should definitely be considered. But as of now, Lawrie's religion column stays.
The objective of this mini-mod (apart from vanilla and RoM) should be to change the role of the civic system. Originally, civics alter the gameplay. What we should do is make it so gameplay alters the results from the civics by making each civic unique, historically accurate and cohesive with the other columns. With the new goodies, we can finally make some civic combos (e.g. Monarchy+Aristocracy+Feudal, Federal+Parliament+Liberal, Marxist+Planned+Socialized, Despotism+Nationalist+Intolerant, ETC.) as a way to simulate history in a similar sense to Rhye's mod.
CMKMStephens
Serious.
Is there any way to represent proxy states? As in Cold War style. Sort of like vassalage but they can also declare war: if they do you get asked if you want to get involved militarily, through aid, through espionage.
Im back! Tonight ironically and my first task if I may my lord hehe is to finish the icons for the civics based on the current mod version? Will I get on with that - can get it done tonight i reckon!
IIIiiiiim back!
Big Heb your defending the religion civic column - my god gentleman (er if thats not blasphemous!) - i think this and others will honestly benefit from a good written manual. I Think we could get on with that - if any of you two are on msn Zapp, Big Heb give me a pm!
IIIiiiiim back!
Big Heb your defending the religion civic column - my god gentleman (er if thats not blasphemous!) - i think this and others will honestly benefit from a good written manual. I Think we could get on with that - if any of you two are on msn Zapp, Big Heb give me a pm!
Jabarto
Emperor
Here we go, thats the rest of the icons done for the civics columnsfor RoM 2.5
The order is Survival, Oligarchy (or Junta) Fascism, Folklore, Federation, Caste - with the graphic caste going back to 'Tribal' as it was intended) and Green.
Good work, as always.
Shai_Halud
Warlord
I've just started looking over this thread per Zap's suggestion. I'm not sure if uits been brought up yet but one civic category I've only once seen represented was "Territory". This would refer to how different parts of the country are organized with regards to leadership, importance, and responsibility. In other word, it determines what ethnic groups or territories lead lead, which peoples are served first by the government, and how each territory or ethic group contributes to the empire as a whole. These are all the options I can think of.
o Hegemony - The base setting. This simply means that one city amongst your people (your capital) has risen to prominence and leads the other cities. Other cities are likely important as well, but for one reason or another, they are satisfied to allow this city to be the seat of power, s long as their interests are not disregarded for too long.
o Confederacy - This means that several peoples with a similar cultural background have come together in a loose alliance to further each others' interests. Every major city has likely demanded equal representation and power in this alliance and only contributes to the nation's well being when its own interests are directly served. No one is oppressed or abused, but not much generally gets done either.
This is as good a place as any to present my personal definition of what an empire is. An empire consists of an imperial domain and several outlying territories. The "imperial domain" may consist of a territory, city, or ethnic group. In an empire, the purpose of the "outlying territories" is always to serve the needs of the imperial domain.
o Tributary Empire - Here, one city, ethnic group, or territory has risen to prominence, likely through military prowess. They have gained power over a group of foreign cities, ethnic groups, or territories but have little interest in controlling them directly. Instead, they are satisfied with simply demanding tribute of their subjects. This tribute usually comes in the form of resources, money, troops, and laborers. Each territory is required to meet a certain quota and if they don't, the imperial military as well as troops from every other territory of the empire come knocking at their door. Unfortunately, tribal loyalties and the transient presence of imperial authority results in frequent uprisings, but the general purpose of such an empire is often simply to permanently weaken neighbors of the imperial domain and provide buffer states against invasion.
o Provincial Empire - Here, one city territory or ethnic group has risen to power and now governs over several outlying territories. Like in a tributary empire, the provinces are expected to work to further the interests of the imperial domain, however, imperial control over these provinces is more direct. Imperial governors are appointed over each territory and the empire has certain limited responsibilities towards its subjects. Public works projects are often carried out in the provinces and the provinces are protected by a standing imperial garrison. Limited attempts are also made at culturally integrating the outlying territories into the the imperial domain.
o Viceroyalty - Here, the imperial domain has imposed a subject feudal system on its outlying territories. This system has its own king (called a viceroy) and feudal lords as well as its own capital. This entire system however is subject to the rulers of the imperial domain (and their political system, whatever it may be). A viceroyalty usually exploits its subjects to the point of exhaustion for the extraction of local wealth and resources. This is done usually because of the distant location of the outlying territory or due to the complete absence of imperial culture. In any case, viceroyalties are lucrative but become increasingly unstable as provincial resources become exhausted.
o Colonial Empire - Here, the imperial domain has settled or conquered cities on foreign soil in the presence of strong foreign culture. The territory is set up as a colony and made economically dependent on the mother country for traded resources. The colony's populace and territory are exploited to create a stable market for the mother country's products and to allow a military presence in the colony's location. Colonies, however, are jealously protected by the empire and are generally allowed home rule to an extent, the form of which they are allowed to choose. They are, however expected to conform to the values and lifestyle of the imperial domain, spreading the culture and religion of the mother country.
o Nation-State - In a nation-state, self-determination is the pervading line of thought. One ethnic group rules, but only where that group is dominant. Each nation-state includes only as many people as are necessary for economic success and military protection. The peoples of a nation-state must share a similar cultural background, therefore, its territories tend to be geographically linked and its boarders tend to conform to natural boundaries. Nation-states have little or no interest in acquiring new territory, but are very interested in exporting their culture and values to other states. They also fiercely defend their territorial boundaries and all peoples of a nation-state feel necessarily obligated to defend their country.
o Federation - In a federation, several cities, territories and/or ethnic groups have willingly combined to further their collective interests. Unlike in a confederacy, members of a federation assume that what is good for one or a few of the members is good for the whole, therefore all member are obligated to protect the federation's interests regardless of whether or not they are directly benefited. Several states and territories with diverse backgrounds may be included and all will likely demand to be represented equally, but they have no right to oppose the decisions of the federation's executive body. Cessation and non-cooperation are met with military action.
This civic would likely have a strong effect on your civ's name and affect maintenance, rebelliousness, culture, and happiness heavily. Viceroyalty should also make viceroyal palaces possible.
o Hegemony - The base setting. This simply means that one city amongst your people (your capital) has risen to prominence and leads the other cities. Other cities are likely important as well, but for one reason or another, they are satisfied to allow this city to be the seat of power, s long as their interests are not disregarded for too long.
o Confederacy - This means that several peoples with a similar cultural background have come together in a loose alliance to further each others' interests. Every major city has likely demanded equal representation and power in this alliance and only contributes to the nation's well being when its own interests are directly served. No one is oppressed or abused, but not much generally gets done either.
This is as good a place as any to present my personal definition of what an empire is. An empire consists of an imperial domain and several outlying territories. The "imperial domain" may consist of a territory, city, or ethnic group. In an empire, the purpose of the "outlying territories" is always to serve the needs of the imperial domain.
o Tributary Empire - Here, one city, ethnic group, or territory has risen to prominence, likely through military prowess. They have gained power over a group of foreign cities, ethnic groups, or territories but have little interest in controlling them directly. Instead, they are satisfied with simply demanding tribute of their subjects. This tribute usually comes in the form of resources, money, troops, and laborers. Each territory is required to meet a certain quota and if they don't, the imperial military as well as troops from every other territory of the empire come knocking at their door. Unfortunately, tribal loyalties and the transient presence of imperial authority results in frequent uprisings, but the general purpose of such an empire is often simply to permanently weaken neighbors of the imperial domain and provide buffer states against invasion.
o Provincial Empire - Here, one city territory or ethnic group has risen to power and now governs over several outlying territories. Like in a tributary empire, the provinces are expected to work to further the interests of the imperial domain, however, imperial control over these provinces is more direct. Imperial governors are appointed over each territory and the empire has certain limited responsibilities towards its subjects. Public works projects are often carried out in the provinces and the provinces are protected by a standing imperial garrison. Limited attempts are also made at culturally integrating the outlying territories into the the imperial domain.
o Viceroyalty - Here, the imperial domain has imposed a subject feudal system on its outlying territories. This system has its own king (called a viceroy) and feudal lords as well as its own capital. This entire system however is subject to the rulers of the imperial domain (and their political system, whatever it may be). A viceroyalty usually exploits its subjects to the point of exhaustion for the extraction of local wealth and resources. This is done usually because of the distant location of the outlying territory or due to the complete absence of imperial culture. In any case, viceroyalties are lucrative but become increasingly unstable as provincial resources become exhausted.
o Colonial Empire - Here, the imperial domain has settled or conquered cities on foreign soil in the presence of strong foreign culture. The territory is set up as a colony and made economically dependent on the mother country for traded resources. The colony's populace and territory are exploited to create a stable market for the mother country's products and to allow a military presence in the colony's location. Colonies, however, are jealously protected by the empire and are generally allowed home rule to an extent, the form of which they are allowed to choose. They are, however expected to conform to the values and lifestyle of the imperial domain, spreading the culture and religion of the mother country.
o Nation-State - In a nation-state, self-determination is the pervading line of thought. One ethnic group rules, but only where that group is dominant. Each nation-state includes only as many people as are necessary for economic success and military protection. The peoples of a nation-state must share a similar cultural background, therefore, its territories tend to be geographically linked and its boarders tend to conform to natural boundaries. Nation-states have little or no interest in acquiring new territory, but are very interested in exporting their culture and values to other states. They also fiercely defend their territorial boundaries and all peoples of a nation-state feel necessarily obligated to defend their country.
o Federation - In a federation, several cities, territories and/or ethnic groups have willingly combined to further their collective interests. Unlike in a confederacy, members of a federation assume that what is good for one or a few of the members is good for the whole, therefore all member are obligated to protect the federation's interests regardless of whether or not they are directly benefited. Several states and territories with diverse backgrounds may be included and all will likely demand to be represented equally, but they have no right to oppose the decisions of the federation's executive body. Cessation and non-cooperation are met with military action.
This civic would likely have a strong effect on your civ's name and affect maintenance, rebelliousness, culture, and happiness heavily. Viceroyalty should also make viceroyal palaces possible.
Shai_Halud
Warlord
The current government civic is horrifically flawed.
First, it should be called "executive", not government.
Chiefdom - chiefs were either elected, despotic, or monarchical
Despotism
Monarch
Democracy
Republic
Communist - this is a type of economic system and a form of society, not a type of leadership. The communist party was an oligarchy and Stalin was a despot.
Fascist - this is a combination of leader cult, police state, and despotism. Fascist leaders are either elected or they are despots.
Federal - this is a form of territorial organization, not of leadership
The earliest cities were ruled by the priestly class, so that might make Priestdom or Theocracy the base setting. Aside from that, this should suffice.
o Autocracy (where one individual rules by self appointment, not through inherited position)
o Oligarchy
o Monarchy
o Stratocracy (where one individual claims power through military triumph)
o Theocracy
o Representation
o Direct-Democracy
Tell me if I'm missing something.
First, it should be called "executive", not government.
Chiefdom - chiefs were either elected, despotic, or monarchical
Despotism
Monarch
Democracy
Republic
Communist - this is a type of economic system and a form of society, not a type of leadership. The communist party was an oligarchy and Stalin was a despot.
Fascist - this is a combination of leader cult, police state, and despotism. Fascist leaders are either elected or they are despots.
Federal - this is a form of territorial organization, not of leadership
The earliest cities were ruled by the priestly class, so that might make Priestdom or Theocracy the base setting. Aside from that, this should suffice.
o Autocracy (where one individual rules by self appointment, not through inherited position)
o Oligarchy
o Monarchy
o Stratocracy (where one individual claims power through military triumph)
o Theocracy
o Representation
o Direct-Democracy
Tell me if I'm missing something.
Shai_Halud
Warlord
Rename "Power" civic "Legislative". Also, remove the option of president. This civic obviously refers to the under body of government with sees to the day-to-day administration of the country.
Maatissi
Turvenuija
Shai Halud, once again you read my mind with your outstanding suggestions!
Indeed, the changes and add-ons you suggested should be implemented! My hat is off to you.
Indeed, the changes and add-ons you suggested should be implemented! My hat is off to you.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Actually I completely disagree with this. The current concensus is that the earliest settlements were eglaterian in that there were no leaders or everyone was a leader. Admittidly this is for very small cities. - end knee jerk reaction
Big Heb
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2008
- Messages
- 266
I originally made the suggestion of making ordered civics. However, an argument that was brought up which I agree with is it removes the flavor from the civics. It is a good idea though.
I like your idea of having Executive and Legislative. However, President would basically mean lack of a strong legislative.
I like your idea of having Executive and Legislative. However, President would basically mean lack of a strong legislative.
Shai_Halud
Warlord
I'm not sure what you think I was suggesting. I don't care about ordered civics, but it might make sense if you had to spend some time as a socialist state before you could enjoy the benefits of true communism. Still, without massive technological development and civic restructuring, that would nevertheless be an impossibility.
I was just trying to figure out what the base setting for executive should be. Make it egalitarian for all I care.
Lastly, I don't think it matters how weak the legislative is, the president doesn't minister to the daily needs of his people, assuming there is a president. Change the name to "Cabinet" meaning the legislative consists of the president's staff.
I was just trying to figure out what the base setting for executive should be. Make it egalitarian for all I care.
Lastly, I don't think it matters how weak the legislative is, the president doesn't minister to the daily needs of his people, assuming there is a president. Change the name to "Cabinet" meaning the legislative consists of the president's staff.
