Naval Mod, from 4000 BC to 2000 AD

GeneralMatt said:

Wow, is that that quanative resources thing that you guys are discussing on the other thread? That would be a cool addition..

Click to expand...

No, actually, this is Yields (Production, Food, and Commerce) not Resources/Bonuses, and I have been working on it for a long time. The quantitative resources is a new project. However, I plan to make units require strategic resource supplies as well. In that case, I'd remove Fuel as a yield and go with Oil being required for the movement of units.

So a lack of Oil wouldn't actually decrease the combat strength of a Tank, for example, it just wouldn't be able to move until it got more Oil. The same would work for ships. Although ships should get some movement since the current alone will move a ship.

I'm figuring that a ship would be considered connected to a resupply base like a city if it were within its MP range of said city. Ships would store fuel though, so they wouldn't necessarily start to suffer right away.

Dom Pedro II said:

No, actually, this is Yields (Production, Food, and Commerce) not Resources/Bonuses, and I have been working on it for a long time. The quantitative resources is a new project. However, I plan to make units require strategic resource supplies as well. In that case, I'd remove Fuel as a yield and go with Oil being required for the movement of units.

So a lack of Oil wouldn't actually decrease the combat strength of a Tank, for example, it just wouldn't be able to move until it got more Oil. The same would work for ships. Although ships should get some movement since the current alone will move a ship.

I'm figuring that a ship would be considered connected to a resupply base like a city if it were within its MP range of said city. Ships would store fuel though, so they wouldn't necessarily start to suffer right away.

Click to expand...

I see now.. Just getting over some allergies so my head was clogged earlier.

Sounds all very interesting.
I will have to look into all this more when I am not half asleep.
See ya all tomorrow.

minor brainstorm: Great Admiral. Almost completely analogous to GG, including keeping a separate bar graph in the military advisor page, but all effects are limited to naval units. Possibly to alter would be the high level promotions which would probably would favor crew efficiency (more hit points?), tactics (first strikes, withdrawls), and recon range.


Also how about capturing prize ships (in case BTS forget this)?

GoodGame said:

minor brainstorm: Great Admiral. Almost completely analogous to GG, including keeping a separate bar graph in the military advisor page, but all effects are limited to naval units. Possibly to alter would be the high level promotions which would probably would favor crew efficiency (more hit points?), tactics (first strikes, withdrawls), and recon range.

Click to expand...

Hey that sounds cool! I assume that would be Python? If so,Dom, would you be willing to do that for me.

Pf course you would get full credit (Something I have to work on with the graphics, some of it I dl'ed a long time ago and have NO idea who did it. )

Also how about capturing prize ships (in case BTS forget this)?

Click to expand...

That would be cool! I think it has been implemented already too.
So maybe only certain ship some of the time..

minor brainstorm: Great Admiral. Almost completely analogous to GG, including keeping a separate bar graph in the military advisor page, but all effects are limited to naval units. Possibly to alter would be the high level promotions which would probably would favor crew efficiency (more hit points?), tactics (first strikes, withdrawls), and recon range.

Click to expand...

If it's analagous to a great general and since great generals can already give their bonuses to naval units, what's the point?

I wasn't aware of that fact. Partly I'm suggesting that the analogy end at the level 4 promotions, as naval promotions will be more about crews, fleet tactics, and technology, I believe. At any rate, for flavor, I'd rather have Cesar lead the swordsman, and Lord Nelson lead the ships.

Thedrin said:

If it's analagous to a great general and since great generals can already give their bonuses to naval units, what's the point?

Click to expand...

Thedrin said:

If it's analagous to a great general and since great generals can already give their bonuses to naval units, what's the point?

Click to expand...

To make it more naval like.

GoodGame said:

I wasn't aware of that fact. Partly I'm suggesting that the analogy end at the level 4 promotions, as naval promotions will be more about crews, fleet tactics, and technology, I believe. At any rate, for flavor, I'd rather have Cesar lead the swordsman, and Lord Nelson lead the ships.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I always hate having Nelson leading redcoats, and then getting him killed.

I think that then we should give him a special building to build to..

Don't know if it's been posted yet, but how about a German U-Boat?

Yep, it is there. First on in group 8 (It is a generic WWI U-boat though).

I am just about to update the first post.

First off I decided to combine the two carrier classed into one, much simpler. If it is needed I amy respeperate them, but for now I will leave it like that.

I updated the first post with all the different stats of the units that have been XML'ed so far, I am keeping all that in a wordpad document so it is a simple cut'n paste.

I've been toying with the idea of adding a Armed Merchant class. Basically it is a Merchant ship that has been repossessed for military use. It would basically be exactly the same as the equivalent era's transport, but it would be more powerful (not as much as a purpose built warship though), carry nothing and the normal transport would upgrade to it. This would allow you to quickly get a temporary navy in an emergency. I might even make them upgradeable back to the original transport vessel.
What do you think? That way, as a small nation you could get a navy too, even if it is just to fill a gap while you build up the real thing.

The line would also include the Q-ship, a subhunter that looked like a merchant until they surfaced in range and then *pow* goodbye submarine.
So a cheap subhunting alternative. Of course it woulf not be as effective, but better than nothing.

What do you all think?

And tell me what you think about the balancing in the power areas/

Right now Torpedos I will give a +%150 vs 1,2, +%50 vs 3, +%200 vs 6, 10.
Torpedos II give %50, %25, and %50 respectively.
Lines 5, 8 start with Torpedos I and Nuclear Subs, Patrol Torpedo get Torpedos II also.

Depth Charges give %100 vs 8 and Sonar gives %50 vs 8. Line 9 start with both of those.

GeneralMatt said:

I've been toying with the idea of adding a Armed Merchant class. Basically it is a Merchant ship that has been repossessed for military use. It would basically be exactly the same as the equivalent era's transport, but it would be more powerful (not as much as a purpose built warship though), carry nothing and the normal transport would upgrade to it. This would allow you to quickly get a temporary navy in an emergency. I might even make them upgradeable back to the original transport vessel.
What do you think? That way, as a small nation you could get a navy too, even if it is just to fill a gap while you build up the real thing.

Click to expand...

Naval conscription maybe? You could have a button like the current draft unit button... How about instead of losing 1 population, you lose some commerce on your sea tiles for a certain number of turns to represent the loss of those ships transporting goods, and maybe you should have to pay extra maintenance costs to keep it from being abused.

As for your other question regarding the Great Admiral, I think it's a good idea, but A) it would require SDK work in addition to python, and B) I don't know anything about python... I've never gotten any python interface mod to work for me, and quite frankly, I hate it. I could help on the necessary SDK work however...

Are Great Generals currently able to lead naval units?? Because I think it would be very strange to see the general standing next to a ship in the middle of the ocean. However, I don't see any conditions in the code preventing them from leading naval units either... this would have to change with the creation of a Great Admiral. One would have to separate it so that a Great General would never be able to lead sea units or give them the XP bonuses when leading a land unit on the same tile, and Great Admirals would have the same restrictions except with sea units.

Great Admirals, I think should build Naval Academies or some similar institution which should probably give additional XP rather than increasing production speed of ships. I'm not sure what a Great Admiral specialist should do in a city however.... I'm hesitant to have it give more XP since I think that'd be overkill... To me, a military Great Specialist represents an administrative mind... it has nothing to do with talent in combat however which a general may or may not have... the American Civil War general George McClellan was a great military administrator and trained his men very well, but was lousy on the battlefield.

Similarly the British Admiral Sir Alexander Milne of the same era never had the opportunity to prove himself as a great war admiral, but he was a great administrator and helped bring the British navy into the industrial era... to me, he would qualify as a great admiral but one who did his best work behind a desk which is what a Great Admiral specialist in a city would do... maybe, therefore, a Great Admiral should give +1 XP, which wouldn't be too overpowered but not very useful either, but should also reduce upgrade costs for naval units upgraded in that city... just a thought.

Dom Pedro II said:

Naval conscription maybe? You could have a button like the current draft unit button... How about instead of losing 1 population, you lose some commerce on your sea tiles for a certain number of turns to represent the loss of those ships transporting goods, and maybe you should have to pay extra maintenance costs to keep it from being abused.

Click to expand...

Now there is a cool idea! Maybe (When BTS come out) 'drafting' merchantmen will affect the supply of the trade route for a few turns as they do not have the same amount of ship..

As for your other question regarding the Great Admiral, I think it's a good idea, but A) it would require SDK work in addition to python, and B) I don't know anything about python... I've never gotten any python interface mod to work for me, and quite frankly, I hate it. I could help on the necessary SDK work however...

Click to expand...

Ah I see, I didn't know what you did exactly. Thanks for the offer, I will probably take you up on that someday!

Are Great Generals currently able to lead naval units?? Because I think it would be very strange to see the general standing next to a ship in the middle of the ocean.

Click to expand...

Hmm, my computer is not really powerful enough to run with the extra units (at least later in the game) so I never really see the guy. But I think I did add him once, but I am not sure.

However, I don't see any conditions in the code preventing them from leading naval units either... this would have to change with the creation of a Great Admiral. One would have to separate it so that a Great General would never be able to lead sea units or give them the XP bonuses when leading a land unit on the same tile, and Great Admirals would have the same restrictions except with sea units.

Click to expand...

Definitely. We don't want the spillover from the XP that they give.

Great Admirals, I think should build Naval Academies or some similar institution which should probably give additional XP rather than increasing production speed of ships.

Click to expand...

That is a great suggestion! There is quite a few historical Naval academies in the world.

I'm not sure what a Great Admiral specialist should do in a city however.... I'm hesitant to have it give more XP since I think that'd be overkill... To me, a military Great Specialist represents an administrative mind... it has nothing to do with talent in combat however which a general may or may not have... the American Civil War general George McClellan was a great military administrator and trained his men very well, but was lousy on the battlefield.

Similarly the British Admiral Sir Alexander Milne of the same era never had the opportunity to prove himself as a great war admiral, but he was a great administrator and helped bring the British navy into the industrial era... to me, he would qualify as a great admiral but one who did his best work behind a desk which is what a Great Admiral specialist in a city would do...

Click to expand...

Some very cool ideas.

I agree that they should not give a ton of XP, and maybe (If possible) limited to 1 Great Admiral Guy per city, maybe two. As we all know you cannot have two guys commanding the same thing, it just doesn't work.

maybe, therefore, a Great Admiral should give +1 XP, which wouldn't be too overpowered but not very useful either, but should also reduce upgrade costs for naval units upgraded in that city... just a thought.

Click to expand...

What about a small bonus building ships? Not to represent the actual construction but more the bureaucratic red tape this guy can get through faster, plus he can get the material faster as the government respects his opinion and will give him what he needs more willingly?
Plus we could give the cheaper promotions.

Just a note: Right now the entire mod if at 13 MB, with %80 of the ships graphics done. So it shouldn't be too big for me to upload when done!

GeneralMatt said:

Now there is a cool idea! Maybe (When BTS come out) 'drafting' merchantmen will affect the supply of the trade route for a few turns as they do not have the same amount of ship..

Click to expand...

You could even limit the cities you can draft from to ones that have an overseas trade route.

Some very cool ideas.

I agree that they should not give a ton of XP, and maybe (If possible) limited to 1 Great Admiral Guy per city, maybe two. As we all know you cannot have two guys commanding the same thing, it just doesn't work.

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that there is no limit currently on how many Great Generals you can have in a city... but it would probably be a good limitation to add.

What about a small bonus building ships? Not to represent the actual construction but more the bureaucratic red tape this guy can get through faster, plus he can get the material faster as the government respects his opinion and will give him what he needs more willingly?
Plus we could give the cheaper promotions.

Click to expand...

Something to consider certainly..

I like the idea of Q-ships. Not too keen on merchantmen, at least no need to invent a completely new transport. Maybe just consider the current transport armed.

Dom Pedro's Naval Conscription idea is pretty neat, but maybe pro-rate it for like 10 turns of trade and then convert that to say 50% hammers used towards Armed Transports? With the effect being to shut the trade route down completely for say 20 turns (to represent the time for replacement cargo vessels to come online); Or maybe for 10 turns, plus a period of logarithmic growth to represent the trade route regrowing?

Dom Pedro II said:

You could even limit the cities you can draft from to ones that have an overseas trade route.

Click to expand...

Yes, that would be cool. Though it would really leave you in a bind if all they people that you had contact with declared war on you leaving you with absolutely no trade routes and no way to get any. In real life it would be the exact opposite, you then would be more likely to arm the ships as they really have no other use.

But this would be interesting with the Quanative Resource thing.

We would add a Operational Percentage to each Trade Route. If a Trade Route would produce say 100 , then at %100 percent it would produce 100 , %50 it would produce 50 etc. That would all be relative towards the original amount.
If you acquire resources from it (this is were the Quanative Resource come in) at %100 you get the whole # amount of the resource (Whatever it is, say 8 Coal). At %50 you would get 4 Coal etc.
Basically this percentage represents the amount of ships that are currently plying the route.
Now this percentage is what gets pillaged (Not the route itself) and of course the lower the percentage is, the less you/your partner gets.
It will slowly rebuild itself also.
Now this is where the drafting ships comes in. The more you draft, the lower the percentage falls.
And if that route is canceled for some reason (war/embargo etc) and another one to another city is not opened up, you still have those 'ships' that are no longer being used for a few turns. If you draft any ships the will come out of these before they come from any routes.

Note: Trade routes would not start at %100 efficiency.

I'm pretty sure that there is no limit currently on how many Great Generals you can have in a city... but it would probably be a good limitation to add.

Click to expand...

GoodGame said:

I like the idea of Q-ships. Not too keen on merchantmen, at least no need to invent a completely new transport. Maybe just consider the current transport armed.

Click to expand...

These armed merchantmen would use the same graphics as there transport representative. So basically they would just be considered armed..

Dom Pedro's Naval Conscription idea is pretty neat, but maybe pro-rate it for like 10 turns of trade and then convert that to say 50% hammers used towards Armed Transports? With the effect being to shut the trade route down completely for say 20 turns (to represent the time for replacement cargo vessels to come online); Or maybe for 10 turns, plus a period of logarithmic growth to represent the trade route regrowing?

Click to expand...

Mentioned an idea above..

The problem with the Q-ships is that you'd actually have to disguise the information of the unit so that a player mistakes it for another unit.... which means that you'd also have to include a Merchant ship for it to look like and give it a function that would actually cause you to put them out to sea.

I was thinking just a new type of invisible, plus they can see subs. You wouldn't necessarily get the sub to attack you, but if you sail one of them along with a juicy looking merchant, it would be the same effect imo.

Actually to me it sounds like they are implementing it because I heard something about a privateer unit on one of the talk about this unit. Unsure whether that means that the privateer unit can capture other ships as prizes but am assuming it can... I know that BTS they were saying that the AI will now be able to use Privateers whereas previously they couldn't. Unsure if Privateer is just in a scenario or not, but I know that if it is, some great modder will work out how to get it to work in the main game...

Healz said:

Actually to me it sounds like they are implementing it because I heard something about a privateer unit on one of the talk about this unit. Unsure whether that means that the privateer unit can capture other ships as prizes but am assuming it can... I know that BTS they were saying that the AI will now be able to use Privateers whereas previously they couldn't. Unsure if Privateer is just in a scenario or not, but I know that if it is, some great modder will work out how to get it to work in the main game...

Click to expand...

Ah right! I guess then what we would have to do is make it so it cannot attack. That way the AI won't go around using them as raiders..

I forgot about that, thanks.

I am almost ready to release a Beta! I checked and zipped up atm it is only 5 MB, so that is cool! (With Dial-up and all).

I stole a few gfx from different places, going to try to get recognition out to all who I used (hope it is ok I didn't ask. )

I haven't implemented Q-ships/armed merchantmen/exploration ships yet, but the UNITCOMBAT things are there though no units yet.

Will try to get something up tonight but it IS the start of the NHL finals so don't count on too much..

Edit: Oh yes, still a lot of filler art, and not everything is implemented yet. That is why it is beta.

Things done so far:

All the Ship lines but Armed Merchantmen and Exploration ships are added.
8 Promotions that I can do atm without any Python/SDK work.
(Torpedoes I, II, Sonar, Depth Charges, Surface Raider I, II, III, Scout Planes.)
All of these have custom graphics. Some I picked up from Chamaedrys (Surface Raider I, II, III) and a few modified ones from TheLopze's airforce mod (Torpedos, I, II, Sonar, Depth Charges, Scout Planes).

Edit: Here we go.

Downlad Beta