Old Debate, New Circumstances: What do you build first?

So I guess to build that archer you're immediately researching hunting/archery instead of BW, AH etc? Why not research BW and let your settler go and get the nearest copper?

I forgot to mention that this is the normal path if I start with Hunting or if there is no Copper near me. I'd rather have archers if there's no copper around than shoot to the expensive Iron Working tech to make sure I have iron.
 
Alright, I want to present the case for building a Settler first.

FOR A NORMAL SPEED GAME ON STANDARD SIZED MAP

1.) Whereas the Worker/Warrior (or vice versa) strategy gives a faster boost in the beginning, a settler will typically provide more hammers/research over the long run of about the first 50-100 turns. I'm sure someone out there has done the math to confirm this, as I've seen the charts before, but unfortunately I just can't find them. In a nutshell, though, the rate of growth for 2 tiny cities will, within about 50 turns, outstrip the production of one city, one worker, and city tiles.

2.) If you build a worker first, (say 15 turns, avg), then grow your city (avg ~9 turns to get to Pop=2) while building a warrior, then build your settler (by that time, perhaps 17 turns), you have spent around 40 turns JUST to get your first settler out. This does not count travel time to your city's destination. Giving about 5 turns for variance and travel time, this leaves you at turn 45 to have one city at Pop 2 (maybe 3 at best), and one completely new city at pop 1.

If you build a settler first (25 turns average), and account for 5 turns worth of travel time, then by turn 30, you have 2 Cities at Pop 1. In 15 turns, both cities should be sitting at a pop 2 or 3, leaving you in a much better position by turn 45, with each city able to produce a worker in about 7 turns or so, and by turn 52, both cities are improving tiles and churning out whatever buildings/units you need.

3.) If you have a civ with an early UU that requires a special resource (like copper, iron, or horses), you can almost always reveal that resource in 25-30 turns, meaning the 2nd city you found can get you immediate access to your UU. Alternately, even if you have a late UU, being able to claim copper, horses, or iron (often in very limited number), or some other major strategic or luxury resource, can make or break the early game.

EXAMPLE: I played Darius of the Persians, (Immortals UU, requires horses). I started building a settler on turn one, left my cap unguarded while I used the scout to uncover as many tiles as possible in 25 turns. I set my research to Animal Husbandry, followed by roads. By turn 25, I've got roads, animal husbandry, and am only a few turns from finishing Horseback Riding. My searches have uncovered a horse resource about 10 spaces from my Capital, and my scout is able to meet my settler 2 spaces outside of my capital border. Scout escorts settler to horse while capital builds a worker. By the time my new city is founded, I've researched Horseback Riding and can start a warrior followed by a barracks. Once my capital finishes the worker, I use the scout to escort the worker from the capital to the horses next to the new city, where I develop the tile, place a road, and by then, I've nearly finished the stable. Meanwhile, my capital develops a warrior. About 20 turns later I've churned out 3 immortals with enough XP to give them a promo, and send them off to capture the capital of the Greeks, whom were unfortunate enough to be spotted by my scout when I was initially scoping the landscape. Within roughly 50 turns, I've founded two cities that are now at about pop=3 each, have started churning out UUs with xp, have taken over a size 5 capital city that has nicely developed tiles all around it, and I've just razed the last Greek City. My only competitor for space on the continent now gone, I can quickly escore settlers out with my immortals who can match their quick pace, and defend them from the barbarian warriors that are now roaming the countryside.

4.) Finally, most of us know by turn 50-100 if we're going to stick with the game or restart.
 
What about your difficulty level? I can't see researching Horseback Riding that early as being a good idea especially if you don't even know where copper will pop and you can't even chop rush anything. I could be missing something in your EXAMPLE, or I may have a skewed strategy myself.
 
3/5, Warrior first. 1/5, Workboat first. 1/5, Worker first.

I often find that if my first build is a worker, he ends up sitting around doing nothing for far too long. Plus, my warriors can steal workers from nearby jerks AI forgoing the need to build a worker.

But if I start with mining and have gold/gems or start with agri and have 2 sources of wheat/corn/irrigatable rice worker first gives more bang to my start.
 
What about your difficulty level? I can't see researching Horseback Riding that early as being a good idea especially if you don't even know where copper will pop and you can't even chop rush anything. I could be missing something in your EXAMPLE, or I may have a skewed strategy myself.

DL = Prince.
Horses didn't appear in a forest (if they had, I'd have researched copper instead, and still would have finished it before the new city was founded).

No need to chop-rush before the horses are harvested, and Horseback Riding finished before the horses were pasturized, and with 2 cities producing science, bronze working came next real quick, though I still didn't end up chop-rushing the immortals once I had it. I try to save chop-rushing for important stuff, like Pyramids. Military units are too disposable to sacrifice the benefits of having a forest nearby.

On that note, it seems that in BTS, forests are MUCH more important to keep around your cities than they were before.
 
Alright, I want to present the case for building a Settler first.

FOR A NORMAL SPEED GAME ON STANDARD SIZED MAP

1.) Whereas the Worker/Warrior (or vice versa) strategy gives a faster boost in the beginning, a settler will typically provide more hammers/research over the long run of about the first 50-100 turns. I'm sure someone out there has done the math to confirm this, as I've seen the charts before, but unfortunately I just can't find them. In a nutshell, though, the rate of growth for 2 tiny cities will, within about 50 turns, outstrip the production of one city, one worker, and city tiles.

2.) If you build a worker first, (say 15 turns, avg), then grow your city (avg ~9 turns to get to Pop=2) while building a warrior, then build your settler (by that time, perhaps 17 turns), you have spent around 40 turns JUST to get your first settler out. This does not count travel time to your city's destination. Giving about 5 turns for variance and travel time, this leaves you at turn 45 to have one city at Pop 2 (maybe 3 at best), and one completely new city at pop 1.

You do realise that if you research BW first you can chop with that worker. I can't imagine the achingly long time it takes to build a settler first in a size 1 city actually gets a settler out faster than building a worker first and then chopping another worker who then both chop 2 more trees for a settler. It probably takes around the same amount of time, except in your case you have 2 cities and no workers and a few more trees, in my case I have 2 cities and 2 workers (who are by now chopping a settler for a 3rd city which you can't do).
 
^^^but no trees for wonder chopping. I see thelibra's reasoning for his order, however, I just don't see the merits of going for Horseback Riding this early in the game. I usually trade mathematics for it and some gold once i have construction.

@thelibra: How do you have such great research times with 2 early cities, one of which whose maintenance has to be devastating within the first 75 turns of play (more on marathon). Unless you have an oasis, or some gold tiles. Considering you have 2 cities with no worked tiles, how is your research so advanced?
 
^^^but no trees for wonder chopping. I see thelibra's reasoning for his order, however, I just don't see the merits of going for Horseback Riding this early in the game. I usually trade mathematics for it and some gold once i have construction.

@thelibra: How do you have such great research times with 2 early cities, one of which whose maintenance has to be devastating within the first 75 turns of play (more on marathon). Unless you have an oasis, or some gold tiles. Considering you have 2 cities with no worked tiles, how is your research so advanced?


In regards to the HR, it was because I didn't know if I'd need the additional 2xp from the stables to get me a +25% vs. melee or first aid. As it turns out, I really didn't. Combat 1 was enough to do the trick, but unfortunately at the time I had no way of knowing that would be the case.

As for the great research times, I was super effing lucky, and playing Darius, who is Financial/Organized. Both my first city and second city sat next to an oasis, and one of those oases popped the Healing Springs event that gives it an extra 1g/turn. So I got the benefit of 3f/4g from one and 3f/3g from the other.

So I suppose starting position and Leader play a huge role in whether or not one would choose Settler first. That's a good point. I tend to play wealthy civs, because I'm better at money than war. BtS did nothing to break me of this habit since now random events are so dependant on the amount of money you have in the bank.
 
Organized leaders can easily handle an early ancient era 2 city civ. You went with Zara, and he's a beast for expansion and teching. That makes a lot of sense. Plus the 2 oasis! I would have gone with a second settler as my first build as well. That was well played. One of Zara's best qualities is his ability to expand far and wide while keeping a strong military and great tech level. Even the AI is able to turn Zara into the top contender in ALL my games.
 
WHOA! :eek: I'd never really looked at Zara's traits before! Creative/Organized + those monuments? Oh my. That's my scene! He almost seems overpowered. I'm definitely using him next.
 
He's incredible. There's definitely a reason that the AI is able to be so advanced tech-wise and maintain a huge empire and huge army. This is the AI Zara in almost every one of my games.
 
warrior to explore for enemy/resources.
worker to chop barracks, mine copper/iron.
settler to claim copper/iron.
axemen for attack.
 
He's incredible. There's definitely a reason that the AI is able to be so advanced tech-wise and maintain a huge empire and huge army. This is the AI Zara in almost every one of my games.

Makes sense. So I can add him to my list of possible favorites, along with Gil and Willem (I love Creative)
 
If you like Willem, you'll love Zara. I'm a huge Willem fan on water maps. Zara works really well on all map types. If islands, financial utilizes the large amount of ocean tiles while organized allows you to settle your first expansion cities as far as necessary to claim good spots. If pangea, organized allows you to expand as far out as you can to claim the most land while the financial trait allows for your coastal cities to be economic beasts with any luxury resources giving another boost. Most other map types are hybrids of these two extremes and so Zara's bonuses are spread equally
 
Well, actually, I was playing Darius of the Persians, not Zara. He's Organized/Financial.

But this Zara sounds intriguing. What's the civ Zara is in?
 
Organized/Financial is another I'd enjoy, but not as much as Organized/Creative.

Zara is the leader of the Ethiopians.
 
What difficulty does that work on? I usually play immortal, and that kind of rush would do nothing more than give some of my opponents a few exp points, and you would stifle your own expansion very much so.

I always go the maximum fastest expansion route, depending on my starting resources/techs. A worker is only first if i have an irrigated food source and agriculture. Workboats/seafood is my favorite, but luck rarely gives me a coastal start. I time my first worker 1-2 turns away from bronzeworking, chop the second, chop 2 settlers, chop another worker, build a warrior then grow my capital to happy cap, chop more settlers/workers until I have around 6-10+ cities, and cottage everything like mad except for a few production centers.

That was my strategy in noble when i had vanilla. When i got BTS i moved up to Prince and so i think i'd say, it depands on the circumstience now.
 
He's incredible. There's definitely a reason that the AI is able to be so advanced tech-wise and maintain a huge empire and huge army. This is the AI Zara in almost every one of my games.

In my games he usually expands like crazy and get his economy staggered early. He picks up pace throughout the game but I found in my games that it's during the Middle Ages is when to strike, he is a evil neighbor in modern age if left alone.

On topic:
Fishing Boats if I got seafood+fishing. Probably a worker after, the faster I can chop the better.
Otherwise I go worker and then it depends. If I can get BW fast and got plenty of forests I'll probably pop two workers.
Workers for developing food income and chopping is my first preference. Chop and whip. I play with raging Barbarians so if I do not get Horses or Bronze I'll get Archery and spam archers until Im safe. Chopwhip some wonder that fits the setup of the game asap .

I find that building a settler too early is of little use. You get maintenance and you don't have the worker to develop it. City with worker a few turns later is more useful IMO.
 
I start with a scout, if I don't have hunting I start with a barracks and switch to a scout. I normally wait till a population of 2 before I make a worker and a pop of 3 before I make a settler (played Civ III one to many times)
 
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