CIV103: The Espionage Economy at Prince Level

oyzar said:

Does the AI even tech remotely fast enough to run espionage economy on prince? :S

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You can run an espionage economy at Settler level if you want ... you just aren't going to win the space race (because no one will).

The point of the game is to demonstrate the EE at a lower level for more players to relate to it. It would probably be a little more instructive at Monarch level, but for some reason, a lot of Noble and Prince level players think that strategies for a Monarch game don't necessarily apply for them, or that a Monarch game isn't very relevant for a Noble level player. The only reason I am playing at Prince level is because it seems to be what lower level players want, and that is ok by me.

I am going to do an Emperor level EE game soon, and that should be more enlightening for Monarch and above players, and also will probably do a better job of showing the power of an EE.

So what is the power of an EE? For one, although it takes a little longer, the Espionage multipliers for a city are better than those for science. In addition, by generating lots of EPs, it takes less EPs to steal a tech than to research it, and by mid/ mid-late game, this can drop as low as 60% of the cost of researching a tech. So not only does your commerce get multiplied more, it is worth more!

Another advantage is that unless culture is needed, expensive libraries and universities (and Oxford) are completely unnecessary. These hammers can go to spies and military. You can have a large military, and plenty of cash to support it. Generally, markets and grocers are built in most big cities for health and happiness. In a Science based Cottage Economy, these buildings give small returns on their gold multipliers. In an EE you will usually have a higher % of commerce going to gold (for your larger army, and also because you don't need all the EPs you can produce). Although you never get better than tech parity, you can still field some vastly superior armies, mostly because of the luxury of having lots of gold. You can stockpile CR2 macemen for a long time, and then have a huge army of CR2 grens or rifles or infantry when you upgrade them. A big advantage of numbers plus superior promotions is really just as good as a tech lead when it comes to military.

So we will see how it plays out. And after this game, I think the Emperor game will be even more fun.

so I'm just wondering where do you leave your science slider at? At what point do you put it at 0% and just use straight espionage

an emperor game will certainly be interesting, especially given the higher tech pace that the AI follows at the higher levels.

i dont have BTS myself, so i cant exactly comment on what to do, but there are certain things that stick out in my mind about your current situation.

1. Definitely settle the 2x fish/cow city asap. if you don't get it, somehow Willem will.

2. Don't pollute you GP pool if you can avoid it (you already know this but still it bears mentioning), since you are running an EE, esp points and Great spies will play a huge roll in your advancement technologically, this is apparent even without having BTS to play.

3. I think, and take this as you will since i don't have BTS, that waiting until alphabet (that enables spies and some of the wider range of espionage abilities right?) before making the decision to attack Willem might be prudent. if you can see that he's going to be useful as a teching patsy then you can make use of him, if not, you can annihilate him, no big deal.

4. With only Willem to rely on for tech stealing (and if you decide to kill him, you only have yourself.) then you need to seek other people to steal from. get sailing (if you haven't yet) and work towards optics and carracks so you can drop some spies on other continents to grab whatever your best opponent has and go from there. IFthe powers that be decide that somehow you have a tech mastery already without working the EE at all, restart the game, or go up to your emperor level game because this one is done and no one is going to learn anything.

cripp7 said:

so I'm just wondering where do you leave your science slider at? At what point do you put it at 0% and just use straight espionage

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It depends. Sometimes a more expensive tech is so important that you want to self research it before you grab alphabet and start stealing. 2 I can think of off the top of my head are Iron Working when you need to clear jungle, and Metal Casting when you have 2 or 3 mining resources (because forges become the most efficient way to raise happy cap). Hereditary Rule is another.

Basically, you want to use Espionage as soon as possible because it is a more efficient use of commerce than the science slider. But you don't want to steal techs that are too cheap, as there is also a hammer cost to Espionage ... spies. And early in the game, before your EP spending is huge, the chances of having spies caught is at its greatest.

Once you have Alphabet, start cranking up the slider, but keep 10 or 20% science to research the cheap techs. I would say techs like math and currency are getting expensive enough to steal. Anything as expensive as alphabet I would definitely steal.

I'm almost done with round 3. I think you will all enjoy it. It's been great fun, 2 wars with Willem, and lots of tech stealing. Also, some very instructive military maneuvers.

Round 3: Turns 101-155, 350BC to 900AD

End of Round 3 Save

Turn 101 Great Spy builds Scotland Yard in Lisbon.

Turn 103 I am building military (axes) in all cities unless otherwise mentioned. Oporto starts on Monastery. Meditation completed, start researching Writing.

Turn 105 Great Lighthouse built in a far away land.

Turn 106 Writing completed, start on Sailing. I could research CoL in only 13 turns for courthouses, but I don’t really want to found another religion. Right now, the unknown AI have only 1. I would rather they have at least the possibility for religious strife. Oporto completes monastery and starts on library.

Turn 107 I start on a missionary in Lisbon. Next will be a settler for the 2 fish spot.

Turn 108 Confucianism founded in a distant land. Now I can grab Code of Laws. Willem completed Construction and is now on HBR. If I don’t self-research CoL, it may be a long time before I get it …. Once the religion is founded, the AI greatly drops its priority on CoL.

Turn 112 Guimaraes starts on Library (for culture, and a little extra research bonus). I have enough axes at the moment. Lisbon finishes settler and starts on Work Boat for new city.

Turn 113 Lisbon completes Work Boat and starts on Lighthouse.

Turn 115 Coimbra founded at the fish/fish/cow site. It starts on a granary. Willem starts on Monotheism. He moves a stack of 3 swords, 3 axes, and a cat 1 square west of The Hague. It would be odd for him to attack as my power is higher, we are only at –1 relations, and don’t even have a close borders penalty. Just to make sure he doesn’t attack right away, I demand he convert to Judaism. This moves us to +1 relations, and ensures peace for 10 turns. He could never take one of my cities, but he could pillage some cottages around Oporto. I check on all my cities, and notice Oporto’s governor has assigned a scientist … none of that … go work that plains forest until I have more cottages.

Turn 118 CoL completed, start on Alphabet. Lisbon completes second work boat for Coimbra, and starts on Courthouse. Oporto switches to courthouse. Guimaraes has one turn left on library and then will start on courthouse.

Turn 120 Willem starts on Monarchy.

Turn 121 Silver discovered near Lisbon!

Turn 122 Colossus built in a faraway land.

Turn 123 Lisbon and Oporto complete courthouses and start on more axemen. Both cities hire spy specialists, and the next great spy is now only 32 turns away. Screenshots of these 2 cities:

Lisbon:



Oporto:



Turn 124 Lisbon starts on worker. Oporto starts building spies. Alphabet is completed, and I start on Iron Working. I put the espionage slider at 50% (81/turn), and science at 10%. IW will be complete in 18 turns. I want to get math for aqueducts and construction for catapults ASAP.

Turn 125 Guimaraes completes courthouse and starts on walls. Why walls? I will want them eventually for castles, and Guimaraes will be the most difficult to defend if Willem sneak attacks. Also, they take 3 turns to build, and the city will grow in 3 turns, after which it will build a couple settlers for the peninsula. Until Civil Service for chain irrigation, Guimaraes will stay at size 10. Once it grows, it will stop working the forest, and work the Eastern elephant and a town I am building 1E of the city. Note that I have purposely not built a cottage on the one riverside plain. This will be used for chain irrigation, both for this city, and the next city to the west.
Screenshot of Guimaraes:



Turn 126 The peace treaty with Willem expires, and he wastes no time and declares war and switches back to Hinduism. Oporto and Lisbon switch to axes. I guess the expansion will have to wait a bit. I send 2 axes from Lisbon to Oporto, and 3 from Oporto towards Guimaraes, which has only 4. The trick will be trying to keep enough axes in my cities for happiness while preventing too much pillaging. Willem has moved 2 axes and 2 swords towards Guimaraes.

Turn 127 A screenshot of the situation:



I have highlighted Willem’s main battle group, 2 swords, an axe and 2 cats. The other group in the forest N of Guimaraes is 2 axes and 2 swords. There is also an axe on my copper, and The Hague still has an axe and a sword. SE of Opporto is one axe, 2S of Oporto are 3 axes, you can see 2 axes on the way from Lisbon. Guimaraes has 4 axes and a warrior, and there are still 5 axes and a spear in Oporto, and 2 axes and a warrior in Lisbon. The question is how best to handle the situation. I want to be able to bring enough force to eliminate a stack hopefully without getting pillaged much.

Here’s what I came up with … I moved the 3 axes S of Oporto S, SE towards Guimaraes. They will be able to help with the Southern stack of Willem’s if it moves W or SW. It will be across a river, but I plan on using all 4 axes in Guimaraes first, so I should be able to take this stack out with 7 axes. The 2 axes that were coming from Lisbon, I moved E,SE to the square the other 3 vacated. I want them across the river, so they can next turn move 2 squares to do one of 3 things … head towards Guimaraes, garrison Oporto, or reach squares E of Oporto. The lone axe I moved to join these 2. I also had a warrior fogbusting and hoping to reach Woodsman 3 NW of Oporto, and he heads to Oporto for happiness.

Turn 128 Willem made some odd moves. He moved an axe back into the Hague. That helps me a lot. The 2 swords and cats move one west, rather than joining the axe on the copper. The other units stayed put, the axe predictably pillaging the copper (which doesn’t really bother me as I have the source by Lisbon). These moves actually allow me to consolidate my forces such that I should be able to destroy any stack in range that is on flat terrain. I move the 3 axes into Guimaraes, giving me 7 axes against a stack of 2 swords and 2 axes. I move all 6 axes out of Oporto 2S to join the other 3. These 9 should easily be able to kill 2 swords, 2 cats, and an axe. All 3 axes in Lisbon head towards Oporto. Next turn, the road on the silver will be complete, and I will get +1 happy. Lisbon has 3 unhappy citizens, and Oporto 4, but that won’t last long, and I shouldn’t lose any population over it. I’d rather lose some stored grain than have a village pillaged.

Turn 129 Temple of Artemis built in a faraway land. Coimbra completes Granary with help of a chop, and starts on lighthouse. Willem’s 2 swords and 2 cats move 1W, all his other units stay put. My axes attack the swords and cats. The first 2 axes I promote to combat 1 and they defeat the cats. The second 2 axes get about 72% odds unpromoted against the swords, so I leave them unpromoted so that they can take CR2 after the battle. Combat 1 would not have increased the odds by much, while CR2 will be a great help in taking a city. I win all 4 battles. I get my first Great General after only 3 battles! Apparently the IMP bonus to great general emergence and the Great Wall bonus for battles within cultural borders multiply, as I got 12 Great General points for earning 3 exp! Nice! I also kill the axe on my copper, my first axe losing, and the second winning. Willem’s axe was combat 2. I move the remaining 3 axes into Oporto, along with one from Lisbon, and the other 2 from Lisbon go back to Lisbon for happiness.

Turn 130 I settle my Great General in Lisbon. I move all my injured axemen onto the copper tile. One of the combat 1 axes takes the medic promotion. The other takes the shock promotion to be a stack defender. All cities are again happy. Willem’s southern stack is still hanging out on that forest square.

Turn 131 Guimaraes finishes axeman and starts making spies. I want to start stealing some techs. A great general born in a distant land … good news that there is war going on overseas.

Turn 133 Christianity founded in a distant land. Oporto starts working on spies. Lisbon starts building some galleys. I go to talk to Willem, and he offers archery and IW for peace. I agree. I would rather steal construction and have cats before I take his Creative cities. I start researching compass.

Turn 134 Coimbra finishes lighthouse and starts on Moai statues. Iron is also discovered near Coimbra, on a desert hill. I’ve never seen this before … anyone else think it rare to find iron on a desert hill?

Turn 135 Willem starts researching Currency. I was hoping he would do that.

Turn 137 Lisbon goes back to building axes. I now have 1600 Eps on Willem, and go back to max science to work towards optics.

Turn 138 I now have 4 spies built, and move them all towards The Hague.

Turn 139 Lisbon starts working on chariots. They are cheaper than axes, and will probably be quite useful, as the AI tends to favour the mounted unit techs. I could mass upgrade to knights in the near future.

Turn 140 I finally get my warrior promoted to Woodsman 3.

Turn 141 Compass completed, start on MC. Lisbon starts on harbor.

Turn 144 Guimaraes starts working on Settler.

Turn 145 Coimbra completes Moai statues and starts on Harbor. Lisbon completes Harbor and returns to building chariots.

Turn 146 My beaker cost for mathematics is 357 beakers. I can steal it for 128 EP. My first spy failed, but the second was successful.

Turn 147 Harbor completed in Coimbra, start on Aqueduct. I steal Construction from Willem. Check out the screenshot:



180 EP for construction ... not bad. Lisbon makes that in 9 turns with the slider at 0%


Turn 148 Lisbon starts on Aqueduct.

Turn 149 Oporto starts on Aqueduct. Guimaraes finishes settler and starts on another.

Turn 150 Coimbra completes Aqueduct and starts on Temple. Willem completes Currency and starts on Aesthetics. I steal currency from him.

Turn 151 Willem declares war again. He invades towards Oporto with a force of 3 axes, 3 swords, and a cat. I have 11 axes in the vicinity. I found Evora 1S of the Elephants W of Guimaraes. A screenshot of Willem’s attack:



I wilcome this attack because it means a lot more great general points for me, and I have plenty of military here.

Turn 152 Willem attacks my stack of axes and loses 2 swords, an axe and a cat while only defeating one of my axes. I kill Willem’s remaining axe on the grassland mine E of Oporto. I move 2 axes each to that square, and the square south of it that has my main force damaged from his initial attack. Oporto is back to 4 unhappies, but I move 4 axes from Guimaraes towards Oporto.

Turn 153 Willem counter attacks and loses a sword and axe then kills one of my axes. A Great Prophet is born in Lisbon. This is truly bad luck. The city governor kept wanting to have a priest specialist, and I think I missed it for about 6 turns. I loaded up an autosave and saw there was about a 15% chance for a Great Prophet, but that’s what happened. Guess I’ll have a shrine now. I use the GP to build the Jewish shrine. I couldn't believe it when I saw the Prophet born. I was being really anal about checking my cities when they grew, or at least so I thought.

Turn 154 Lisbon starts on forge.

Turn 155 I am now about 13 turns from having optics. Willem’s tech rate is dropping. He is spending more on espionage, founded a couple junk cities, and keeps going to war with me. So I think it is time to take him out. End of Round 3.

I was going to post a screenshot of Coimbra, but Civ just crashed, so I'll stop here and reboot.

Some really nice defense action here! Poor Willy... He is so desperately trying to kill you, but no matter how hard he tries, he can't make a scratch on you .

Yeah looks like there is no use for Willy anymore.. Time to show him how to kick some butt

Btw thanks for doing this game, it's really fun to follow it!

Very nice tactics , goading him into fighting on your own land so you get no WW and extra GG pts from the Great Wall.

I suggest you get Horseback Riding and build stables for War Elephants. With Combat 2 promotion they will be excellent heavyweight attackers and stack defenders and have a long shelflife. The trouble with having a lot of axes is that they will get obsoleted soon and are too expensive to upgrade to macemen or grenadiers, except in small numbers.

Also start building some archers for garrison ... they are the most cost effective way to get happiness. Using axemen for happiness is distracting, they should be bona fide active defenders (as you're using them here) and in the SoD you'll be using soon.

Coimbra:



Coimbra was founded on turn 115 ... pretty nice for a 40 turn old city. The power of high food + production + quick tile development. Lisbon did quite a bit to accelerate Coimbra's growth by building 2 workboats and a missionary for it.

A few things to note about round 3:

The first war with Willem was very short, but I think very instructive for those who have trouble with warfare. I wish I had saved the game at that point, but it is too late now. I described every move in detail. The first key was when I saw Willem move a stack out of The Hague. When the AI makes a stack of swords, axes, and cats, and starts moving it, that almost always means they are going to attack a city. Since there are no other AIs around, and no barb cities, that meant the target was me. Since I really wanted a few more axes in hand before a war, I made a demand of Willem, which guarantees 10 turns of peace. The second thing of note was keeping my army in flexible positions. Willem had a stack moving towards Guimaraes, and apparently towards Oporto, but it was possible the Oporto stack would head towards Guimaraes. The key move of this battle was when I moved all of Oporto's axes 2S. This was a key move because in order to have the advantage, I needed to attack Willem's stack first (since he had catapults). Because of the river, and not having construction yet, I needed my troops on Willem's side of the river for mobility. Because of his cats I needed to stay 2 squares away when I ended my turn.

Another thing to mention is the importance of checking your cities when they grow when you are trying to generate a specific type of Great Person. Once a city gets to it's happy cap, the governor will generally try to limit growth by assigning specialists. Over and over, I had to unassign priests and scientists in Oporto and Lisbon. I missed one for a few turns, and though the chances were low I got a Great Prophet. Normally, I don't worry about this so much, because most games, I don't mind generating Great Prophets, Scientist, Engineers, or even Merchants. But an EE is completely different, and Great Spies are far and away superior to all other Great People.

At this point, I am planning on starting to take out Willem. Since I don't have drama for theatres, it will probably be wise to do it in several short decisive battles. I will use spies to drop defenses, and bring a few cats to soften up troops if necessary. I am thinking of razing The Hague, then getting peace, then taking Amsterdam, then likely peace again, and then finishing off Willem. I might take Utrecht in the second wave as well in order to take the cultural pressure off Amsterdam.

So Round 4 should be some more war against Willem, and contact with the rest of the world. I will probably end the round at the point I've discovered everyone else, as that will be a key point to discuss Espionage strategy. I think more skill is involved in using one's EPs wisely than generating them in the first place.

UncleJJ said:

Very nice tactics , goading him into fighting on your own land so you get no WW and extra GG pts from the Great Wall.

I suggest you get Horseback Riding and build stables for War Elephants. With Combat 2 promotion they will be excellent heavyweight attackers and stack defenders and have a long shelflife. The trouble with having a lot of axes is that they will get obsoleted soon and are too expensive to upgrade to macemen or grenadiers, except in small numbers.

Also start building some archers for garrison ... they are the most cost effective way to get happiness. Using axemen for happiness is distracting, they should be bona fide active defenders (as you're using them here) and in the SoD you'll be using soon.

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Good points Uncle. I already have the forces I need, save a cat or 2, just need to free them up from garrison duty. I'll start building archers. I should be able to get HBR from Willem after I raze The Hague (which will be resettled a little to the E for a late game powerhouse production facility (too bad there is no river). I suppose I was a bit complacent with the military builds here. I should have started building archers much sooner.

correct me if I'm wrong, but wont your city Guimaraes allow you to irrigate the rice by chaining the irrigation through itself? if so, you can cottage those two tiles that you have reserved for chain irrigation and squeeze the extra commerce out of them, unless there is something further down the peninsula that I don't see that you also want to get fresh water to.

ranion said:

correct me if I'm wrong, but wont your city Guimaraes allow you to irrigate the rice by chaining the irrigation through itself? if so, you can cottage those two tiles that you have reserved for chain irrigation and squeeze the extra commerce out of them, unless there is something further down the peninsula that I don't see that you also want to get fresh water to.

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You are right ... I can chain irrigate through the city. I missed that. And I can irrigate further down the peninsula though the city too. Good catch.

Round 4, Turns 155-185, 900AD - 1250AD

End of Round 4 Save

Turn 155 I move 2 axes from Guimaraes towards Oporto. They will free up promoted axes to take the Hague. 5 spies in Oporto head to the Hague. The unpromoted axes outside Oporto move back into the city.

Turn 157 Lagos is founded on the tip of the peninsula just south of Lisbon. It starts on a Granary. 3 of my workers are here roading and developing the 2 peninsular cities. Coimbra finishes forge and starts on The Hanging Gardens. The healthy and pop from this wonder will be welcome, and I have a plan for the Great Engineer Points … someday rushing the Kremlin for its spy specialist slots. It should take quite a while for the Great Person to arrive here, and should not mess up my Great Spy generation much.

Turn 158 A stupid Dutch sword attacks a shock axe I moved on the hill 2E of Oporto and dies. Willem moves a shock axe 1W of The Hague. A dutch galley appears near Guimaraes. Lisbon finishes forge and starts on a workboat for Lagos. Oporto finishes aqueduct and starts on market. I promote a combat 1 axe to shock and move it onto the hill with the other, along with my woodsman 3 warrior to heal the first axe.

Turn 159 The dutch axe wisely returns to The Hague. Lisbon completes workboat, and starts on trireme to deal with that dutch galley.

Turn 160 Guimaraes finishes forge and starts building archers. I finish Machinery and start on Optics. Willem finished Aesthetics and is researching Meditation. After the war, I will consider gifting him some cheap, useless techs in the hope he starts researching something useful to me. I start moving a stack to take The Hague, comprised of 8 axes, a catapult, and my woodsman 3 warrior.

Turn 162 Willem manages to get 2 more swords and a catapult to The Hague for defense. It now has 3 swords, 2 axes, an archer and a catapult defending it, and it is on a hill. I decide to attack anyway. I can bring more axes up for another run in a few turns. I use a spy and drop the defenses for 150 Eps. I promote my cat to CR2, and attack, dropping the archer to 1.4, and taking 0.5 off all the axes and swords. Even my CR2 axe has only 42% against his shock axe fortified on a hill. Guess I should have considered the odds more closely. I retreat my forces. If I attack, all I am going to do is likely lose half my axes and not have enough to finish the city off (a few more reinforcements are on the way). And increase my war weariness. Well, it won’t take long to build a few cats and xbows.

Turn 163 I have 2 spies left in The Hague, and I try to steal HBR for some elephants, but both fail. Guimaraes starts building spies. Lisbon completes a second Trireme and starts on catapults.

Turn 164 Coimbra completes the Hanging Gardens. Lisbon is now size 17, Oporto 16, and Coimbra 13. Coimbra starts on a courthouse.

Turn 165 Evora and Lagos both finish granaries and start on lighthouses. Oporto completes its marketplace and starts on spies.

Turn 166 A couple of my workers start converting 2 of Lisbon’s grassland forests to workshops. At the moment, this actually reduces the yield of the tiles, but Lisbon is getting very big, and guilds should not be far away. I foresee Lisbon being more of a production city in the long run than a commerce city.

Turn 167 I complete Optics and start on HBR. Lisbon starts on a Carrack. Willem has completed both Aesthetics and Literature and started on alphabet.

Turn 168 Coimbra completes courthouse and starts on carrack. Willem attacks my stack E of Oporto (I moved my axes to the hill square 2E of Oporto) with 2 cats and 2 axes. I lose one axe. Another Great General is born who again moves to Lisbon to settle. I upgrade one of my triremes to a carrack for only 50 gold.

Turn 169 Willem moves a lone catapult to the square NE of my stack of axes. I kill it as it has no possible reinforcements within range. Willem has built a fair-sized force in The Hague … 5 swords, 4 cats, and 4 axes.

Turn 170 I complete HBR and start on Calendar. Coimbra and Lisbon start on stables. Willem moves his 4 catapults 1W of The Hague. I will have bad odds if I attack, with them on a hill. One is combat 1, the others CR1. But if I stay put and let them attack, they will probably all die against my axes fortified on a hill. He also moves 4 swords to the hill by my lone axe that killed the cat. I just retreat him back to my stack.

Turn 171 I discover Churchill not far at all SW of Coimbra. He has calendar and aesthetics. I immediately change my slider to 50% espionage, 0 science, and put all Eps towards Churchill. I still have about 1600 Eps on Willem. Willem moves his cats back into The Hague. Coimbra finishes stables and starts on barracks. Lisbon finishes stables and starts on Jumbos.

Turn 172 My trireme defeats a Dutch galley. A stupid Dutch sword attacks my hill fortified shock axe E of Oporto. Coimbra completes barracks and starts on elephants.

Turn 173 Guimaraes has built 5 spies and starts on a crossbow. Lagos completes lighthouse and starts on harbor. Willem has moved 4 cats and 2 axes W of The Hague. So I move my stack 1W, out of range.

Turn 174 Evora completes lighthouse and starts on Harbor. Oporto starts on catapult. Willem shows his lack of skill as a military tactician and moves 4 catapults and an axe onto my copper tile E of Oporto. I promote my 2 cats in Oporto to Barrage 2 and attack. Both withdraw, seriously damaging 2 cats and an axe. I promote 2 combat 1 axes to charge, and attack. Both win. Then I use some CR axes and finish them off. I am now only 16 exp from my 3rd Great General.

Turn 175 I meet Suryavarman, who is Buddhist, and has no extra useful techs. I find him a long ways directly SE of Guimaraes. I am almost ready to take The Hague, so I move 5 spies from Guimaraes and 3 from Oporto towards The Hague.

Turn 176 Willem moves a sword and 3 axes onto the hill 2E of Oporto.

Turn 177 I can’t control my war elephants in Oporto. They have battle lust and attack Willem’s swords. Both die. But the elephants forge an opening, and my cats attack, one withdrawing, the other dieing. My axes decide they can carry the day, and 4 win while one loses. A new great general is born.

Turn 178 Evora completes harbor and starts on courthouse. My third great general settles in Lisbon.

Turn 179 I meet Pacal. He is the tech leader so far, with feudalism and theology. I also meet Shaka.

Turn 181 I seem to have enough military for the moment, so Coimbra starts on market.

Turn 182 I meet the last AI, Sitting Bull. Lagos completes Harbor and starts on courthouse. I prove the world is round.

Turn 183 Sury founds Taoism. I am ready to take The Hague.

Turn 184 Lisbon starts on market. I move my stack near The Hague. It is 5 elephants, 5 axes, 4 catapults, and 2 crossbows.

Turn 185 The Hague has 2 axes, a sword, archer, and a cat. I use a spy to drop defenses (first failed). While I have spies here, and the city is jewish, I steal Calendar, and attempt to steal Aethetics, losing 2 spies along the way. I take The Hague, losing an elephant and a cat. I make peace with Willem, getting Aesthetics, 120 gold, and 2 gpt. War weariness is not high, only 87, but I am out of spies, and need to build some before taking more Dutch cities. Oporto and Coimbra are now building spies, and Guimaraes archers. With all the AI met, time to end the round and assess the situation.

The foreign relations situation: Pacal, Sitting Bull, Sury, and Shaka are all on a very large continent pretty much half way around the world. All are Buddhists, and all are Please or Friendly with each other with the exception of Shaka and Sitting Bull who have been at war with each other (but are not at war now). It appears that Shaka got Sury to attack Sitting Bull as well. Churchill is on his own island not far SW of Coimbra. I can get Open Borders with Pacal, which would allow me to send some Jewish Missionaries over to convert a city. Since he is the Buddhist founder, it is unlikely I could get him to convert to Judaism. Churchill is Confucian.
I can’t trade with anyone because they won’t trade with me.

A screenshot of the world discovered so far:



And the demographics screen:



As you can see, I am doing fine, have the strongest military, by far the highest population, strong production and decent commerce.

I would say buddy up with Pacal, set your espionage against him and wipe out everyone else starting with the weakest power-wise. Unless you think Churchill is closer and can tech fast enough to prove worthwhile thus making for shorter trips for your spies.

Is it possible to airlift units into opponent cities who you have open borders with/good relations? If so getting flight early might be useful.

futurehermit said:

I would say buddy up with Pacal, set your espionage against him and wipe out everyone else starting with the weakest power-wise. Unless you think Churchill is closer and can tech fast enough to prove worthwhile thus making for shorter trips for your spies.

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Pacal seems to be teching much faster than anyone else, so he is the most likely target for espionage. Churchill is the best military target after Willem since he is so close. IIRC, Churchill has only Literature for me to steal. For the moment, I think max espionage against Pacal to steal from him, then assess the possibilities after I know more of the map. An interesting possibility would be to capture the Buddhist holy city, move the capital there, adopt Buddhism, and be able to steal cheaper and be friends with more AIs.

futurehermit said:

Is it possible to airlift units into opponent cities who you have open borders with/good relations? If so getting flight early might be useful.

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Hehe, it is Prince level. I doubt it gets that far.

Yeah on prince that is a good point, but perhaps at higher levels?

Definitely, although I don't know if you can airlift to an allied Civ's city. I've never tried it. But flight would still be useful for airlifting to a new continent, not to mention many carriers filled with fighters.

I started playing a practice game on Emperor this morning with Lizzy. The one other EE game I played was on emperor as well, and turned out to be relatively easy. I like Liz for an EE game ... financial is the best for EE to get the most EPs, and Philisophical means quick Great Spies once they can be generated. On Emperor level, the AI typically builds the GW so fast that it just isn't a good idea in most games to go for it. If you have stone in the capital's FC, sure, or if you have the right combo of starting resources and techs to research masonry very early without seriously harming development (and can also get BW early to chop).

In the game I started this morning with Liz, the Great Wall was built in a faraway land the same turn I researched Masonry ... and I delayed masonry only after BW and AGR. The AI built it before turn 40 which is very fast.

But with a PHI leader, and on Emp level, CoL can be stolen early, and after courthouses, if 3 cities run a spy specialist, you get GS1 17 turns after running the specialist, GS2 34 turns after running a specialist in city 2, and GS3 50 turns after running the specialist in city 3. compare that to 50 turns non philisophical with the Great Wall. At higher levels, and being PHI, stealing CoL, and building courthouses and running specialists gives 3 Great Spies almost as quickly as 1 for a non-PHI leader on lower levels with the Great Wall.

Yeah, that sounds good to me. After courthouses, what is the next building that allows spy specialists?

futurehermit said:

Yeah, that sounds good to me. After courthouses, what is the next building that allows spy specialists?

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Pretty sure it is jails, with Representation. Also give sweet +50% to EP in city.

What do you make of Gilgamesh for an EE? Pretty bad traits, but a great UB for this and the UU is good for early rushing.
I played a SE with Willem and had Gilgamesh as a neighbour. He was pretty peaceful although I boxed him in early, but he stole a couple of techs from me during the course of the game and had a massive lead in EPs through it all.