Immortal Univesity VI: Carolus Magnus of the Holy Roman Empire

My tech position should be much better once the Scientists start flowing -- I should have run more Scientists sooner, so I could use the Philo bulb and trade. Still I should be fine -- winning liberalism is still possible.

Your games continue to teach me a lot, thanks for posting.

I agree that this is a fun game

Nice move with the Palace relocation -- I'll have to see if something similar makes sense in my game.

A strike as soon as you enter, eh? If you can make it to the first city, pillage gold should keep you afloat for a while ...

OK, kind of a long session but I promise I am done for the day. Really want to let others catch up and see what they have going on.

I really needed to 1) finish Sury this session; 2) light the Menorah with Judaism; 3) pop some GS's; 4) and not suffer any more negative events/crap luck. I think I achieved 2 or maybe 2 1/2. I don't know if it will be enough.

200AD - GP born. I was hoping for a GE but I just settle him in the capital to get something out of Rep. Prague is founded on the gold site.
225AD - Nice! HC DoW's Joao.
250AD - HC demands Aesthetics, I refuse.
- Its a world war! Sury DoWs Joao, Gilgy DoWs HC
- I trade for construction.
300AD - I sell Monotheism to Joao when he asks. Does it help diplo much to accept these type of deals? It is not a demand, just a kinda weak price. I was thinking about gifting it to him anyway so I accept.
- I get the tower shield event giving all my melee units cover! Finally, some luck with events.
325AD - I DoW Sury and send my stack in as soon as peace treaty can be canceled.
350AD - I get Judaism and put on my Yarmulka the next turn!
400AD -


Whatever you say, Jewish overlord Joao. I accept even though it kills my trade routes as HC is blocking me from Joao and Gilgy.
HC asked to cancel deals with Joao right before and I refused.

425AD - CoL is in and I revolt to CS and OR. (Judaism is only in 1 city and I want to crank a couple missionaries. Too bad no whip)

560AD - Gilgy builds AP. I abstain from the vote and it is: Joao 170, Gilgy 166, and my 6 abstentions. I actually have control over who heads the AP and this should only solidify as I spread Judaism. I don't actually know who I want in.
- I trade CoL for calendar w/ Joao

A shot of the frightening tech situation w/Gilgy:


What is he doing over there! I can't see anything in my "friends'" lands.

EDIT: Just saw the screenshot of Gilgy's capital. Do yourself a favor and don't peek. You will want to cry.

720AD - I start this round off with a little more of my typical luck.


Arrgh!

On the plus side I finally finish Sury this turn.

740AD - Double ARRGHHHH Another GP is born at ~10%. I really need a GS!
760AD -


I don't think I have ever had so many events. Most have been bad but I can't complain about this one even if it would have been more useful earlier.

Somewhere in here I figure I can make a run on HC's southernmost city. As soon as my stack pokes its head in he tries to outflank me with a massive but outdated SoD. (My units are outdated too but heavily upgraded.) I let him take Harihalaya and then send in my CR promoted cats, swords and axes (plus all those cover and shock promotions). The result is a massacre and I get a reasonable peace deal out of HC. Annoying to lose the couple buildings in the city but man, you should have seen the carnage.

I am the first to CS this turn and I can't whore myself out fast enough.


I also traded it to Gilgy for 3 techs but I forgot a screenshot and can't remember what they were. It helped a lot though.


920AD - I finally get trade routes going with Joao and Gilgy. This was probably my stupidest mistake so far but I am a bit mystified by how this works. I had established a trade connection a bit before but couldn't really see any of their cities. Once I could, trade opened up and my GPT got about a +50 boost! I definitely should have realized this this earlier.
980AD - I trade paper for philo w/ Joao and revolt to pacifism and bureaucracy.
1040AD - I am about to throw a party!! My first GS is born! I bulb him for education (now 3 turns left). An academy will have to wait if I want any shot at Liberalism.

I hope I can squeeze something out of my ramshackle civilization. The effects of Rep are definitely beign felt but my overall tech rate is nothing to get excited about. I still have not built NE in Aachen (doing it now). It got held up with the whole burnt down forge event. My infrastructure remains crap but at least the worker situation has been resolved and they have made great strides.
My plans for the near future are to move my capital to Yasod and make this my HE/IW city. Still no cottages but the hammer bonus will be through the roof and he can work a couple scientists in the meantime.
Finally, I would really like to upgrade my veteran melee units but I have no idea where I will get the cash. GM from Free market is a long way away. I don't think I can afford switching from scientists to merchants for that long but maybe once I get NE up. I still really could use GS's.

As for some self criticism, the trade route thing was pure stupidity on my part.
Also, at the risk of about stuff that can't be helped now, I really think missing GLib hurt me bad. Besides helping my tech rate, it likely would have resulted in 3 GS's by now. Oh, well.

What a game! It is definitely not over.

Things still not going great but I've not given up. As soon as the last war finished he vassaled to HC so ending the plan of taking him out. Reading other peoples reports it seems I'm the only one he attacked. Good move by everyone who settled the gold/sheep city I was a little bit too late and Sury had already settled there. Not just the city but having to take it as well was a big pain.

So where to go from here? I haven't built any new cities, my tech rate is really bad, I'm not used to this.

Good news. I managed to build the GLib and thats it.

Current Tech situation.



I used GS's to bulb philo (although Joao founded Tao in the BCs) and Education. Virtually everything I've learnt has come from trades using those 2 plus Aesthetics. There is one AI I haven't met yet so hopefully I will have something on them.

Demographics.



All I can say is awful.

I'm thinking the only chance I have is to draft rifles and attack HC/Sury. The main trouble being at the moment Nat will take 29 turns to research, as for RP and rifles probably get there by 1900.

I'm fully expecting my tech situation to be on a par with yours by the time I get to the middle ages.

It looks like (JBossch's game aside) there are 2 main starts everyone's played out - those who were able to beat Sury to the double-gold site and those who weren't and had to settle for a 2 city axe rush. The former is obviously a much stronger opening, but totally dependent on how the AI behaves.

I think you drew the short straw in this game by having Sury gear up for war with you at the same time as you were gearing up for war with him, making the whole thing that much harder. My barb HA uprising event was inconvenient, but didn't have as great an impact on the way things have played out.

After seeing Rusten's report, I might create a WB save and replay this as Gilgamesh at a later date.

This about explains everything.



Just slightly behind. At least I've been able to trade with Sal a little bit. Hopefully I will get rifles from him as well at some point. I made a big mistake in changing my mind from rifles for drafting to trying to play peacefully instead and try for the internet and space. Notice the lack of rifling except Gil who has infantry.

Some good news.



I've nearly finished Railway so that helps.

More good news. HC/Sury declared on Joao and Cathie on Sal so as long as I can keep Gil happy I should be safe. I would be very surprised if I can pull this one off but still hoping.

Your not wrong about the gold site. If I had settled there before Sury he would have been much easier to take out, his other cities fell quite easy then as soon as HC got feud he voluntarily vassaled to him. He still has 3 reasonable cities and I would have been in a much better spot if I could have taken them as well. Perhaps I should have declared on him regardless of HC but we live and learn.

My tech rate in this game has been a joke although it is now improving a little bit. The other plus side I'm still living so there is still hope.

Well the original plan was to go for the Internet and try for a late space win. Luckily I'm still able to trade techs like so.



My plans have changed slightly and this will give a slight clue.



So much for the peacful route. I've just declared on Sury and therefore HC. I was very surprised on capturing his first city what was in there.



The SoL, I thought Gil had built it but now its mine. Joao is still at war with HC so that will keep some of the pressure off me. Sury is down to 1 city he did have 3 but 1 revolted to HC.

So still some hope left in this game. The only one not involved in a war at the moment is Cathie but I expect her to attack Sal again soon. Gil has built Apollo and the docking bay so I'll have to be careful of his launching. I'm still planning on going for space but need to trim HC's cultural cities down a bit first if I can.

I started with the fish, It's good for early commerce and once you have the boats up the worker'll come out sooner. Wrong again on this map though as i miss out on the double gold spot. We're boxed in again so again a rush is neccessary. It's really strange that we've got these early rush situations on almost every start, in my offline games this scenario doesn't occur too often, could be that i just zapped away a few of these starts because i really don't like them.

I plan to build the second city 1S of the cows, i can work the copper immediately since capital borders pop again in time.

But



First unlucky event i get, just as i'm about to fogbusth the place a barb city appears forcing my second city in an unfavorable spot. I also got a slave revolt some turns later, that happens almost every game so i don't think too much of it.

Researchwise i get to writing then set the slider to 0%, apart from the crabs i haven't got any commerce going and even at zero science i don't make much gold.Even researching pottery would take forever now. Doesn't matter that much, now is not a time for cottages.

I chop everything, as capital becomes unhappy at 6 i time a worker to precision, building it to 29 hammers then 2 pop whipping for free axe. Ready 900 BC with a rather large stack of axes. I have 5 more in reserve already.



I invade and the rush goes smoothly, at the cost of other things i really made sure of getting enough axes to finish Sury off in resonable time. I know where is iron is and pillage it quickly,then somewhere around 750 BC Khmer gets the event that gives archers combat1.

That sucks, i'll have to make sure to have a big stack for every city i attack. Nothing as bad as losing 5 axes and not taking a city. Without this event i could have split stacks i think but not now. Finally BC 175 BC i take the last city. In my game Sury didn't have alpha so no need to let him live. In the process i have razed three cities so my empire consists of 6 cities now

I'm losing money at 0% research economically the situation is worse than in the other rush games, in the Monty game i got alpha from Louis. In the Cyrus game i had 3 early towns and intercontinental trade. Also enough gold there to make it to COL. Now i'm empty handed.

i begin with sailing, because it immediately helps with trade routes, i'll have to take the barbcity in the northeast also to get coastal trade going.



75 BC sailing is in but my cash diminished. If i go COL from here i won't make it before cash runs out and with only some scientists it'll take ages to research. I can just make it to alpha though and then i can do something useful with the now useless production.

Just make it in time and as a bonus i can trade it to Capac for Math. I don't have any use for math now but it'll help bulb philo once Col is in. With the production set to research in all cities i get COL in 8 turns, bulb philo immediately.

Finally my luck turns, both Joao and Gilga research to CS and i can trade philo for it.Also Huyna declares on Joao.Together with currency, we are finally going somewhere 580 AD.

Plan from here is moving the capital. The old capital will get NE soon for bulbing (i'll switch drama for poly,lit from the save i posted).I also think i put globe here for drafting but not yet sure. Research is still low and i'm not totally sure if i'll get lib this time. On the good site,Capac is already backward and if i virtually add up his land to mine i should have a chance. As opposed to the Monty game for instance i don't consider this game won yet. I have 3 reasonable spots left to settle , don't think i'll wait too long, rathouses come in handy here. May need some extra workers as well. I'll try to get some techs from Hyuna first, then i'll switch to confucianism.

Overwiew:

- 600 AD Spawn another GS -> part-bulb education. I have the NE in Aachen by now. I decided to make it a base for specialists rather than cottage it. I was thinking of moving my capital but I never got around to it as my riverside grassland cities didn’t have much commerce yet.

- 800 AD I get another one but I have already completed Liberalism (left it at 1 turn). I was thinking of picking Steel with it but shortly after pausing I decided to complete it and take Nationalism instead (820 AD). We have marble so I might as well make the Taj.

I’m not looking forward to the upcoming war vs Huayna. The distance is unsettling and I don’t have horses so I can’t make up for it with my beloved cuirassiers. I decided to go for Grenadiers instead and follow up with cannons. After making some trades for the backfill techs (engineering, guilds and machinery) I lightbulbed chemistry and finished Military Science during the GA. I’m now at 1170 AD and about to declare on Huayna. My current force consists of some grenadiers (being produced in several cities), some LKs and some Trebs. I think I won’t need Steel/cannons for Huayna so I’ll just tech it slowly during the war and keep producing an army. The good thing about imperialistic and a lower visit to the tech tree is that you can get a lot of military academies making unit production much easier.

- I upgraded 2 of my axes along the way. It was quite costly, but they had CR3+C1 unlocked so I went for it regardless.

Here’s the tech screen as of 1170 AD. It’s looking very good, but I’ll probably lose my lead during the war. It’s going to be a logistics nightmare with 1 move units over such vast territory.



Here’s my current SoD. I will dish out a grenadier or two every turn with use of the whip and HE (Vienna). I have adopted Vassalage and Mercantilism.



I have made more cottages than I usually do this game for a number of reasons.

- none of our traits are good for getting buildings up and running (creative, expansive).
- I haven’t been able to unlock Pacifism.
- We’re not Phi.
- Not much food until calendar.



Currently got a Caravel out scouting for the remaining AIs (2nd one eta 1 turn). I doubt they'll have anything to offer me right now though seeing as I'm at parity/slight lead with mr. 3-gem.

I wouldn't know how often you skip starts like this, but I concur with the fact that they happen way more often than normal in these threads. It's quite unfortunate because they're not my favourite either. I enjoyed this one though because it's much more difficult than the former starts.

Intriguing post, if you were one of the leaders in the game i'm sure one of your traits would be creative. A genuin oracel-Mc-Pyramids gambit.

Indeed an economy is always recoverable in the end, it's important though how quick you can get back on track. The way you played it you won't have much problems recovering as you have MC as a trade tool to get some essential techs and specialists you run'll pull their full weigh.

I'd be worried at the pace your war is going, every turn in war'll cost you due to unhappiness, need to keep on producing units, culturally pressed cities. I looked at your 75 AD save and also at your second spoiler until 500 AD and some Khmer are still alive. You're running a potential risk of Khmer vassalizing to someone.

In my game i simply couldn't build anything when Khmer died so i couldn't do the things you advised, no cottages (didn't have pottery), certainly no GL miles away from lit. I don't like deleting even low promoted axes, they only cost 1gpt and apart from providing real defence it boosts power which is rather important with all the leaders cautious towards me and in different religions.

As for diplo, in my game hinduist Huyna declared on confucian Joao which was lucky, confucian Gilga won't join because he shares civics with Huyna.

this start is indeed difficult and enjoyable as a consequence. I sometimes skip these starts indeed. I have also played Pangae for a while to look for these sorts of starts, in that case i was mostly experimenting what the best rushing methods were seldom playing the game to the end.

I just like blocking games alot more because I love the planning involved.

I just continued building axemen with the exception of getting two workboats out of Aachen (which equaled production of axemen in the long run too).

875 BC: A rich source of tin is discovered in the hills 1S of Prague. Man I love this event.

775 BC: I work some cottages to stay afloat. Hariharalaya to the north that I planned on attacking is at 40% defense and massing troops but I discover that Nagara Jayasri that I let Sury build on the west coast is only defended by 1 axe and 1 archer. I mass my reinforcements for a little while until I have 6 axes and then attack.



He had time to get two more archers in and I fail to capture the city in the first attack. Half my axes are killed and one badly injured archer remains in the city.
I get my first GG in Prague which I settle there. I will make Prague my HE city.
The next turn my axes attack Nagara Jayasri again. Sury actually gives his surviving C1 archer an intelligent promotion given the circumstances (shock), but it is not enough to keep the city.



725 BC: Finish Writing, start on Sailing. I move to pillage some mines by Surys northenmost city Angkor Wat. I'm pretty sure he has no strategic resources left though since he's just been building archers everywhere.

650 BC: Mahabodhi built in distant lands.

525 BC: Hariharalaya (Goddamnit I'm just gonna call this city Harry from now on) has 7 archers and 1 axe which is quite troubling. Sury makes another stupid move here though by moving some of them into open country adjacent to a group of holy roman axemen. I get some free kills.

450 BC: Hanging Gardens built in distant lands. Our stone builder at it again..
Then it's time to make my assault on Harry.



12 axes and 1 spear, all of the axes with 2 promotions of varying effectiveness for attacking cities, 1 axemen injured. Sury has 8 archers, half with 1 promotion. This might be close.
It was indeed..



My last unit, the injured axe, kills Surys last archer to capture the city on the same turn. Another GG is born in Aachen, I send him to Prague and settle him. Some people might argue that I should have settled him in Aachen to get two cities spawning level 2 units since I'm still going to be at war for some time.
I prefer making a super HE-city though. Since we're imperialistic, it's not unrealistic to get a third GG before the war is over and with 3 settled GGs and theocracy or vassalage, Prague can produce level 4 units. That might be invaluable in the long run.

425 BC: Sury adopts Hindusim. TOA built in distant lands (actually quite close as I was soon to find out). Confucianism founded in distant lands.

375 BC: The Great Lighthouse built in distant lands.

350 BC: Find out I'm the 6th largest civ. AP built in distant land by a buddhist civ.

325 BC: Meet HC who is Hindu and have the Hindu holy city, he's also the one who built the TOA earlier. He's grumpy at me for attacking Sury although I didn't know him at the time. I open borders with him.



225 BC: HC DOWs on Sury giving me some diplo benefits. I capture and raze Angkor Tom on the east coast since it was built on top of a gold but I get really unlucky and lose lots of units at low odds.



This delays my attack on Angkor Wat.

200 BC: HC capture Rajavihara, Angkor Wat is Surys last city now.



175 BC: SoZ built in distant lands.

125 BC: Finish Sailing, start on Masonry. I settle Vienna on the east coast to get the happiness and commerce from the gold.



The filler city in the middle is less interesting now since I've decided to move the capital to Harry (-2) food there only I think, more central and Aachen is by far the best candidate for a gp farm. In retrospect I should have moved Vienna 1W in view of this.

1 AD: SP built in distant lands. Lots of wonderbuilding this game. Sury founds Isvarapura on the east coast to the east of Harry.

25 AD: Meet Gilgamesh, who is jewish and have the jew holy city. He makes me feel like a backwards barbarian.



You can see by his civics he also has at least Monarchy on me (probably more). Fortunately he's friendly with HC so I sign open borders.Signing open borders with HC was probably a mistake but my economy felt a bit desperate.

50 AD: Church of Nativity built in distant lands.

75 AD: Gilgamesh adopts Vassalage.

150 AD: After some feints HC decides to move in for the kill with a SOD he's been massing outside Angkor Wat, my army is there of course but it's not strong enough to capture Angkor Wat yet so I'm hoping that HC will soften it up for me.



I have 8 units ready. HC attacks with 8 spears and 4 axes (what's with the spears?). Sury has 5 archers and 1 axe.

175 BC: HCs attack fails as expected, still a great relief though as Angkor Wat is quite a nice city and in a strategic position. I capture it without losing a single unit. What about razing it and putting a city 1N instead? I don't think that's the best move at this point. When you're strong you can mess around and perfect your city placement but I don't have the time. The current position gives the city fresh water at least and there's a village on that sugar 2S and I'm not going to keep Isvarapura.
A third GG is born in Aachen and sent to Prague to be settled. I trade my only crab for gems to Gilgamesh and my only sheep for pigs to HC.


How to proceed from here? Masonry is 1 turn from completion, what should I research next? I've been thinking TGL gambit and hope that HC doesn't have Aesthetics and that he'll pick up Alphabet so I can trade it to him for some tech. Gilgamesh has had Aesthetics for some time though and might go for TGL himself, although it doesn't seem like he's been going after many wonders, at least he's not gotten any thus far.
I've prechopped and roaded all 6 remaining forests around Aachen so I can probably build TGL in a single turn with the marble, at least if I can trade for maths first.
My first GS will be born in Aachen in 5 turns. What should I do with him? I'm thinking best case scenario might be to bulb him for Alphabet if I can trade Aesthetics for Maths with HC, what do you think? An academy should definitely be placed in Aachen if I do that..

Tell me how I'm doing here, is it bad? Unfortunately I can't read about your games yet. I already discovered Joao is in the game from reading patagonia's first spoiler so I don't want to spoil more information. Please consider that if you advice me on where to go next.

I'll try not to give you any info you can't know already. First observation is that you really need to finish off the Khmer soon. You know that Gilgamesh has Feudalism (vassalage) so you're at risk of the Khmer choosing to become a vassal state (happened to me 175 BC).

The good;
- (+) diplo with Huayna for shared war.
- You're getting gold at 0% science with a lot of money left.
- You'll get the second gold mine soon.
- Have a lot of land to work and mature.

The bad;
- You're lacking Alphabet so you can't build research.
- It's 175 AD and you're still at war.
- You're very backwards lacking all the post-rush techs.


Other;

- You could settle the GG in your drafting city (if you already have a plan for where that will be). With a MI and a barracks you'll be able to get a promotion right off the bat (and with protective you can choose pinch right away).

- Why are you getting a monument in Aachen?

- The GL and the NE is HUGE with a non-philosophical leader when you're trying to catch up. If you think you can get it I'd go for it, but it is quite late so it's not guaranteed.

- Might be a good idea to pillage that cottaged sugar tile within the Khmer borders. It has a village (!) and you're going to have to make a plantation over it later anyway.

Overall you're doing OK -- it's not lost yet. You have a lot of land to work peacefully and with some lightbulbing and good trades you can find yourself on par with the AIs later.

From the games i've seen your game resembles mine most. I was quicker finishing off khmer but you've got pottery already and working some good cottages.We both have no post rush tech (alpha,col,currency) at all. I agree with Rusten's post, finish Khmer soon. You mentioned bulbing alpha, if you're trying for GL i'd do this i think, you've not enough gold as it is to reach aesthetics and lit soon but with alpha and production-> research it just might work. It's a huge gamble,Ad's already,Huyna industrious. if you miss out you you'll regret it dearly. And actually you don't need GL here (though it would be nice of course), your capital can sustain some 8 GS anyway later.

Suggest you set the corn and forest tiles to coast instead in Prague and the grassland hill to the lake in your capital. You'll need every bit of commerce there is and it will help before you get the cottages up. By working the coast and lake you get writing in 3 turns and can then set research to 0% gathering up some gold for more unit upkeep in addition to pillage/city loot the Khmer. You'll have +12 gold as things are right now by working the lake and coast.

I see that you have AH ready, so you could also choose to keep a settler ready to settle the sheep and 2 gold after razing Suryavarman's misplaced city. I wouldn't suggest settling another city before the rush -- you've already made a lot of axes and every turn you postpone attacking you'll lose a lot of money on unit upkeep. If you choose to get a settler in Aachen you might want to postpone working the lake until after it's finished and set it to the Corn instead.

PS: You have a lot of forests left, it's usually better to chop out axes as they will come faster -> meaning less time paying for them before you attack.

Edit: If you look at his tiles you'll see he has 1 plains with 1 & 2. Might be a good idea to pillage that early, it must be iron as you would see it if it was horses or copper.

I actually tried to chop as much as as I could, but I wanted to get all mines up first and didn't really have time to chop much before I already had a large army.
Do you suggest chopping before building mines/farms? or building more workers?