I call upon the pure-awesome people of the OT for all LGBT people!

Why on earth do you attack my post stating that rationality and the Bible don't go together?
Because the Bible says things like "'Come, let us reason together', says the LORD" in Isaiah 1.
Isn't that more or less what faith is? Believing in something that is not rational and don't have concrete proof for.

I feel a bit offended to be honest. :)
You appear to be 1) conflating faith and the Bible, and 2) using the definition of 'faith' that best supports your argument. The first definition I got from a dictionary was 'confidence or trust in a person or thing', which also appears to be the literal usage in Hebrews 11, "faith is of things hoped for a confidence", (Young's Literal Translation) and the contextual definition, no. 3 in the same dictionary, is 'belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion'.

You equatist. :p

I got Erik's approval :banana:
I got Erik's approval :banana:

\:D/
Ziggy values my approval! :banana:

INFINITE HAPPINESS LOOP! :goodjob:

Some of the strongest condemnations of homosexual behaviour are in Leviticus, but not all of Leviticus applies to Christians.
I think this is the understatement of the day. :)

I think the two strongest arguments would be insist that the idea of a mutual & loving relationship between men was a foreign idea to Paul. He just didn't seem to conceive of it.

Paul gives a list of examples of sexual immorality. If you look at the list, it's examples of homosexual behaviour, but homosexual behaviour tied to other activities: adultry, buggering boys, worshipping idols, etc. None of these are a mutual & loving relationship, which is what you two have.
[cut for brevity]
Mine homofile venner explicitly disagreed, IIRC. I'll try to get hold of a copy again, since it's a while since I read it at the library.
 
Lets debate these points
1) Homosexuality is not natural, it is a disease/choice/disorder
2) There are ex-gay people who hated homosexuality and "changed" for the better
3) The Bible says it is wrong.
4) The Bible is a 100% correct, it is the truth and all of you non-believers and sinners are gonna burnnnnnn in hell. It cannot be just somewhat right.
5) You cannot be gay and Christian
6) My child is gay because he had a shock to his psychological system when he was in his puberty stage because he had a big change in his life (moving from the US back to Singapore) and because he did not have a loving father figure and also because of his reclusive social nature.

1) It does not fit the definition of a mental disorder and is therefore normal
2) They are borderline psychotic, repressing their own nature because of their insane religious beliefs
3) Christians aren't supposed to listen to Leviticus, which is why they can be fat or eat cheeseburgers without going to hell. Besides, the Jewish bible also says a lot of crazy things, like God commanding the Israelites to commit genocide, mass rape, etc.
4) Learn history
5) You cannot be rational and Christian. Some gay people are irrational and therefore capable of being Christian.
6) Their child is gay because he was born like that, and saying anything else is simply being in denial because they are homophobes
 
Such helpful advice. But not what I am looking for. And I know there is a good chance we are not going to convince them. What I really want to do is either change their minds or prove that they are bigots unturning to reason and logic.

I think it's good advice, though. It's easier to convince people to accept you if you're nice, loving, and respectable (and respectful).
 
Ask them if you can purchase their daughter and offer them a donkey in exchange.

That is the Old Testament. They are using the New Testament.
 
WARNING: The below poster might offend:

1) Homosexuality is not natural, it is a disease/choice/disorder

Homosexuality is not a disease or a choice. Disorder maybe, but I think it is more of a defect.

I mean, do you honestly believe that mother nature will evolve to a point where there is Homosexuality? Of coarse not. It doesn't make sense! How would we reproduce?

I also think people are born gay, just like people are born with Autism. It is a defect.

Political Correctness will try to make it otherwise though. (like it is natural or something? Like WTH? How can that be natural?)
 
Such helpful advice. But not what I am looking for. And I know there is a good chance we are not going to convince them. What I really want to do is either change their minds or prove that they are bigots unturning to reason and logic.
If that is your aim, you don't have a good chance of not convincing them, you simply won't. If you believe you can chance these people's mindsets which they probably have had for a long time by an afternoon of discussion, you're in for some disappointment. If you want proof of this, read any one of the religious threads here and the spectacular level of debate going on. You are going to attack their believes they are going to entrench themselves and retreat further into it and to boot they'll probably be offended by it.

But, it's your party. :)
 
I mean, do you honestly believe that mother nature will evolve to a point where there is Homosexuality? Of coarse not. It doesn't make sense! How would we reproduce?

Tell that to the penguins.
 
That is the Old Testament. They are using the New Testament.

If they knew science, it would be easier. In the OT, the text says that homosexual behaviour is an abomination to the Lord. This is silly on the face of it, because the genes for homosexual potential evolved hundreds of thousands of years (maybe even millions of years) before humanity sprouted. And then God waited for 96% of humanity's history before deciding to tell humanity that it was an abomination (assuming that humanity has been around for about 100,000 years, and the text is about 4,000 years old).
 
So this is the situation. My boyfriend and his parents have agreed to have a conversation on Homosexuality and Christianity (His parents are religious pious Christians whose church split from their previous one because it wasn't conservative enough). According to my other half, his parents are rational people who will listen to reason and if so, will be willing to let me and him continue our one year plus relationship in peace.

So I call upon the sexpigs and pure-awesome people of the CivFanatics Center's Off-Topic Forum, to come together and form an argument so solid, so logical, so rational that it refutes every counter argument, every but and if that either his parents have to submit to your thread-winning skills or prove to be bigots so that my partner can read it and learn for his argument.

And for those who think Homosexuality is wrong wrong wrong and the bible is the complete truth, fight back with every argument you can think of so every drop of discussion is squeezed out and used.

So, some notes and things to start us off. His parents, as I said are religious. His parents, base their argument around the New Testament. So this isn't just a "prove homosexuality is normal" argument. It is also "disprove the Bible" argument. Or, at least make it so that the bible can be wrong and is not 100% correct and neither is everything it says.
Lets debate these points
1) Homosexuality is not natural, it is a disease/choice/disorder
2) There are ex-gay people who hated homosexuality and "changed" for the better
3) The Bible says it is wrong.
4) The Bible is a 100% correct, it is the truth and all of you non-believers and sinners are gonna burnnnnnn in hell. It cannot be just somewhat right.
5) You cannot be gay and Christian
6) My child is gay because he had a shock to his psychological system when he was in his puberty stage because he had a big change in his life (moving from the US back to Singapore) and because he did not have a loving father figure and also because of his reclusive social nature.


Please provide sources. It make it more credible.

Discussion begin!

This is not going to be a rational discussion and his parents are putting both of you in an unfair position. If I were you I would not try and "debate" this with them but rather have a discussion with them about how you feel, how their son feels, and why you two want to be together as normal human beings. That is, if you feel this conversation is even a good idea, which it might not be.

It's not like they are going to suddenly see the light because of some great logical point. This isn't about logic.

Have you ever heard of Dan Savage? He is an American column writer who deals with LGBT issues. He is usually hilarious and irreverent but also deals with issues like this, and he is generally spot on. His column is called Savage Love. You might want to check out some of his stuff and maybe consider writing him.

edit: or what VRWC Agent said. He is wise young grasshopper!
 
1) It does not fit the definition of a mental disorder and is therefore normal
2) They are borderline psychotic, repressing their own nature because of their insane religious beliefs
3) Christians aren't supposed to listen to Leviticus, which is why they can be fat or eat cheeseburgers without going to hell. Besides, the Jewish bible also says a lot of crazy things, like God commanding the Israelites to commit genocide, mass rape, etc.
4) Learn history
5) You cannot be rational and Christian. Some gay people are irrational and therefore capable of being Christian.
6) Their child is gay because he was born like that, and saying anything else is simply being in denial because they are homophobes

1) It would be great if you could provide me a few trustworthy organisations who say that.
2) Umm... I dont think calling them a borderline psycho is going to work.
3) They are basing this on the New Testament. Leviticus is in the Old Testament
4) Its apparently too controversial to bring up except in a last ditch effort because it apparently attacks the base of their religious roots too strongly and will cause them to go into emotional spasms. Or that is what he says.
5) Um... I dont think calling my boyfriend and his parents irrational is a good thing. Plus, dude... Christianity is not all bad.
6) He swears that they are not homophobes cause they love him. Plus I need more proof/good argument rather than just "some dude online said so".
 
1) It would be great if you could provide me a few trustworthy organisations who say that.

The American Psychological Association.

http://www.soulforce.org/article/643

WHAT CAUSES A PERSON TO HAVE A PARTICULAR SEXUAL ORIENTATION?

How a particular sexual orientation develops in any individual is not well understood by scientists. Various theories have proposed differing sources for sexual orientation, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors and life experiences during early childhood. However, many scientists share the view that sexual orientation is shaped for most people at an early age through complex interactions of biological, psychological and social factors.

interactions of biological, psychological and social factors.

IS SEXUAL ORIENTATION A CHOICE?

No. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. And some people report trying very hard over many years to change their sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual with no success. For these reasons, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation for most people to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.

IS HOMOSEXUALITY A MENTAL ILLNESS OR EMOTIONAL PROBLEM?

No. Psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, mental disorder or emotional problem. Much objective scientific research over the past 35 years shows us that homosexual orientation, in and of itself, is not associated with emotional of social problems.

Homosexuality was thought to be a mental illness in the past because mental health professionals and society had biased information about homosexuality since most studies only involved lesbians and gay men in therapy. when researchers examined data about gay people who were not in therapy, the idea that homosexuality was a mental illness was found to be untrue.

In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association confirmed the importance of the new research by removing the term 'homosexuality' from the official manual that list all mental and emotional disorders. In 1975 the American Psychological Association passed a resolution supporting this action. Both associations urge all mental health professionals to help dispel the stigma of mental illness that some people still associate with homosexual orientation. Since original declassification of homosexuality as a mental disorder, this decision has subsequently been reaffirmed by additional research findings and both associations.

CAN THERAPY CHANGE SEXUAL ORIENTATION?

No. Even though homosexual orientation is not a mental illness and there is no scientific reason to attempt conversion of lesbians or gays to heterosexual orientation, some individuals may seek to change their own sexual orientation or that of another individual (for example, parents seeking therapy for their child). Some therapists who undertake this kind of therapy report that they have changed their client's sexual orientation (from homosexual to heterosexual) in treatment. Close scrutiny of their reports indicates several factors that cast doubt: many of the claims come from organizations with an ideological perspective on sexual orientation, rather than from mental health researchers; the treatments and their outcomes are poorly documented; and the length of time that clients are followed up after the treatment is too short.

In 1990, the American Psychological Association stated that scientific evidence does not show that conversion therapy works and that it can do more harm than good. Changing one's sexual orientation is not simply a matter of changing one's sexual behavior. It would require altering one's emotional, romantic and sexual feelings and restructuring one's self-concept and social identity. Although some mental health providers do attempt sexual orientation conversion, others question the ethics of trying to alter through therapy a trait that is not a disorder and that is extremely important to an individual's identity. Not all gays and lesbians who seek therapy want to change their sexual orientation. Gays and lesbians may seek counseling for any of the same reasons as anyone else. In addition, they may seed psychological help to 'come out' or to deal with prejudice, discrimination and violence.
 
This is not going to be a rational discussion and his parents are putting both of you in an unfair position. If I were you I would not try and "debate" this with them but rather have a discussion with them about how you feel, how their son feels, and why you two want to be together as normal human beings. That is, if you feel this conversation is even a good idea, which it might not be.

It's not like they are going to suddenly see the light because of some great logical point. This isn't about logic.

Have you ever heard of Dan Savage? He is an American column writer who deals with LGBT issues. He is usually hilarious and irreverent but also deals with issues like this, and he is generally spot on. His column is called Savage Love. You might want to check out some of his stuff and maybe consider writing him.
Oh. He is going to use that angle to if my information is correct. I know there isn't a good chance of convincing them in one afternoon. But a good long talk will get alot of things on the table and it might even at least get his parents to rethink some stuff and maybe let some strings looser.

It is not easy having a relationship with him because his parents have quite a hold on him. Like for example, he refuses to lie to his parents. I said that his parents were using the Guilt Card to pull him about. But I wanna do everything I can do make it easier for us and if that means pouring hours of my life into finding arguments to win a seemingly near-impossible-to-win debate, Im going to do it. Because there is a chance and that is plenty good enough for me.
 
Homosexuality is partially genetic and partially conditioned, just like heterosexuality.
If by conditioned you are including hormone levels in the womb.
If you believe you can chance these people's mindsets which they probably have had for a long time by an afternoon of discussion, you're in for some disappointment. You are going to attack their beliefs and they are going to entrench themselves and retreat further into them and to boot they'll probably be offended by it.
This is true, but if you're not too aggressive you'll give them something to mull over which with some time, tact and delicacy can make your lives better.
Lets debate these points
1) Homosexuality is not natural, it is a disease/choice/disorder
2) There are ex-gay people who hated homosexuality and "changed" for the better
3) The Bible says it is wrong.
4) The Bible is a 100% correct, it is the truth and all of you non-believers and sinners are gonna burnnnnnn in hell. It cannot be just somewhat right.
5) You cannot be gay and Christian
6) My child is gay because he had a shock to his psychological system when he was in his puberty stage because he had a big change in his life (moving from the US back to Singapore) and because he did not have a loving father figure and also because of his reclusive social nature.
1. Homosexuality is very common throughout the animal kingdom, and we know that it is influenced by genes and hormone exposure in the womb. If people want to deny these findings then they can take it up with scientists whose methods have been applied successfully to discover, in exactly the same way, a great many vital facts for modern medicine.
2. Ex-gays are extra-ordinarily rare, and typically live in, or are an active part of, a very homophobic community. That every ex-gay is in such a situation, but there are none who 'choose' not to be gay without these extreme pressures speaks to the likelihood of repression of natural tendencies, not a real choice of tendency.
3. See elsewhere. The Bible is wrong, as evidenced in many places which you can search for yourself. Most Christian denominations do not accept everything in The Bible. Once you accept that interpretation is acceptable, it's a small matter to accept that the denunciation of homosexuality is to be ignored.
4. Find two contradictory Bible passages. Find some theologians online who disagree. 5. There must be a Christian denomination who have a reasonable argument about why they accept homosexuality. These parents might not be members of such a group, but it will not hurt you to show that homosexuality is not entirely at odds with all Christianity.
6. Children are not gay because they're rebelling. You need to return to the evidence in 1 about hormones, genes and the animal kingdom. What might have caused it doesn't really matter to Christian beliefs, except in so far as you can show that God caused it, and it can't be a problem.
 
I thought all the anti-gay stuff was in Leviticus?

The two Chapters are actually concerned with the practices of Canaanites and how they are not be repeated by the Jews. That did include Homosexuality, but other things as well, such child sacrifices, which would be odd to include, if you were just talking about sexual crimes. I thought that Romans 1 was also explicit in it's condemnation of Homosexuality. There is a good reson why Homosexuality is spoken of little in the Bible, is that most of the time it was never a problem in Jewish culture. It was something that happened outside of the culture, which is why Paul was addressing the issue in a letter to Romans.

The animal argument one is a poor one, since we have animals doing things that we have laws against, such as rape, incest and bestiality. Yet we are not going to trumpet that as being natural. Many bad things happen to us because we do things that we should not be doing, but if we do it is "natural"?

@El_Mach. Galatians 5 is talking the exact opposite of what you are trying to say. He is talking that you should not be trying to live under the law, because that is doing the works of the flesh.
Galatians 5:16-23 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Here he is comparing the two, the works of the Flesh and the works of the Spirit. I would say that homosexual behaviour would fall under the term fornication, since Paul says to the Corinthians in his first letter to them, to avoid fornication by having sex in the realm of marriage, and he explicitly says that a man should have a wife and a woman should have a husband.
1 Corinthians 7:1-5 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
The reason for this part is that in the church at Corinth, there were two types of people regarding the issue of sexual morality. One tpye was of the view that, since you are now a believer, you are free to do whatever you want. The other group was a reaction to this group and they spoke that all forms of sex was wrong. Paul had already addressed the first group in the two previous chapters and now he is getting onto th second group, by showing the true purpose of what sex is and that is in the bounds of marriage and he had to specify that a man has a wife and woman has a husband, since they were in the city of Corinth and since it was a city that even back in that time the surrounding people saw them as being morally loose. Homosexuality was not that uncommon, especially in Corinth, but he specifically spoke in those terms so that proper sexual relations was for one man and one woman only.
 
1) It does not fit the definition of a mental disorder and is therefore normal

1) It would be great if you could provide me a few trustworthy organisations who say that.

The American Psychological Association.

http://www.soulforce.org/article/643
In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association confirmed the importance of the new research by removing the term 'homosexuality' from the official manual that list all mental and emotional disorders. In 1975 the American Psychological Association passed a resolution supporting this action.
"It's not a mental disorder. We defined it to not be one 35 years ago."
This isn't going to cut it, as the parents are likely to claim that there was gay lobbying at the APA or the like, and that they're sticking to the old definition.

2. Ex-gays are extra-ordinarily rare, and typically live in, or are an active part of, a very homophobic community. That every ex-gay is in such a situation, but there are none who 'choose' not to be gay without these extreme pressures speaks to the likelihood of repression of natural tendencies, not a real choice of tendency.
Proportionally, ex-gays are as rare among gays as gays are rare among straights, AFAIK, and I [citation needed] at your claim that every ex-gay is in such a situation.

Ask them if you can purchase their daughter and offer them a donkey in exchange.
Said in a tone of severe, pithy scorn and mockery: Hey, Karalysia, can I become a rapist if I deconvert to atheism in exchange?
 
Oh. He is going to use that angle to if my information is correct. I know there isn't a good chance of convincing them in one afternoon. But a good long talk will get alot of things on the table and it might even at least get his parents to rethink some stuff and maybe let some strings looser.

It is not easy having a relationship with him because his parents have quite a hold on him. Like for example, he refuses to lie to his parents. I said that his parents were using the Guilt Card to pull him about. But I wanna do everything I can do make it easier for us and if that means pouring hours of my life into finding arguments to win a seemingly near-impossible-to-win debate, Im going to do it. Because there is a chance and that is plenty good enough for me.

I really think there is zero chance of convincing them that they are wrong and that your relationship is a-ok via any sort of rational debate. Flip that coin around: do you think they are going to convince you that being gay is wrong? Of course not.

Hopefully, they love their son and want him to be happy. If you make him happy maybe that is a very slim crack in the door through which you can slowly but surely make them more accepting of your relationship. The terms of that conversation are less like a debate and more like you putting your cards on the table, and hoping that his parents are human beings enough to see that this is important to their son and that they should be more understanding.

FYI, if you try and go down the road of parents vs. relationship, you will often lose. Nothing but bad things come out of that road, especially if you are young (i.e. 16-20). You have to tread that path carefully. Convincing your boyfriend to lie, for instance, is not really fair to him. Remember his parents and his family are probably just as, if not more important to him, than you.
 
"It's not a mental disorder. We defined it to not be one 35 years ago."
This isn't going to cut it, as the parents are likely to claim that there was gay lobbying at the APA or the like, and that they're sticking to the old definition.
Actually, if you present a few more reputable institutions like some famous University Research or several more Health/medical organisations, they cannot just dismiss the opinions of many learned men who know more about them without sounding incredibly stupid and or like a bigot. They aren't so religiously fanatic to the point of Americans.
 
I really think there is zero chance of convincing them that they are wrong and that your relationship is a-ok via any sort of rational debate. Flip that coin around: do you think they are going to convince you that being gay is wrong? Of course not.

Hopefully, they love their son and want him to be happy. If you make him happy maybe that is a very slim crack in the door through which you can slowly but surely make them more accepting of your relationship. The terms of that conversation are less like a debate and more like you putting your cards on the table, and hoping that his parents are human beings enough to see that this is important to their son and that they should be more understanding.

FYI, if you try and go down the road of parents vs. relationship, you will often lose. Nothing but bad things come out of that road, especially if you are young (i.e. 16-20). You have to tread that path carefully. Convincing your boyfriend to lie, for instance, is not really fair to him. Remember his parents and his family are probably just as, if not more important to him, than you.

I never want him to lie actually! I know how important it is to him and I make it important to me too. I really love him and would do anything to make him happy. There were countless of times where I thought about wanting to break up with him so he didnt have to fight with his parents anymore. And even at a certain point, I did reluctantly break up with him because he asked me too (As I said, his Parents are good with Guilt).
 
Said in a tone of severe, pithy scorn and mockery: Hey, Karalysia, can I become a rapist if I deconvert to atheism in exchange?

Let me consult my Atheist Bible on what it says about being a rapist. Hm....my Atheist Bible is mysteriously silent on that subject. Indeed my Atheist Bible doesn't exist.
Actually, if you present a few more reputable institutions like some famous University Research or several more Health/medical organisations, they cannot just dismiss the opinions of many learned men who know more about them without sounding incredibly stupid and or like a bigot. They aren't so religiously fanatic to the point of Americans.

There have been plenty of studies done by a wide range of institutes. Just google and you'll find them. Avoid Narth their biased and trying to "cure" gays.
 
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