Absolutely this. I've actually managed to win 8-way deity without ever being in a war once by constantly force buying war on everyone that would otherwise have attacked me.
Deity Rerolls and Losses
- Thread starter Mondoflow
- Start date
Absolutely this. I've actually managed to win 8-way deity without ever being in a war once by constantly force buying war on everyone that would otherwise have attacked me.
Deau
Emperor
Hi, I was already planning to post a game start I got earlier but reading this post justifies it even more.
Here's the link to the thread (sorry to link myself...)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12254996#post12254996
It is a great start to practice deity pangaea approaches. I will likely replay it a few times with different opening strategies to see how well I can do with one or the other. Sadly, most maps don't allow REX openers on deity but nonetheless, it is a very good place to start
Here's the link to the thread (sorry to link myself...)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12254996#post12254996
It is a great start to practice deity pangaea approaches. I will likely replay it a few times with different opening strategies to see how well I can do with one or the other. Sadly, most maps don't allow REX openers on deity but nonetheless, it is a very good place to start
sufficiency
King
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2013
- Messages
- 682
Can you elaborate on this?
Grendeldef
Trancerelic & coffeeholic
Deity has become really ridiculous after the patch, there's 3 reasons to play it:
-You like insane challenge
-Immortal is too easy for you
-You really really hate yourself for some reason, see a psych
Nah, Deity can occasionally produce hilarious/desperate situations but it's generally beatable, the challenge is insane only if one thinks AIs mental health - every game has few WTH moments. What it is most of the time is annoying due to bugs and/or weird behaviour of AI.
One of those things happened few days back when Pachacuti backstabbed me ~T60 and I counted 21 units around my 3 cities - seemed quite impressive and it had somewhat profound effect on my build queue and expansion plans. 20 turns & 28 killed units later he took a break to upgrade his units but wasn't very keen on peace. Even with extremely effective production the AI, sadly, is an irrational moron but occasionally gives nice boost for early fpt with proper pantheon.
Most likely "Immortal is too easy for you" is the most common reason to play Deity. I actually tried Immortal with weird, extra set of rules to make AI competitive and mainly to have some fun again with very little success so I'm back to Deity but only playing very few games.
The problem with Deity is that one is not building a civilization but trying to beat a computer which is a very different thing and I for one prefer the former.
Nope, it isn't but if money makes the world go around it can do wonders within a game. Lack of money just postpones the time when the game is won or some occasions prevents it altogether but what would be the point of a game what one can't lose?
Map and neighbours play a huge part in the outcome of game since SBs are not the ultimate solution to everything like they were in vanilla. CB rush is usually a very viable option but it also tends to render all the games very (/too) similar sci & dom being the viable options.
As for relatively easy Deity games one could recommend the Deity Challenges 3 & 6 (sorry if I got the numbers wrong but I haven't played them all). Austria for extremely easy Pangaea & Polynesia on Archipelago - nice entry level games.
It's less time & nerve consuming to reroll suitable maps than play against all odds for 100 turns & ragequit.
This right here. I almost want to sig this statement. It perfectly sums up my only real grievance with this game. To beat deity you can't just do a very good job of building a civilization, you have to do a ton of very specific and often unrealistic actions that make every successful game almost identical.
Granted, I can't imagine how to make the game be both very hard and also still a good civ building sim experience; best strategies will always exist and high difficulty necessitates their use.
The Pilgrim
Deity
Actually, in some case that would be extremely counterproductive. While indeed the strongest AI often is cheaper to buy into war than anyone else, the very last thing you want is for a runaway to become even stronger by conquering more cities. Bribes are effective when wars slow the involved parties down, not when they feed the runaways. What you need to do is to keep an eye on power balance and make sure AI doesn't profit from battling.
I agree with Grendeldef. It's not necessary. Helpful - yes, game breaking - no.
May I sig this entire part? It's like somebody is talking out of my head with much better wording.
Grendeldef
Trancerelic & coffeeholic
May I sig this entire part? It's like somebody is talking out of my head with much better wording.
Feel free to exploit my wording - it has no gpt value nor am I an avid supporter digital copyrights. It's nice to agree with peeps even if my ethereal being is using others' heads to speak out.
The solution to the Deity problem is obviously (much) better AI - easy in theory but apparently hard or expensive, probably both to implement so there're several patching type semi-solutions which work to variable degree. What is still odd to me are blatantly moronic actions the AI makes with workers - should be very easy if not fix to make it at least much better.
I just so happen to be a software engineer and currently working on a mid level AI system that can choose between various tactics.
It be HARD.
The game I'm coding for isn't nearly as complicated as CiV, there are so many variables to track. It is easy to see them do something and call it dumb after the fact but believe me the AI in this game is really advanced. The fact it successfully functions at all in such a complicated environment is amazing, really.
Grendeldef
Trancerelic & coffeeholic
Yup, absolutely. One should always define more precisely how vague terms like dumb are supposed to be understood but laziness prevents it.
There's no cost effective way to make AI anywhere near as good as a human but some fine tuning should be enough to get rid of most stupid things like feeding workers to barbs/human or using turns x-20 building a road from 3rd city to closest CS without connection to capital. In general there're far too many roads & unimproved tiles near AI cities. Surely AI has enough workers or resources to build them but there's no need give'em away or waste turns & gpt for nothing.
In relation to workers/settlers I'd welcome an option were civilian units get killed instead of captured if run over by a hostile unit - no worker stealing from anyone to speed up the start. Especially after the minor swap in Liberty tree it's extremely helpful to steal a worker(s) early in the game.
I am in a similar position as you are. Winning immortal almost every time and losing deity almost every time. (since the patch) So i keep bashing too
I also noticed that pyramids usually go pretty late, if you're into wonders. Other wonders are definitely pointless to chase on most occasions.
You have to follow a very narrow scientific path to succeed there. For example, if i start with 4 cities, NC should be there no later than turn 80. Education - turns 100 -115. And you better rush a university or two with cash asap.
I took refuge in deity archipelago maps lately, where i win most of the time and with any civ. You can pretty much play a peaceful or warmogering game as you like, since civs are much less psychotic when there are no immediate borders.
Imo, Deity difficulty goes up from low on archipelago, to medium on continents/fractal and to insane on Pangaea. So, maybe you should tone that difficulty down a bit?
I find myself in the same position as you. I win almost every time on Immortal and I can win deity on water heavy maps. Pangaea is almost lost everytime, unless i play Arab with the OP CA unit, English with longbows/2 spies for catching up in tech etc.
Maybe we should start a series of "hard Immortal challenges" where people who´s annoyed with deity pangaea can compete....
Pook
Bloviating
Yes, Moriarte and Johan are speaking what I'm experiencing. Same story.
Light Cleric
ElCee/LC/El Cid
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2011
- Messages
- 3,225
I disagree with the idea that you have to have a certain army size by turn X(like 50-55) AND have NC done by turn 80, because on many Deity maps this is asking a hell of a lot. The early game will often look very ugly but you can pull through afterwards.
Well, I did post this about 3 months ago when I hadn't adjusted completely to the changes yet. It is still very difficult but not "impossible".
I somewhat agree about CB rushes making things too similar . Honestly I think they're a bit too powerful on rushes but I don't know how you could nerf that without making it completely impossible to defend against an early rush from someone like Alex or Darius where you need every bit of firepower you can get. However, after that point, there actually is quite a bit of variation available.
Well, I did post this about 3 months ago when I hadn't adjusted completely to the changes yet.
It is still very difficult but not "impossible". I somewhat agree about CB rushes making things too similar . Honestly I think they're a bit too powerful on rushes but I don't know how you could nerf that without making it completely impossible to defend against an early rush from someone like Alex or Darius where you need every bit of firepower you can get. However, after that point, there actually is quite a bit of variation available.
Shouldnt be to difficult to change the CB effectiveness in the early game while retaining the good defensive capabilities. Just add -33% penalty when attacking cities like the horsemen or maybe even more penalty. This would still make them the best option for defending while nerfing their ability to attack and effectively take down cities.
Light Cleric
ElCee/LC/El Cid
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2011
- Messages
- 3,225
Well the problem there is nothing else in the Archer line has penalties vs cities and it would just be weird. The Composite rush should also still be viable, it's just a bit too easy to pull off right now. That would also kill the AI's rushing power as much as a human's, too, because the most dangerous AI rush is Composites + Swords at ~t55.
Crustacian
Crusty
You don't have to resort to a lesser difficulty level if you are open to some other options:
Try deity level with only one or two ai's, different one or ones each time to get experience with each on this level.
You ask: "Do you have a simple rigid plan that you follow every time that leads to victory, or are you more flexible, changing your strategy to fit the map you're given and the status of your opposing civs?" ~ Yes, flexibility is a must!
For example, I seldom make citadels, but on deity with Mongols being next to me I made a couple with a road next to capital to survive the rampaging Keshiks and other units until I could come up with some decent veteran units to go out in the world with. The road helped me keep damaged units replaced for healing so they could build up vet points without having my citadels empty and pillaged.
Granted the ai does not use Keshiks as well as they can be used. But they can really crank em out!
So what you lack in production can be made up for with durable units and not loosing them. You may not be able to build as many wonders as before either...but capturing them is nice when you can't build them.
Try deity level with only one or two ai's, different one or ones each time to get experience with each on this level.
You ask: "Do you have a simple rigid plan that you follow every time that leads to victory, or are you more flexible, changing your strategy to fit the map you're given and the status of your opposing civs?" ~ Yes, flexibility is a must!
For example, I seldom make citadels, but on deity with Mongols being next to me I made a couple with a road next to capital to survive the rampaging Keshiks and other units until I could come up with some decent veteran units to go out in the world with. The road helped me keep damaged units replaced for healing so they could build up vet points without having my citadels empty and pillaged.
Granted the ai does not use Keshiks as well as they can be used. But they can really crank em out!
So what you lack in production can be made up for with durable units and not loosing them. You may not be able to build as many wonders as before either...but capturing them is nice when you can't build them.
I think your wish has been granted, try newest GOTM 56. Immortal and it should be hard.
InDubioProReo
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
- Messages
- 231
I am also in a similar position. I can win pretty much all my Immortal games, while in Deity, the AI gets such a big tech lead over me that I don't know how to compete with that.
The Pilgrim
Deity
Well, I don't have enough time right now to use it on the forums myself, so it's nice indeed.
Yeah, there are lots of really small things that would have a significant positive impact on AI quality upon fixing. So many of them, I guess, that the devs have a great difficulty to prioritize and choose to focus on something else. Which is also important (like balancing, bugfixes etc), of course. Still it's sad to see AI uber-dumb moments over and over again.
All archery line is OP. One possible solution, imo, is giving it the penalty vs cities and bonuses vs siege along with buffing siege units. That would make more sense and provide more balance.
What of basic infantry? Agreed on the power of range (especially archers), but buffing another range option seems like it is avoiding the actual problem. If the infantry line was more viable, it would 1.) give an alternative to or supplement an archer army 2.) indirectly buff the AI (more difficult to fend of endless infantry spam with a few well-placed archers) 3.) break up the tech-path "rut" of bee-lining science techs while picking up the convenient archery techs along the way (i.e., it may be worth picking up additional military tech if the detour was worth it)
The Pilgrim
Deity
What is the actual problem, in your opinion? I meant more defensive abilities, at least the terrain defense. Because currently siege units are useless until late if you have enough ranged (and there is no reason not to have, since they are cheap).
In my opinion, the actual problem is that it's extremely difficulty to find a balance between different types of units. Too many factors need to be taken into consideration. Defensive play style, aggressive play style, AI logic, human logic, different difficulties and the list goes on. If you try to balance around each of these aspects you get a certain picture which can totally contradict what you get if you balance the game around other aspect. Combining all of them is next to impossible probably. You can't please everyone.
And here we do talk about deity, which shouldn't be even mentioned in the same sentence the word 'balance' appears in. Maybe archery line's OP'ness is not so obvious on lower levels. I have no idea. If the average king level player reaches CB's by the time AI has 30 defense cities, it's safe to say CB's aren't OP.
