On Scandinavia / Vikings

Onagan said:

The West Germanic languages are German, English, Dutch, Afrikaan, Luxembourgish and Frisian.

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And Scots, sort of. Admittedly, what the vast majority of Scots speak is just a silly kind of English, but traditional Scots- the old kind- is at least as distinct from English as Danish is from Norwegian or Portuguese is from Spanish. Admittedly, hardly anyone- at least anyone who isn't over 70 and lives at least nine days solid hiking from civilisation- speaks that anymore, but it still counts.
It's a sort of "common ancestor" scenario- Scots has the same late Medieval ancestors as modern English, but they are distinct enough to be acknowledged as separate languages. Well, either that, or Swedish and Danish should become dialects of "Scandinavian".
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^Cantonese and Mandarin are "dialects" of Chinese, but they're really more like different languages. in fact, Vietnamese, or at least "Latin Vietnamese", could be called a really weird "dialect" of Chinese.

point is, point taken.

(off-topic?!?!?!?!)

TheLastOne36 said:

I support the Scandinavia civ, as it represents all of Scandinavia and they were unified at ounce:

So i'd go with that map and include Finland. It was part of the Unified Scandinavia, (Kalmer Union) so i think it should be in as part of Scandinavia.

But the same thing could be said for Pomerania. Your thoughts?

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On the map, the eastern border of Finland is from 1323. In 1617, the border was moved much further east, to about the place where it is to this day. Pomerania did not belong to the Kalmar Union; it was acquired by Sweden in 1648.

Traitorfish said:

And Scots, sort of. Admittedly, what the vast majority of Scots speak is just a silly kind of English, but traditional Scots- the old kind- is at least as distinct from English as Danish is from Norwegian or Portuguese is from Spanish. Admittedly, hardly anyone- at least anyone who isn't over 70 and lives at least nine days solid hiking from civilisation- speaks that anymore, but it still counts.
It's a sort of "common ancestor" scenario- Scots has the same late Medieval ancestors as modern English, but they are distinct enough to be acknowledged as separate languages. Well, either that, or Swedish and Danish should become dialects of "Scandinavian".
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Swedish, Danish and Norwegian constitute a classical example of the dictum "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy". That does not mean that there can't be communication problems between people from different Scandinavian countries; but they are no bigger than the communication problems that historically (before the appearance of mass media and mass travel) existed between, say, a Yorkshireman and a Devonshire man or a person from Bavaria and one from Schleswig.

On the map, the eastern border of Finland is from 1323. In 1617, the border was moved much further east, to about the place where it is to this day. Pomerania did not belong to the Kalmar Union; it was acquired by Sweden in 1648.

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Also, the western part of the union is missing; Faroe Islands, Iceland and Greenland and also Schleswig and Holstein (lands that the Danes ruled in N-Germany).

Wodan made a pretty good point on how to evaluate civilizations (bringing up Sweden vs. Denmark again)

These points:

• representative of a geographical region (which does not already have representation)
• representative of an ethnic group
• increased sales because of being in the region in question, or belonging to that ethnic group even if living elsewhere
• duration of existence
• size of empire or trade influence
• scientific discoveries / advancement
• cultural history (great buildings, literature, drama, music etc)
• military history (explains itself)

And give points from 0-10 accordingly.
I'd give Denmark these points:
Geography: 2/10. Europe is too populated already.
Ethnicity: 1/10. There are 3 Germanic civilizations in the game already.
Sales: 2/10. Danes are not numerous people.
Duration: 7/10. Their lands have only been conquered once, in WWII.
Size (at it's height): 8/10. The Kalmar Union was sort of a Danish Union, everything was ruled by the Danes and everything, and together, the Kalmar Union was larger than modern-day France, Spain and England together.
Scientific: 4/10. Below average, although they have great persons like Tycho Brahe and I would call being the first country to legalize porn a scientific thing
Cultural history: 5/10. H.C. Andersen and co. are good, Legoland gives an extra point too
Military history: 7/10. Conquering England is an achievement to remember for the rest of times.
Total: 36/70.

And then Sweden:
Geography: 2/10. Same as Denmark.
Ethnicity: 1/10. Same as Denmark.
Sales: 3/10. Judging by the number of people on these forums more Swedes play the game than Danes.
Duration: 8/10. The country has been neutral and never *publically* conquered.
Size (at it's height): 5/10. It wasn't huge but never small.
Scientific: 6/10. Sweden definitely beats Denmark here; Alfred Nobel, Carl von Linné...
Cultural history: 4/10. Meh. Astrid Lindgren adds an extra point.
Military history: 6/10. Beating Russia, Poland, Denmark and Germany couldn't have been easy (even though they were later defeated).
Total: 35/70.

People probably disagree with me, but that's okay.
Now let's take Scandinavia all together:
Geography: 2/10. Europe..
Ethnicity: 1/10. Germanic people..
Sales: 5/10. There are..what? 25 million Scandinavians?
Duration: 8/10. The area has never been completely under foreign rule and 1500 years is quite some time, even though little compared to China, Ethiopia and some others.
Size: 8/10. Same as Denmark.
Scientific: 7/10. Carl von Linné and Tycho Brahe on the same team
Cultural history: 8/10. H.C. Andersen, Astrid Lindgren, Edward Grieg and Snorri Sturluson
Military history: 8/10. The medieval Danish forces and renaissance Swedish forces combined
Total: 47/70.

Poland, Austria, Polynesia, Assyria and others would own Sweden and Denmark if they stood alone.

Sales: 5/10. There are..what? 25 million Scandinavians?

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i'd actually rate that higher. sales could also mean pop culture attraction, right? rememb'r horne'd helms???

i'd actually rate that higher. sales could also mean pop culture attraction, right? rememb'r horne'd helms???

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That's quite true.
The Viking civilization would probably have 9/10-10/10 at the sales point but a Scandinavian civ a little bit less because of the Gandhi-like peaceful Margaret.

^... or, they could make her look like a Swedish blonde. much more sales than Boadicea or Catherine!

SkippyT said:

Wodan made a pretty good point on how to evaluate civilizations (bringing up Sweden vs. Denmark again)

And then Sweden:
Geography: 2/10. Same as Denmark.
Ethnicity: 1/10. Same as Denmark.
Sales: 3/10. Judging by the number of people on these forums more Swedes play the game than Danes.
Duration: 8/10. The country has been neutral and never *publically* conquered.

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And it wasn't unofficially conquered either, if you are thinking of WWII. If it had been, it wouldn't have continued to sell ball bearings to the British, and the Jews and political refugees would have been deported to German camps. (And quite a few critics of Nazism would have been sent to jail.)

Remaining free while all its neighbours were either occupied by Germany or allied with it wasn't easy for Sweden and entailed compromises and concessions that sometimes may have gone too far; but occupied Sweden was not.

As for mehing at Swedish culture: do you think August Strindberg or Carl Michael Bellman are that inferior to H. C. Andersen?

SkippyT said:

Cultural history: 5/10. H.C. Andersen and co. are good, Legoland gives an extra point too

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I'd rate that at least 1 point higher - Karen Blixen... And especially Søren Kierkegaard

Öjevind Lång;5708667 said:

And it wasn't unofficially conquered either, if you are thinking of WWII. If it had been, it wouldn't have continued to sell ball bearings to the British, and the Jews and political refugees would have been deported to German camps. (And quite a few critics of Nazism would have been sent to jail.)

Remaining free while all its neighbours were either occupied by Germany or allied with it wasn't easy for Sweden and entailed compromises and concessions that sometimes may have gone too far; but occupied Sweden was not.

As for mehing at Swedish culture: do you think August Strindberg or Carl Michael Bellman are that inferior to H. C. Andersen?

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I just said meh because I had little to say about it. Swedish books and Swedish music (especially in the later half of the 20th century) was thriving.
But that's interesting, I should read more on it

Perhaps I was a little underly-generous on the cultural points, both Denmark and Sweden should be moved to a little higher level

Have you got the game yet, SkippyT?

Rusty Edge said:

Have you got the game yet, SkippyT?

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Yep, still the same Ragnar with the same "Do you have any undefended coastal cities?" greeting

SkippyT said:

Yep, still the same Ragnar with the same "Do you have any undefended coastal cities?" greeting

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Complete with silly horned helmet and constantly wiping the snot from his nose with his finger?