SGOTM 03 - Geezers

Looks to me like we now have our desired empire borders, and the priority now is to get to mass media as fast as possible.

Civics

We certainly need to change civics as soon as the Hagia Sophia is complete, and obviously need to decide which civics to go for. I remain of the opinion that pacifism will get us there fastest. I'm not sure whether caste system is good yet (get more scientists, but can no longer poprush and there's a lot of towns still needing quite a bit of infrastructure). I think we're nearing the point where we have enough towns to justify swapping from Caste System to Free Speech.

Commerce

We need to get cities working as many commerce tiles as possible now. I think that means we can start chopping quite a few forests. I'd suggest leaving two towns that have a reasonable production ability for defence purposes - Beijing and Coppertownski look best for that. Everywhere else, I'd replace forests, workshops and watermills by cottages, and mines on hills by cottages (on grassland-hills) and windmills (on plains-hills), leaving just enough to make sure each city has a decent food bonus (>= +4 food surplus/turn if possible) and some production to supply infrastructure. The newly captured towns may need more production initially if they have more infrastructure yet to build. Or we can continue poprushing infrastructure, which means we can cottage even more

I'd probably put all cities on to max food as well unless there's anything urgent they need to build, or they're already working all cottageable tiles.

Specialists
Have a couple of cities running specialists - Athens looks best to me for that. Moscow too after we've changed to Free Speech. We should build the National Epic in one of them too asap. From now on we want to avoid having towns running just one or two specialists that aren't going to give us great people (so eg. take the scientist out of New Novgorod).

Military

We're above average in our military size so probably don't have too much to worry about. I guess we want to get a few longbows and maces defending cities, and keep a small supply of knights on both continents to act as a rapid reaction force if we do get attacked. It's very unlikely we'd be facing any sizeable stack, since Mao is the only one who can attack us overland and he now has only 4 cities, 2 of those useless tundra ones, so he's not going to be much of a threat at all. I certainly don't see any need to build up massive military right now (especially if we do go to pacifism so unit costs will be higher). We should get some galleons out there for sea defence, to replace the triremes. We can get by with less military too if we position the galleons and caravels to look out for any potential sea-borne invasion fleet too, so we have reasonable warning if the worst does happen. Lodestone City may need a few additional units since it's alone on Lodestone Isle.

DynamicSpirit said:

We certainly need to change civics as soon as the Hagia Sophia is complete, and obviously need to decide which civics to go for. I remain of the opinion that pacifism will get us there fastest. I'm not sure whether caste system is good yet (get more scientists, but can no longer poprush and there's a lot of towns still needing quite a bit of infrastructure). I think we're nearing the point where we have enough towns to justify swapping from Caste System to Free Speech.

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As I understood your original argument the idea was to go for state religion and pacifism as well caste system. Now you just want state religion and pacifism? Ok so we get an additional +100% great person birthrate but does that justify 3 turns of anarchy with an additional turn of anarchy when we need to go back to non state religion? Maybe I'm missing something but I'm not convinced that the 'advantages' outweigh the disadvantages.

DynamicSpirit said:

We need to get cities working as many commerce tiles as possible now. I think that means we can start chopping quite a few forests. I'd suggest leaving two towns that have a reasonable production ability for defence purposes - Beijing and Coppertownski look best for that. Everywhere else, I'd replace forests, workshops and watermills by cottages, and mines on hills by cottages (on grassland-hills) and windmills (on plains-hills), leaving just enough to make sure each city has a decent food bonus (>= +4 food surplus/turn if possible) and some production to supply infrastructure. The newly captured towns may need more production initially if they have more infrastructure yet to build. Or we can continue poprushing infrastructure, which means we can cottage even more

I'd probably put all cities on to max food as well unless there's anything urgent they need to build, or they're already working all cottageable tiles.

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This seems a bit sweeping and drastic. Considering how long it takes for cottages to grow to towns it may also be a bit futile.

DynamicSpirit said:

Have a couple of cities running specialists - Athens looks best to me for that.
Moscow too after we've changed to Free Speech. We should build the National Epic in one of them too asap. From now on we want to avoid having towns running just one or two specialists that aren't going to give us great people (so eg. take the scientist out of New Novgorod).

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We need to get the library in Athens finished first. I don't entirely see the need to remove all specialists. It gives us some beakers when we're running at 0%.

Sam_Yeager said:

As I understood your original argument the idea was to go for state religion and pacifism as well caste system. Now you just want state religion and pacifism? Ok so we get an additional +100% great person birthrate but does that justify 3 turns of anarchy with an additional turn of anarchy when we need to go back to non state religion? Maybe I'm missing something but I'm not convinced that the 'advantages' outweigh the disadvantages.

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We're almost certainly going to revolt anyway - if not to pacifism, to free religion, as well as to free speech. So really we're looking at one additional revolt turn (for Christianity), plus maybe (?) one for caste system. At current sustainable research rates and unaided by great people, we're looking at 30-ish turns for physics, then 3 equally expensive techs to research afterwards. Next to that, the turns for revolt don't look that significant.

The caste system thing is a good point. I did originally want to use caste system, but I'm having doubts now after looking at the save and seeing how much infrastructure is yet to be built, and which could be most easily built by whipping. As for how that impacts the arguments for pacifism vs free religion: On the one hand if we stick to slavery, then it means we're not getting the best out of pacifism, but on the other hand if we're running fewer specialists, that arguably makes it more important that we get the most great people points we can out of the ones we are running.

(About cottaging everywhere)

Sam_Yeager said:

This seems a bit sweeping and drastic. Considering how long it takes for cottages to grow to towns it may also be a bit futile.

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I don't think it is drastic. To me it's a simple case of, for now, the overriding priority is to get to mass media as quickly as we can, and a cottage will help to achieve that rather more than a mine or a forest will. We don't need the cottages to grow to towns to be useful: All commerce will help, though I think most of the cottages we create now will grow at least to villages before we have mass media. I hope we'll reach mass media before they become towns (otherwise we're probably in real trouble for winning the laurels...).

Sam_Yeager said:

We need to get the library in Athens finished first. I don't entirely see the need to remove all specialists. It gives us some beakers when we're running at 0%.

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Agree on the library in Athens.

I don't think a scientist that has no prospect of giving us a great scientist is worth as much as a cottage at this point (unless the town is at happiness limit); the scientist gives 3 beakers (which is roughly equivalent in value to 3 commerce), while the cottage gives one commerce now, most likely growing to 4 commerce before the game has finished, AND two food that allows the town to continue to grow (or 1 food + 1 hammer if it's on a grass-hill or a plain).

Thanks for the kind words but the save I picked up had already set me up for a good turn set.

My feeling on changing landscape for commerce is we should not do it at the expense of hammers. The reason is we need the infrstructure completed as soon as possible. Once the few crucial buildings are done, letss cottage spam the land. Also, I do agree we need to maximize growth.

I guess the another option is to maximize growth and rush & chop the infrastructure we need.

Nice work, Htadus.

Of course the technician from German Telecom did not even appear on Friday , so I am still without internet connection at home. Another try today. If I cannot pick up the save today, I might need a swap, but I will inform you later today about that.

DynamicSpirit said:

(About cottaging everywhere)


I don't think it is drastic. To me it's a simple case of, for now, the overriding priority is to get to mass media as quickly as we can, and a cottage will help to achieve that rather more than a mine or a forest will. We don't need the cottages to grow to towns to be useful: All commerce will help, though I think most of the cottages we create now will grow at least to villages before we have mass media. I hope we'll reach mass media before they become towns (otherwise we're probably in real trouble for winning the laurels...).

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My concern is that forests once chopped are gone forever. Mines at least can be rebuilt. On that subject, I presume we are not converting our gems to windmills?

Essentially you are making the assumption that we will hardly need to build anything. You may well be right and in that case it will be called a bold decision. However if not, we're stuffed. If you are going to go for wholesale whipping then that will have an even bigger impact on our research. Yes, maybe in the longer term it will eventually pay off, but in the here and now when it would be really helpful to get the free GS from Physics I think it's unwise.

If I do not post a "got it" within the next 4 hours my internet connection still does not work and I will need to swap with Thrallia.

I mentioned earlier that it looked very much as though Vicki was preparing to go to war with someone. Assuming that Toku is the likely target (crosses fingers) should we agree to go war with Toku if Vicki asks us?

A point in favour would be the 'mutual military struggle' bonus that we would get from Vicki, especially since I would envisage a token war on our part. Obvious points against would be the possibility of attack by Toku, although since I don't think he has astronomy this is not too likely, and possible war weariness. However I think WW only kicks if we lose troops in his lands.

Toku can't reach us unless Vicki and Gandhi both go to war against him...or unless he has an OB with Gandhi. Neither one is likely. Thus, unless we wanted to take cities from him, it'd be an entirely token war.

I personally would prefer to go with Free Religion over Pacifism...but I'll take a look at what the differences would be when I open the save. Since it has been over 4 hours since Mark posted a got it, I'll assume a swap and I'm posting my got it right now. I should have my turnset and writeup finished later tonight.

Thrallia said:

Toku can't reach us unless Vicki and Gandhi both go to war against him...or unless he has an OB with Gandhi. Neither one is likely. Thus, unless we wanted to take cities from him, it'd be an entirely token war.

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I agree. I'm actually hoping that at some point Toku will declare war on us - not yet, but once we're near mass media and don't care about any science penalties from warring. That way we get an excuse to take his cities, and up our population for the diplo vote without getting any -1 "you declared war on a friend" penalties from anyone. If we can get others to join such a war, so much the better...

(EDIT: Ditto Mao)

Sam_Yeager said:

IIRC you need to have both ships in the same square. Then you select a unit and load it into another ship. I can't remember if you have to unload it from the original ship first. It's a while since I've done it.

I think the key thing is that you don't move the unit. Perhaps that's why you were having the problem.

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That makes sense, thanks Sam! I'll try that out next time I have a chance (in a private game, not in the SGOTM)

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I can see the case for a forge in Athens but why are we building it in front of a library? There's a perfectly good academy going to waste in that city..

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@Sam-Don't want to seem like a pest but I really am trying to learn and understand what you are saying. I apologize if I am being overly persistent.

Turn 0(1340AD): Trade Liberalism to Mansa for Banking, WM, and 70 gold
IBT: Nothing
Turn 1(1346AD): Beijing Mace>Courthouse, Athens: switch production to Library. Trade Gems to Monty for 5 gpt. Cancel Gems to Rome, Stone to Rome for 4gpt, trade Gems to Rome for 5 gpt. Trade Spices to Hatty for 6 gpt. Mansa and Vicky both have Economics, Mansa will trade it for Astro, but Vicky won't trade. Trade WM to Khan for 80 gold. Sign OB with Mansa(I checked and all our friends are neutral or higher with him. He is pleased with us so I invited him into our bloc)
Unfortunately, Hatty passed Toku in #2 pop.
IBT: Saladin offers Divine Right and 70 gold for Astronomy. I decline
Turn 2(1352AD): I estimate that a courthouse in every city could save us upwards of 30gpt!! I therefore add a courthouse to the queue of every city that doesn't already have one. Switch St. Pete from Temple to Courthouse.
Trade Education to Cyrus for Divine Right, 130 gold, WM(He's the only Taoist, so we want him to be able to go Free Religion, plus he had lots of gold)
Trade Theology to Toku for 260 gold(He had a lot of cash and I figured out that no one would get mad at us for it, so I gave him a useless tech)
Trade Astro to Mansa for Economics, 70 gold, WM(Astro is big, but Economics could potentially gain us 30+ gpt)
I calculate that rushing the Courthouse in St. Pete for 3 pop can be made to only cost us 2 beakers per turn until pop grows once, so I do it.
IBT: Nothing
Turn 3(1358AD): Hagia Sophia is completed in Moscow. Build changed to Courthouse. I know we want to change now to Free Speech and Free Market, I can change to Free Religion for no extra anarchy time, so I do so. The biggest problem I have with Pacifism is that it will double our unit costs...that's +9 gpt, it will also alienate everyone except Gandi, Vicky, and Julius. That's unfortunate because we currently do 49 gpt of trade with Mansa, Hatty, and Monty. We do 32 gpt of trade with Julius, Vicky, and Gandhi. We can't afford to lose any of that gpt, regardless of the increase in GP. We can later adapt Caste System for 2 turns of anarchy if we decide to.
IBT: Nothing
Turn 4(1364AD): Begin transport of 2 workers from Muskovy to Greco-China
IBT: Nothing
Turn 5(1370AD): Nothing
IBT: Nothing
Turn 6(1376AD): Revolution complete. Science @100% is now 90 beakers higher than it was. Breakeven point is now 60% @ 5 gpt positive.
IBT: Nothing
Turn 7(1382AD): Nothing
IBT: Cyrus and Hatty both ask us to stop trading with Monty. I decline both. Hatty stays happy and Cyrus goes to Cautious
Turn 8(1388AD): Trade Paper to Louis XIV for 230 gold and WM.
Trade Liberalism to Cyrus for 190 gold and WM.
Trade Banking to Gandhi for 160 gold and WM.
Shanghai Library>University, Nanjing Courthouse>Library
IBT: Julius asks for Printing Press! I refuse and he goes to cautious I don't know what to do with that, we can gift him a tech to make up for it, but all we know that he doesn't is Education and Printing Press
Turn 9(1394AD): Our science bumps up another 40 points at 100%! Physics is now 7 turns @ 100%, breakeven is still 60% but with 17 gpt surplus
IBT: Huayna asks us to stop trading with Vicky. I decline.
Turn 10(1400AD): I continue building infrastructure with our workers.

Summary:
I made a ton of trades for extra cash and was able to keep our science at 100% for the entirety of my turnset.

We learned Divine Right(which gives us the ability to attempt Versailles if we want to, it would lower our city maint just as the FP would), and Banking and Economics. Physics is only 6 turns away and we are nearly guaranteed to get it first, giving us a GS to use on Electricity. At our current tech pace, with no GS, we are about 65 turns from learning Mass Media.

We've revolted to Free Speech, Free Religion, and Free Markets giving us lots of extra commerce and science. Harbors are now worth a minimum of 3 gpt in every city(+1 gpt on every trade route, of which every city has 3).

Courthouses are queued for every city, 2 were built and 2 or 3 are on the verge of finishing. Universities are also being built.

We have the Hagia Sophia built, Moscow is gaining 10 GE points per turn, Ctown has 6 GE points per turn and is about 30 turns from popping either a GE or Merchant.

We need to do something to entice Julius back to pleased. Perhaps bite the bullet and give him Education or Printing Press. Same with Cyrus. Also, Mansa is willing to trade us Nationalism(I think it is Nationalism)

A side note is that we should watch for a quick route over to Fascism...I believe that is the tech required for a permanent alliance. Getting one with Vicky, Gandhi, and Julius(is that possible?) would make things much easier diplomatically and if we need to go for a space race.

Dagnabit said:

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@Sam-Don't want to seem like a pest but I really am trying to learn and understand what you are saying. I apologize if I am being overly persistent.

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Athens has an academy and normally you need to have a library before you can build one of those. In this case the library was obviously destroyed when we took the city. Because the academy is dependant on the library we are not reaping the benefit of the +50% boost it would normally supply to research from that city.

EDIT: Humphh! Having just written above how I thought the system worked I open up the latest save and find it doesn't work like that at all. It appears that the academy adds it's +50% even in the absence of the library. Btw I notice that Athens has hired a couple of artists. Perhaps we should leave them there and see if we can get a GA to help research Radio.

Again the technician did not show up yesterday, although again I made an appointment with them. They will try again today. Ha, ha, ha ..... If they do not come again I will declare war on German Telecom. My troops are already warming up.

As I do not have internet access at home I need to be skipped until I can report for duty again. Sorry, guys.

Sympathies to Markh, and good luck with your war. Let us know if you need us to gift you a free archer...

I guess that means I'm up next. I'll have a look at the save later today and post any comments for discussion, though I'm not sure there will be any - it sounds like it's just going to be carrying on where Thrallia left off.

btw I guess we ought to start thinking about our mid-game spoiler post?

I am back online from home.

I can take it after Simon then.

Oooooh - cool! Well I haven't yet even downloaded the save so Mark - you may as well go now, save mucking up the roster more than we need.

Sometimes stating that you have an ICBM in your cellar can do miracles.

Ok, got it.

eventually mark will be right back where he was originally gonna be

The game is moving along quite well right now...courthouses and universities are the major infrastructure needing to be built, we should continue selling techs for gold if we can get enough for them, although once we finish research of electricity, we should probably stop trading with the AI not in our bloc...that way any negatives we have with our bloc are gone by the time of the vote.