Civics: need modification?

I also have a less detailed idea called "International doctrine".

* Survivalism (default): no properties
"We are happy as long as you don't mess with us!"

* Isolationism (Monarchy): no foreign trade, +25% commerce, +1 happiness from state religion
"Foreigners should keep to foreigners. We do best by ourselves."

* Cosmopolitism (Currency): +1 trade route, +50% commerce in capital
"Come here from around the world! Buy, sell, publish!"

* Colonialism (Civil Service): -50% distance upkeep
"Let's explore and conquer the rest of the world!"

* Supremacism (Nationalism): -75% war weariness, +25% unit production, -50% culture
"Other peoples are inferior to us. Let's crush them and burn their cities!"

* Globalism (Radio): +1 trade route, +25% culture
"We don't conquer our enemies, we sell them stuff instead!"
 
Thanks for the thoughts, CellKu and Tbox. That is the kind of stuff I like to discuss --bouncing ideas off each other to see what makes sense, what doesn't, and what can be consolidated.

Optimizer, your "Supremacism" could probably be could Imperialism and your "Post-Colonialism" could be called dh_epic's "Globalization".
 
Hmmm, I think the better differentiation is between the Single Person model of rule (Despot, Dictator, Monarch, President) vs the Multiple Person model (Aristocrats, Plutocrats, Junta, Cabinet). Beyond that is what each PARTICULAR government type focuses on-for instance is one system better at industry, finance, culture, research-or warfare. That is what my system is going to primarily focus on in the Government civic area, with a secondary 'Ideology' section that further delineates the government-i.e. do the Priests (Theocratic) rule as an Oligarchy (collection of Priests) a single-person Dictatorship ('High Priest) or a Republic (say as Modern day Iran).
Hope that makes sense.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Actually, let me see if I can explain a bit better.

1) Despotism is an informal ruling structure-where an individual or group seizes power simply because they can, and only for as long as they can. Pre-City tribal structures and post-Revolutionary France are classic examples of this type of government.

2) Dictatorship-a system of Rule in which one or more sections of society ask an individual to rule them-either for life or for a specific period of time. Stalinist Russia, post-Civil War England and late-Republican Rome are classic examples of this type of Rule.

3) Oligarchy-like a Dictatorship, only by a group of people rather than an individual. Oligarchies are usually formed by people simply on the basis of their greater power but-unlike Despotisms-the Rule is more formalised in nature. Etruscan Italy and pre-Democracy Greece are good examples of this type of rule-as was the pre-Stalinist Russian Republic (a Workers Oligarchy, if you will).

4) Monarchy-a formalised Rulership structure based purely on Heredity. Dictatorships, out of interest, can and have developed quite nicely into monarchies. Examples are too many to mention.

5) Republic-A democractic or Pseudo-democratic rulership in which the people invest the majority of the power into the hands of a single head of state-usually a President or Proconsul. The amount of 'checks and balances' which can exist may vary from government to government, but the head of state almost always has veto power. Republican Rome and Modern US are classic examples of this type of government, as are many of the modern Latin American governments.

6) Democracy-a system in which people elect parties (via members of Parliament or MP's) rather than a specific head of state-but with a nominal 'Prime Minister' (normally the leader of the governing party) who maintains order and appoints Cabinet members. However, the Prime Minister can be voted down on any issue-either by his own party, or a cross bench of government and opposition MP's. The degree to which actual 'Democracy' is maintained will differ from state to state. Most modern European states have some kind of Democracy-whether they call it a 'Republic' (with a symbolic President) or a 'Constitutional Monarchy' (with a symbolic King or Queen).

Other types of governments which can exist are 'Autonomous Collectives', 'Juntas' and 'Police States'-though I am not sure that this isn't already effectively covered by other government or civic types, or needs a seperate civic at all.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Great stuff, Aussie. Thank you.

Hey, this thread's gettin' big. Cool beans. :mischief:



Hey, have you guys voted in the Firaxis' poll?!


In the section concerning what you would like to see added/expanded in the game, I was going to mention Civics. But, I decided to make mention of the Religion aspect of the game because I figure it's easier for me to moddify some civics into the game than change the whole religion part!
 
With the units which need to be added, they say pick 4 only. Is that 4 per era, or 4 overall-because that is one BIG list!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Aussie_Lurker said:
With the units which need to be added, they say pick 4 only. Is that 4 per era, or 4 overall-because that is one BIG list!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Yeah, I agree. :sad: I wanted to pick more. Actually, I wish the would have allowed us to be more specific about what units we actually think need to be added (up to 4).
 
Colonel Kraken said:
Yeah, I agree. :sad: I wanted to pick more. Actually, I wish the would have allowed us to be more specific about what units we actually think need to be added (up to 4).
And I screwed that one... I picked way more than 4... Was too excited about what should be added so that I didn't read closely enough. But well, hopefully they don't throw it away.

Back to the topic: Aussie_Lurker, what is the difference between your Republic if you take the US as an example for it and your democracy where people elect MPs. In the US, they elect MPs, as well. Is the only difference how the executive (president, prime minister) is elected, meaning directly by the people or indirectly via the MPs? And, wouldn't it be more appropriate to call a system a democracy where the people elect also the executive, because it seems in such a system the people have more power. Moreover, with the impeachment-procedure the US has a mechanism for throwing out the president after he is elected if he is unbearable. The democratic mechanisms etc. in other Western countries which consider themselves democracies do vary, but they don't seem to be sooo different that they should be considered as a completely different category - at least on that level of abstraction that we look at now in you civic column.

Second, is your dictatorship something like a more advanced despotism? Thinking about my question, consider the following:
A dictator, as well, will only remain in power for as long as he can. And does a dictator always needs to be "asked" by a group to rule. Many military rulers in what one would call dictatorships today seized their power by using the military for their own benefit. I am not sure whether one could consider that as "being asked".

Third, I like your "ideology"-idea, perhaps you could elaborate a bit more on that. Maybe your "Police-State", "Junta" etc. could be dealt with in that category, e.g. how much should people be controlled could be seen as fitting into that column. What do you think?
 
You may note, CellKu, that I noted a Republic is a democratic instituation-just like 'Democracy' itself obviously is. For me the difference really does come down to two factors-how the Head of State is chosen, and how much power the Head of State has. In a Republic, the greater part of the power (especially the military) is invested in the Head of State-wheras in a 'Democracy' any head of state is usually just a 'minor functionary' with Symbolic power only. If the Head of State of a Republic could not be impeached or otherwise voted out, then it would be a Dictatorship. Maybe a better way to think of it is that 'Democracy' in this case refers to 'Parliamentary Democracy', and a Republic is a 'Presidential Democracy'.
And yes, Dictatorships are pretty much just 'formalised' Despotisms. It should be noted, though, that in two famous examples-namely Rome and post-Civil War England-the elected representatives appointed the Dictator (Julius Caesar and Oliver Cromwell respectively).

As for 'Ideology', I am thinking such things as 'Feudalistic', 'Socialist', 'Fascist', 'Militaristic' (and YES, I do believe that Fascist and Militarist are different from each other), 'Theocratic' and Plutocratic.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Aussi_Lurker, thanks for your clarification! Refering to the concepts of Parliamentary Democracy and Presidential Democracy does clarify that for me. And I apologize for my unprecise statement: I did note that you characterized both systems as democratic, but my statement did not reflect that clearly.
What makes it interesting now is which Civ4-advantages/disadvantages you will give to these forms of government.

I think with your "Ideology"-column you are on a very interesting track. That should have been included in Civ4 right from the beginning! And certainly Fascist and Militarist are NOT the same. Who would think that??

CellKu
 
There are many good ideas in this thread, but when you post civic ideas you should also post suggestions for gameplay effects. Then we can rationalize, so we do not have tons of choices that are almost similar.
 
I think the primary advantage/disadvantage between the Republic and Democracy government civics might be the degree to which they suffer from war weariness, and what extra yields their specialists produce. Though I confess that I have not given it enough thought yet.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
If we talk Presidential vs Parliamentary democracy, I agree that the latter one should be more lethal to war weariness and other kinds of unhappiness. I am not sure how to offset this advantage.
 
Here is my current setup. Please tell me if any option is unbalanced, ahistorical or just strange.

GOVERNMENT
Despotism: default
Hereditary Rule (Monarchy, L): +3 happiness from Palace, +1 happiness from Courthouse
Aristocracy (Feudalism, L): +2 happiness in largest cities, +2 science/specialist
One Party State (Fascism, H): +3 happiness from Barracks & Jail
Presidency (Constitution, M): +50% commerce
Parliament (Democracy, M): +50% war weariness, +75% commerce
Mainly a dilemma between stability and science/culture. The "freer" government forms require peace, a large culture budget and/or plenty of luxuries.

LABOR
Informal: default
Slavery (Bronze Working, M): can population-rush, +25% food, -25% commerce
Unhappiness from population-rushing is increased, so Slavery is only practical together with oppressive (happiness-providing) civics like Hereditary Rule and Warrior Class.
Privilege Society (Currency, L): +1 prod from Farm, +1 happiness from Forest & Jungle
The happiness from Forests/Jungles in a Privilege Society comes from upper-class hunting privileges. Because of hunting, many forests in western Europe survived the medieval colonization, to the joy of present-day environmentalists.
Labor Market (Liberalism, N): +1 hammer from mine/workshop/lumbermill
Differs from the Privilege society because any person can apply for any job. Lack of worker rights makes work hard and dangerous, and unemployment is a threat. Think sweatshops.
Labor Rights (Communism, H): +3 health, +2 happiness from Forge, Factory & Supermarket
The choice depends on what kind of infrastructure you have. An agricultural empire will benefit from Privilege Society. A society with plenty of industrial will love Labor Market. A society with large population will need Labor Rights.

ECONOMY
Barter: default - no cottage growth
Chartering (Currency, L): can gold-rush
Mercantilism (Banking, L): no foreign trade, unlimited Merchants
Free Market (Economics, L): +100% cottage growth, can gold-rush
State Property (Communism, H): +100% worker rate, unlimited Engineers
State Property is great for building up your infrastructure when entering the industrial age. (Railroads are made more expensive and give commercial bonuses to Towns, Factory Farms are introduced as an upgrade to Farms. The high upkeep cost is due to all the bureaucrats needed. State Property is not only thought as modelling communist dictatorship like the Soviet Union and North Korea, but any goverment with great influence over industry, like the USA during the New Deal or labour-ruled European states.) The Unlimited Engineers models the ability of a socialist state to abolish unemployment by assigning people to public works. (A citizen specialist can be regarded as unemployed)
Environmentalism (Biology, H): +3 health, +1 happiness from Forest & Jungle, +1 food from Windmill
I have thought of implementing auto-upgrade for other terrain improvements than cottages, to model private enterprise.

RELIGION
Paganism: default
Leader Cult (Monotheism, H): no State Rel, no foreign religions spread, +2 happiness from Colosseum & Broadcast Tower, -50% war weariness
Preferred symbol: A gigantic bronze statue. The Leader Cult models as different societies as monotheistic Egypt, imperial Rome and 20th century's fascist and communist states. A good choice if you have no world religion of your own.
Theocracy (Priesthood, M): no foreign religions spread, +2 happiness from State Rel, Missionaries without Monastery, unlimited Priests
Choose this if you have founded a religion.
Sanctioned Religion (Divine Right, M): +50% culture, Missionaries without Monastery
Preferred symbol: A coronation - hands placing a crown on a bowing head. Models a religious authority and a civil one giving each other legitimity, as in Catholicism.
Reformed Religion (Printing Press, N): +25% building & unit production with State Rel
Preferred symbol: A stack of printed books. Models a state-controlled church with little economic resources, preaching spartan ideals, as in England and Scandinavia.
Free Religion (Liberalism, N): no State Rel, +1 happiness for each religion, +20% science

ARMY
Militia: default
Warrior Class (Archery, L): +1 happiness for each military unit, 10 free units
Warrior Class is the choice for stability.
Professional Army (Civil Service, N): +3 experience points, +1 gold/unit
Conscription (Nationalism, H): can draft 5 units/turn, lower unit upkeep cost
In great late-game wars, conscription will be needed for survival.
Self Defense Force (Constitution, L): +100% war weariness, +1 gold/unit +1 trade route

ORGANIZATION
City States: default
Nomadism (Horseback Riding, M): 30 free units, units produced with food, -1 food from Farm, -50% science & culture, -50% worker rate, no war weariness
This civic might be hard to balance. The aim is to make a "raider" civilization like the Huns or Mongolia which doesn't build great cities (but occasionally conquers them). A Nomadic civilization would win many wars but "lose the peace".
Vassalage (Feudalism, L): -50% unit upkeep
Centralization (Civil Service, H): +50% prod & commerce from capital
Nation State (Nationalism, H): medium upkeep, -50% war weariness, +100% Great People with State Rel
Federation (Constitution, L): no upkeep due to distance, -50% upkeep due to number of cities, +25% culture
Small? Choose Centralization or Nation State. Large? Choose Vassalage or Federation.

GENDER
Tribal Family: default
Preferred symbol: A campfire
Polygamy (Agriculture, N): +30% food, -30% commerce, +20% unit prod
Preferred symbol: Woman in a burqha
Patriarchy (Code of Laws, N): +20% food, -10% commerce
Preferred symbol: A male symbol
Equal Rights (Liberalism, N): +100% Great People
Preferred symbol: A balance scale
Birth Control (Medicine, M): medium upkeep, +100% Great People, +2 happiness from Hospital, units produced with food
Preferred symbol: A packed condom
This choice will mainly depend on your size. A leader with room left for expansion will want increased birth rates.
 
Well, though it is rough-after all, it WAS done before I got my hands on the game, here is a repost of my ideas for a broader civic system (including possible in-game effects). Feel free to read and critique-though please don't limit criticisms to 'oh, that idea SUCKS!!' :mischief: -instead, please add any suggestions you might have for changing one of my ideas, I am ALWAYS happy to incorporate them!
You might be interested to know that I am already 75% of the way towards modding slavery-such that it gives you a free slave specialist in every city AND gives you a chance to build a Slave_Labour_System National Project-which adds a further slave specialist to your city.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 

Attachments

You guys have some really interesting ideas. Having briefly scanned this thread, I'm now going to study it in detail.

I could list my set of 6 civics (and I may do so later), but I'd rather introduce an additional concept into the mix first.

As much as I could, I made each civic focussed on one or two main factors and then made those on a graduated scale, often with one traded off against the other. Where it suited the particular option, I included something extra.

For example:
AGGRESSION
Pacifism +25% war weariness, -1 happy from barracks, +100%GP rate
Normal (default) normal war weariness, no effect from barracks, no other FX
Nationalism normal war weariness, no effect from barracks, draft 3 units/turn
Militarism -50% war weariness, +1 happy from barracks, -2 health

Limiting and monodimensional or logical and a cool idea?
I'd be interested in your thoughts.

PS I agree with some of the other posters that the standard civics seem jumbled up.
PPS Maybe this is similar to what Impaler[WrG] had in mind?
 
Some civic combinations are more or less absurd (Universal Suffrage and Slavery). Since they cannot be disallowed, the properties should be picked so that "absurd" combinations work very badly together.
 
Optimizer said:
Some civic combinations are more or less absurd (Universal Suffrage and Slavery). Since they cannot be disallowed, the properties should be picked so that "absurd" combinations work very badly together.

I agree. This is why I think that Free Speech should increase war wairiness because:

1) It does in real life
2) So it works badly with a police state- just like in real life.
 
Actually, this combination isn't as absurd as you might think. In many ways, Athens had Universal Sufferage-in so far as ALL 'citizens' could vote on important issues effecting the City-State. They still had slaves, of course, but these slaves weren't considered CITIZENS!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Aussie_Lurker said:
They still had slaves, of course, but these slaves weren't considered CITIZENS!!
OK - you got me there. Maybe the same could be said about pre-civil war southern US, too.

When it comes to free speech, the extension of free speech is very closely related to the rate of governmental oppression. I can hardly imagine a dictatorship with free speech or a functional democracy without it. Therefore, the Free Speech option should be integrated into the Government category. (Of course this means free speech in a _political_ context. A democracy might still censor sex, violence and certain commercial messages.)
 
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