Deity Gliese #5, Willem Van Oranje

Dirk1302: Well I don't have to exclude anything right away. The only clear concession to tech over war I'm pondering is sacrificing some research on Optics next in order to trade for that before pushing for Lib in order to pick Astronomy if I win that race and do get a scout or two out. Finding empty land and/or getting circumnavigation could be helpful. If there's a neighbour reasonably close to the east that is vulnerable and has some decent land war is still a possibility.
About UN: It seems to me that if I can convert to hindu and work that block I might get the necessary votes against Gandhi, given that the religious blocks don't change. Sid's Sushi could also help in getting votes.

You are doing a good job in playing this game, but I think you hardly stand a chance.

Why is it that, say, masonry becomes cheaper once you research mystiscism? I never heard of this before. What is the general rule to see if a tech becomes cheaper?

keep uup the good work man, I love lurking threads like these and am learning lots from great players like you. I wish I could give you some advice but since I can only win at emperor - sometimes - I can honestly say I have no clue what to do.

Shurdus said:

Why is it that, say, masonry becomes cheaper once you research mystiscism? I never heard of this before. What is the general rule to see if a tech becomes cheaper?

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I don't know anything about that. Maybe it's a cheaper route to masonry than the mining route? Dunno.
I even modded this functionality into (or rather had it modded into) a modmod for Fall from Heaven since I wanted it. I've never seen proof of a tech lowering the cost of a future tech when I played o.O

Shurdus said:

Why is it that, say, masonry becomes cheaper once you research mystiscism? I never heard of this before. What is the general rule to see if a tech becomes cheaper?

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The amount of prerequisite techs you own affects the price. In the case of masonry, you have two prerequisites: Mining and Mysticism. The costs are the same if you have either one, but cheaper if you have both.

Grey Fox said:

I don't know anything about that. Maybe it's a cheaper route to masonry than the mining route? Dunno.
I even modded this functionality into (or rather had it modded into) a modmod for Fall from Heaven since I wanted it. I've never seen proof of a tech lowering the cost of a future tech when I played o.O

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Techs get cheaper the number of prerequisites you have. Some of these bonus is mandatory, but when there are optional routes you can enjoy them as well.

For example, you get a 20% bonus for researching Masonry with Mining, and a 20% bonus for researching Masonry with Mysticism. You have a 40% bonus for researching Masonry with both.

Ha ok, thanks guys!

I am ashamed to adm,it that I had no clue that myst is a prereq for masonry, it never seemed relevant in my games because I rarely research masonry before myst.

Anyway, thanks for the replies!

Isn't there a reduction of a technology for every civ that you have met that also has it? How does that work?

I do not know the exact formula, but it is something like this.

A tech costs anything between ( beakers max - amount of civs that know the tech * a portion of beakers max/ beakers max )

this way if you are the first you are charged 100% of the beakers, if another civ knows it there is a certain discount, if another civ knows it you get another discount. the discount is lineair afaik, and it is capped so that you always will have to reseach at least so much % of the max cost in beakers.

I'm been kind of wondering about all the research modifiers. Here is what I know off the top of my head:

Map Size Modifier (150% at Huge)
Difficulty Modifier (130% at Deity)
AI Cost Modifier (60% at Diety not for human)
Prerequisite Reduction (20% per prereq)
# Civ w/ Tech Modifier (don't know the numerical value)
Game Speed Modifier (300% for Marathon)

This is what i've read on the forums, is there anything else I haven't picked up yet?

Round 4, 580 AD - 940 AD (18 turns):

A short set since it's been a couple of days since the last update and a lot happened.

580: Paper -> Optics. I decided to trade Paper around so I left research to get a turn's worth into Optics.
I began the round with opening borders with Churchill and Pacal and found that I could indeed trade with both, granting +32 beakers at 100%. I found this very strange, partly because I had not encountered Pacal's borders and partly because it seemed Hannibal blocked both of them from me (more on that later). At least Churchill cost me nothing since I discovered him this very turn but I might have missed out on a little trade with Pacal.

600: Optics -> Education, going for Lib. I trade Paper around, starting with Gandhi since Pacal was his worst enemy but no other conflicts threatened. All in all I gave Paper and got a -1 relation from Gandhi (after trading with Pacal) in exchange for getting Currency, Monotheism, Optics, Construction, 55 gold and a map. Pretty good all things considered.







Here's a look at the strange circumstances of my trade with Churchill and Pacal. I can't figure it out.

a) I hadn't discovered Pacal's border but one of his cities is touching Gandhi's borders, is that enough? Note that it is cut off from his main cities by Hannibal.

b) I can't reach Churchill without going through Hannibal's area, what gives?



An overview of the northern lands, Hannibal is the largest with 9 cities, followed by Churchill at 6 and Pacal with only 4. In total 19 cities in the hindu block to Gandhi's (at this point).



620: A trireme finished in Den Haag and I upgraded him to a caravel for 50 gold to start looking for the last two civs and to race for the cirumnavigation bonus.

660: Pacal becomes a vassal of Hannibal peacefully, making Hannibal and Gandhi each other's new worst enemies (good since I was H's worst enemy up until now).

680: My caravel doesn't have to search long before I find Darius on a landmass just to the east of me. He's quite backwards meaning we're at about tech parity, though not the same tech exactly. He only has 3 cities though and is tao but not the founder.





I decide to not trade with Darius immediately, he's only made contact with Pacal and Hannibal who're both annoyed with him and thus wont trade techs so I decide to wait and see. Since Darius is taoist but not the founder, he must be semi-isolated with the last civ, who's in all likelihood going to be the taoist founder and on friendly terms, though you never know with aggressive civs.

700: I decide to go ahead and trade after all since Darius is pursuing Optics on his own. I do this despite there being a chance of me invading him later since I can use the techs he offer for my military and I don't want to completely fall behind the others.



720: I was hoping for a GS to speed Education along to race for Lib but 79% wasn't enough this time and I get a GM. He can help me achieve the same goal though by making a trade mission and letting me deficit research for a while. I decide to do a suboptimal trade with Gandhi rather than waiting for a caravel to be built to take me to the last civ who built the TOA (the one caravel I have being concerned with circumnavigating). I want the money fast, the exact amount is less important. The GM starts his 6 turn trech toward Bombay (the thrice holy city).

Darius becomes WHEOOHRN but I find out the next turn that Wang and he is friendly with each other and he hasn't got astronomy to reach anyone else, what is going on?

740: UoS BIDL (Churchill). I meet the last civ, Wang Kon who is indeed taoist and on friendly terms with Darius. I waste no time trading with him as well, putting the three of us on tech parity. Wang Kong has 6 cities making it 9 total on the eastern landmass.
The most important thing here might actually be the map believe it or not, the rest is just gravy. I want that circumnavigation bonus if I'm going to war in the future. Since Darius and Wang are the weakest targets it could also be very useful to know the lay of the land should I invade them.



Their land is not the best but it's great compared to my joke of a land. Then again they're two civs sharing it. The food heavy Persian capital looks juicy and has TGW, THG and AW, Seoul has MoM and TOA and there's a taoist shrine in Wonsan. A couple of other cities looks decent for both emancipation cottages and/or industrial-era production.





760: Hagia Sophia BIDL (Pacal). I get the circumnavigation bonus from Wang's map.

780: Gandhi temporarilly becomes pleased with me and I beg 40 gold from him. Churchill got the same treatment a few turns earlier but refused. It's likely I hadn't known him long enough to get 40, I should probably have waited a bit longer or begged for 30 gold.

800: I'm asked if I want to stop the war against Gandhi. What war? Well I guess Hannibal declared on him then, it would really help if we were told who's fighting when we're asked to make these votes. I can only imagine how difficult this might be to keep track of in an earth 18-civs scenario for example, especially when you've not yet been told because it happened the same turn!
I vote no of course, not that it's likely to help.

820: The vote is in and unsurprisingly, Gandhi gets his wish and the war is aborted before it even begun.



840: Education -> Liberalism. Gandhi and Churchill get Astronomy, Pacal follow a turn or so later. My GM arrives in Bombay the same turn and I cash in 1100 gold to keep the slider at 100% all the way through lib. I would probably have gotten a couple of hundred extra in the twice-holy city of Vijayanagara that is on Hannibal's continent but it would have taken 3 turns extra even though I had a galley ready to transport, which would cost me a turn on Lib since I lack funds.



860: Hannibal becomes cautious and I OB with him and trade resources. He's WHEOOHRN again though which is not good. Pacal is his vassal and he has a peace treaty with Gandhi, making me and Churchill the only possible targets. He's cautious with me and pleased with Churchill, which means, you guessed it, I'm probably his target!
Fortunately his closed borders policy with Gandhi won't let him send troops until he gets astronomy but this is not good for diplo and could be dangerous after he gets astronomy.

940: One turn from Lib and I end the round. Taj Mahal BIDL (Hannibal). Sistine Chapel BIDL (Pacal). I belatedly switch all EPs to Gandhi deeming them insufficient to carry out city revolt missions on Darius or Wang especially since I've not been able to spie on them very long. Gandhi is closest for stealing purposes and also the most dangerous opponent.

Close to the end of the 4th round I find an unoccupied (apart from barbs) landmass just to the north, it looks sizeable and green. Churchill, Pacal and Gandhi already have Astronomy though so if I plan on claiming it I will have to race them.



Empire shots, all cities but silver-junk city is building universities to enable Oxford's in the capital. I'm trading stone from Churchill which should help in that endevour.





Techs, I can trade Gandhi or Hannibal but either will piss off some civs. Hannibal will give Nationalism for Edu+ 350g or Guilds and Music for Edu+ 130 g. Gandhi will give PP for Edu and 485 gold.
Wang and Churchill are close to getting Edu on their own.



Demographics:



Relations:



Hannibal is the worst enemy of Gandhi, Wang and Darius.
Gandhi is the worst enemy of Hannibal.
Wang is the worst enemy of Pacal.

Trading with H is going to piss off Gandhi and the taoist block and trading with Gandhi is going to piss of Hannibal (and in extension his vassal Pacal).
I'm thinking cuirassiers as closest military tech since I have both horses and iron, note that Hannibal and Pacal already have it. If I trade H for Nationalism I might then be able to trade him Astronomy (that I'll pick from lib) for Military Trad. OTOH if Hannibal is looking to invade me, maybe I shouldn't give him Astronomy.

With the green land to the north I'm thinking I should try to claim that asap, so settlers, workers, units and transports are needed once the universities have been whipped, the capital should have some time for it after finishing the university there before the other cities have enabled Oxford's. If that goes well I can then consider a cavalry invasion of wang and darius or perhaps get cannons there as well.

In any case I have a shot at expanding here both by peaceful and by agressive means and I think I should do all I can to get some more land!

That island looks marvelous, if you can settle all of it you'll probably get to 10 good cities which means you can wait until AL. I'm not thinking it's all easy but your position would really look good in that case. You'll have to be prepared to fight a tedious but exciting endgame in that case but in my experience these endgames can often be won, most of my deity games come down to these sort of fights anyway. Far from hopeless this situation imo.

I would postpone the unis btw and go for settling right away.

Dirk1302 said:

That island looks marvelous, if you can settle all of it you'll probably get to 10 good cities which means you can wait until AL. I'm not thinking it's all easy but your position would really look good in that case. You'll have to be prepared to fight a tedious but exciting endgame in that case but in my experience these endgames can often be won, most of my deity games come down to these sort of fights anyway. Far from hopeless this situation imo.

I would postpone the unis btw and go for settling right away.

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Hmm you're right I should postpone them, except in capital, but even there I should focus more on production than commerce right now to speed things up. I have a galley that I can upgrade to galleon that could start shipping the first few units. AI will usually settle first then capture barb cities so I might leave the barb city alone and send settlers first and then capture it with 2nd/3rd wave if psosible. It's probably not in an optimal location but settlers are expensive.
What do you think I should do in trading and isn't Hannibal going to kill me soon?

Han'll go for Ghandi again since he's the nearest land target and he hates him. Unless Ghandi's so strong that Han can't declare on him anymore. Then he might go for you.Won't be easy for him though since he can't go through Ghandi land. If you're not planning on a renaissance war anymore trading isn't that important now, settling the island is, then you should do research/trade towards AL. 10 cities is usually not enough to win the game but it is enough to take on another deity civ to double land and then take it from there.

Rotten badluck you can't switch to hindu btw, that would help enormously. I think you should trade edu for guilds with Han, switch FM etc. give Han some more. The traded with worst enemies demiter is almost gone, Han can be your friend in the future, he's just in the right place (other side of Ghandi) and he's rather powerful, you and Han need each other. The other ais apart from Ghandi are rather insignificant.

Can he go into WHEOOHRN against someone he has a peace treaty with? A renaissance war might not be necessary if I can claim the island, and WK and Darius is not that backwards in any case, but we'll see. It would be good to get something to counter Hannibal's cuirassiers though, like curs of my own since he might be after me afterl all and he will have astronomy soon one way or the other.
Diplomacy is looking bad right now with the hindu and tao block not getting along so getting them all to hate Gandhi might not be possible. OTOH if I wipe out the tao block it could be easier to get a UN backdoor win if I don't want to confront Gandhi.

Can an AI civ attack a land target with his only land route blocked off by closed borders if he doesn't have a pre-existant navy? Wouldn't the pathfinding bug that occurs when a mountain blocks off a chokepoint apply, and he wouldn't build ships to ferry his troops?

I think wheoohrn against someone you have a peace treaty with is possible but i'm not 100 % sure. Diplomacy wise i'd just ignore everyone except Han, unless you still want to try the UN win but in that case my advice is rather useless. If Han's after you after all the game might just get too difficult and i might give up. The island needs to be settled and oxford needs to be build soon after, no time for defense now. I'd play on as if he isn't after you, probably he isn't anyway.

Joshua368 said:

Can an AI civ attack a land target with his only land route blocked off by closed borders if he doesn't have a pre-existant navy? Wouldn't the pathfinding bug that occurs when a mountain blocks off a chokepoint apply, and he wouldn't build ships to ferry his troops?

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That fleetingly crossed my mind.Indeed that's what happened in an earlier Gliese game. But i think it's likely that where the ai coding doesn't take a mountain block into account it might well be prepared for this more likely situation.

If Han stays in wheoorhn forever now it'd be great to check for this phenomenon again.

Dirk1302 said:

That fleetingly crossed my mind.Indeed that's what happened in an earlier Gliese game. But i think it's likely that where the ai coding doesn't take a mountain block into account it might well be prepared for this more likely situation.

If Han stays in wheoorhn forever now it'd be great to check for this phenomenon again.

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How would the pathfinding bug work when Hannibal's land is on two continents though? Would he transport his troops from the separated continent to the connected one and then try to walk them over land? Or would his troops have two different pathfindinds (separated continent would sail, connected would walk)?

Interesting game.

Send a caravel over to Han and see what units he is building. If amassing galleys to be upgraded to galleons later, then you know to watch out. In this case, keep an eye on his fleet. Otherwise, you needn't be concerned.

Once a fleet of galleons leaves Han's territory, how many turns would you have to draft a defensive army if you are the target?

I think you'll find that the path finding with a mountain blocking the land route, will Prevent the AI from launching a naval invasion.

I played an Emperor game, where Joao, had his land route to me blocked by a mountain. He never launched via sea, or tried to settle available land Via sea either.

BUT once he got Paratroopers, he kept declaring war, and launching Paratroops over the Mountain to attack me. Even though it was jets v's Prop planes, and Paratroops V's infantry. He'd launch an attack, Drop in 5 or so Paratroops, walk to my nearest city, if I didn't kill them before hand, and proceed to attack.

Ships were just for usual fishing net pillaging, but No sea attacks ever launched.

Map was a Big/Small, with mountains blocking the Joint between the 2.