Korea?
- Thread starter volbound1700
- Start date
Does anybody know how to get spawns and flip zones to work correctly? I tackled this project again over the weekend, and I'm getting some very screwy test results.
I am making changes to the Consts and RiseandFall files. I started by going into the Consts file and changing the Mayan spawn location to (110, 47), which is one square east of Seoul. No problems there: that is now where they spawn.
I then went into the RiseandFall file, and changed starting techs and starting units. Those changes also work without a hitch. I also get workers now, which I hadn't been getting in earlier stabs at this project.
I then went back to the Consts file and defined CoreAreas and NormalAreas and BroaderAreas. I started by making all of these identical: TL is (106, 43) and BR is (110, 47): basically, the whole Korean peninusula plus a good chunk of southern Manchuria east of (and including) the Laodung peninsula. But when I tested it, no cities inside this zone would flip.
I eventually gave up on getting the flips to work and moved on to making the CityName changes. Lo and behold, not only did that work, but suddenly the flips started working too. Except when they didn't:
In one test game, for instance, the Chinese had built Sanshan (east of Laodung) and the Japanese had built Uonsan (three tiles east of Sanshan). Both cities were firmly within what should be the Korean starting zone. Sanshan flipped, but Uonsan did not. Did the Japanese refuse the flip? I don't think so, because Korea was at peace with them and remained at peace with them long after Sanshan flipped. For all the world, it looked at though Uonsan just hadn't been marked for "flipping."
Stranger still was the behavior of Qindaong, which is two tiles south of the L. peninsula. This tile is also defined as within the Korea spawn zone, because I hadn't got fancy enough to try excluding it. In another test game, as the Japanese I built Chunchon (just north of Seoul) to see if it would flip when Korea spawned. It did, and so did Qindaong, which China had built. No surprises so far.
When invited to take over as the Koreans I accepted, and found that my starting units had spawned outside of the Korea peninsula. Maybe that's not a surprise, since Chunchon (a Japanese city) was right next to their spawn tile. But the Korean starting units were in Qindaong. Or, rather, they were standing on the City Ruins in the square where Qindaong had been. I don't understand what that's about, but okay.
Korea was at war with China, so I slowly started moving my starting stack through Chinese territory, past Beijing and toward Manchuria. I hadn't gotten far when suddenly Qindaong reappeared: not only as a size 8 city, but as the Korean capital.
The only changes I made were to the Consts and RiseandFall files. To RaF, I only changed starting techs and starting units. To Consts, I changed starting locations and the three Core/Normal/BroaderArea settings. (I also changed "neighbor" and "biology" settings, but those seem irrelevant to what is going on.) Anyone have any ideas?
I am making changes to the Consts and RiseandFall files. I started by going into the Consts file and changing the Mayan spawn location to (110, 47), which is one square east of Seoul. No problems there: that is now where they spawn.
I then went into the RiseandFall file, and changed starting techs and starting units. Those changes also work without a hitch. I also get workers now, which I hadn't been getting in earlier stabs at this project.
I then went back to the Consts file and defined CoreAreas and NormalAreas and BroaderAreas. I started by making all of these identical: TL is (106, 43) and BR is (110, 47): basically, the whole Korean peninusula plus a good chunk of southern Manchuria east of (and including) the Laodung peninsula. But when I tested it, no cities inside this zone would flip.
I eventually gave up on getting the flips to work and moved on to making the CityName changes. Lo and behold, not only did that work, but suddenly the flips started working too. Except when they didn't:
In one test game, for instance, the Chinese had built Sanshan (east of Laodung) and the Japanese had built Uonsan (three tiles east of Sanshan). Both cities were firmly within what should be the Korean starting zone. Sanshan flipped, but Uonsan did not. Did the Japanese refuse the flip? I don't think so, because Korea was at peace with them and remained at peace with them long after Sanshan flipped. For all the world, it looked at though Uonsan just hadn't been marked for "flipping."
Stranger still was the behavior of Qindaong, which is two tiles south of the L. peninsula. This tile is also defined as within the Korea spawn zone, because I hadn't got fancy enough to try excluding it. In another test game, as the Japanese I built Chunchon (just north of Seoul) to see if it would flip when Korea spawned. It did, and so did Qindaong, which China had built. No surprises so far.
When invited to take over as the Koreans I accepted, and found that my starting units had spawned outside of the Korea peninsula. Maybe that's not a surprise, since Chunchon (a Japanese city) was right next to their spawn tile. But the Korean starting units were in Qindaong. Or, rather, they were standing on the City Ruins in the square where Qindaong had been. I don't understand what that's about, but okay.
Korea was at war with China, so I slowly started moving my starting stack through Chinese territory, past Beijing and toward Manchuria. I hadn't gotten far when suddenly Qindaong reappeared: not only as a size 8 city, but as the Korean capital.
The only changes I made were to the Consts and RiseandFall files. To RaF, I only changed starting techs and starting units. To Consts, I changed starting locations and the three Core/Normal/BroaderArea settings. (I also changed "neighbor" and "biology" settings, but those seem irrelevant to what is going on.) Anyone have any ideas?
Panopticon
Utilitarian
Mxzs: post your modified files as an attachment.
fireclaw722
Imperial Guard
Some Dynamic Names to help:
Universal Suffrage/Representation:
-Federal Republic of Korea
-Korean Democratic Nation
State Property
-Democratic Republic of Korea(when running US or Rep. civic with it)
-Socialist Government of the Korean Empire(When running the PS, Despotism, or HR with it)
Hereditery Rule
-Kingdom of Korea(Plain, any other suggestions would probably be better than this)
Police State
-Great Korean Empire
-Empire of the Greater Korea
Vassal Names
-Soviet(Empire/Republic of) Korea
-or-
North Korea(Russia)
-Protectorate of the Asian Mainland(Japan)
-South Korea(America)
-Dominion of Korea(England)
-French Protectorate of North Asia(France)
-New Chinese Empire of Korea(China... I guess)
Universal Suffrage/Representation:
-Federal Republic of Korea
-Korean Democratic Nation
State Property
-Democratic Republic of Korea(when running US or Rep. civic with it)
-Socialist Government of the Korean Empire(When running the PS, Despotism, or HR with it)
Hereditery Rule
-Kingdom of Korea(Plain, any other suggestions would probably be better than this)
Police State
-Great Korean Empire
-Empire of the Greater Korea
Vassal Names
-Soviet(Empire/Republic of) Korea
-or-
North Korea(Russia)
-Protectorate of the Asian Mainland(Japan)
-South Korea(America)
-Dominion of Korea(England)
-French Protectorate of North Asia(France)
-New Chinese Empire of Korea(China... I guess)
I may yet post files, but right now I think I've got it licked.
I'm still not sure what was up with the disappearing/reappearing Qingdao, but most of the problems I had can be traced to my misunderstanding the map coordinate system. I had the y-axis flipped in my head, so that I thought tile (109, 40) would be north of tile (109, 45), when it is actually south of it. I also thought the "Exceptions" section of the Consts file listed tiles that were to be excluded from the defined CoreAreas, when I guess they are actually tiles that are added to it.
In my defense, if you saw (66, 30) defined as "TopLeft" and (70, 36) defined as "BottomRight," wouldn't you assume that the former was north(west) of the latter? And wouldn't you assume that "exceptions" meant things to be subtracted rather than added?
Well, anyway ...
So, I think I've got the spawn zones figured out now. At least, the game is behaving about as well as can be expected given everything that I throw at it. There are a few puzzling things, but they seem to be the kind of things that sometimes happen in RFC itself, IIRC. If there is an AI city next Seoul, your Settlers will get forced into a new square, and if you don't build the capital I think you don't get Workers. But the tiles I want to flip will flip, and that's a huge relief to me.
@fireclaw: I had a bunch of names made, but I lost them all in a revamp of the modification. I'll take yours under serious consideration (and thanks for them!), but I will probably not use the "north/south" names, since that is a geographical division that does not necessarily reflect civics/geopolitical structure. I am also a bit hampered by the fact that I can't quite figure out which entries go with which in civics forms in the DynamicNames file. I will probably also ask some Korean acquaintances for suggestions. I do know that I want "Tributary Chosun State" as the name for vassal-to-China.
I'm still not sure what was up with the disappearing/reappearing Qingdao, but most of the problems I had can be traced to my misunderstanding the map coordinate system. I had the y-axis flipped in my head, so that I thought tile (109, 40) would be north of tile (109, 45), when it is actually south of it. I also thought the "Exceptions" section of the Consts file listed tiles that were to be excluded from the defined CoreAreas, when I guess they are actually tiles that are added to it.
In my defense, if you saw (66, 30) defined as "TopLeft" and (70, 36) defined as "BottomRight," wouldn't you assume that the former was north(west) of the latter? And wouldn't you assume that "exceptions" meant things to be subtracted rather than added?
Well, anyway ...
So, I think I've got the spawn zones figured out now. At least, the game is behaving about as well as can be expected given everything that I throw at it. There are a few puzzling things, but they seem to be the kind of things that sometimes happen in RFC itself, IIRC. If there is an AI city next Seoul, your Settlers will get forced into a new square, and if you don't build the capital I think you don't get Workers. But the tiles I want to flip will flip, and that's a huge relief to me.
@fireclaw: I had a bunch of names made, but I lost them all in a revamp of the modification. I'll take yours under serious consideration (and thanks for them!), but I will probably not use the "north/south" names, since that is a geographical division that does not necessarily reflect civics/geopolitical structure. I am also a bit hampered by the fact that I can't quite figure out which entries go with which in civics forms in the DynamicNames file. I will probably also ask some Korean acquaintances for suggestions. I do know that I want "Tributary Chosun State" as the name for vassal-to-China.
fireclaw722
Imperial Guard
The North and South Names I kinda just threw in there because I was running out of ideas, same with the Chinese vassal name. Better one for American vassal:
American Protectornate of Korea
-or maybe even-
Korean Free-Government of America
American Protectornate of Korea
-or maybe even-
Korean Free-Government of America
Krzowwh
King
I have some suggestions for dynamic names:
Some can be changed, but this is an overall base of sorts.
Spoiler :
Some can be changed, but this is an overall base of sorts.
Oh, thanks, I really like those! In fact, I've input them just now. Only tweaked two:
Dominion of Korea: Changed to "Mandate of Korea"; don't quite see the British giving Korea "Dominion" status.
Great Joseon People's Nation: Changed to "German Korea", as being more generically Prussian than the fascist-inflected "GJPN." Unless that entry in the TXT list is specifically for vassals of a fascist Germany. (Is it?)
Now I just need to figure out how trustworthy the online translators are on giving me the French/Italian/Spanish equivalents.
For those keeping track and interested in progress, I've got the geographicl issues sorted out (knock wood) and have moved on to figuring out how to give Korea their Unique Attributes. Today I imported Chamaedrys's kobukson for use as the UU. Properties: Replaces Trireme; requires Sailing, Metalcasting, and access to Iron; Movement:2, Combat:3
In practice, the kobukson will be available earlier than it was historically, but (1) since it operated as a coastal ship (IIRC) then it makes sense as a Trireme replacement rather than a Caravel replacement; (2) three tech requirements mean it won't actually be available for awhile, and the Koreans will have to make a special effort to reach it; (3) it should not be too far off in the future, since in all my games Japan has been an irksome neighbor, and the Koreans really could use a strong sea unit to counter them.
I'm keeping the seowon as the UB, but I've changed its tech to Civil Service. Wikipedia, if it can be trusted on the score, notes that they were oriented toward prepping students for the civil service exams, so I think that would make sense. Besides, I think it would be a good idea for the UB to become available at a point in time where it could contribute to the race for Printing Press.
After that it's some more playtesting to see if the UHVs are too easy. I've noticed that China loves to build Sanshan. One way or another, the Koreans have to acquire it, because it blocks their egress into Manchuria. Either I put it in the spawn zone and force it to flip (which is what I've been doing) or I give the Koreans a big army; but either way, that will give them one city in Manchura. Their second settler will certainly go for the second city up there. That means that in a lot of games they will only have to build one more Settler. That could make both the "3 cities in Manchuria" and "Cathedral" conditions very easy.
Dominion of Korea: Changed to "Mandate of Korea"; don't quite see the British giving Korea "Dominion" status.
Great Joseon People's Nation: Changed to "German Korea", as being more generically Prussian than the fascist-inflected "GJPN." Unless that entry in the TXT list is specifically for vassals of a fascist Germany. (Is it?)
Now I just need to figure out how trustworthy the online translators are on giving me the French/Italian/Spanish equivalents.
For those keeping track and interested in progress, I've got the geographicl issues sorted out (knock wood) and have moved on to figuring out how to give Korea their Unique Attributes. Today I imported Chamaedrys's kobukson for use as the UU. Properties: Replaces Trireme; requires Sailing, Metalcasting, and access to Iron; Movement:2, Combat:3
In practice, the kobukson will be available earlier than it was historically, but (1) since it operated as a coastal ship (IIRC) then it makes sense as a Trireme replacement rather than a Caravel replacement; (2) three tech requirements mean it won't actually be available for awhile, and the Koreans will have to make a special effort to reach it; (3) it should not be too far off in the future, since in all my games Japan has been an irksome neighbor, and the Koreans really could use a strong sea unit to counter them.
I'm keeping the seowon as the UB, but I've changed its tech to Civil Service. Wikipedia, if it can be trusted on the score, notes that they were oriented toward prepping students for the civil service exams, so I think that would make sense. Besides, I think it would be a good idea for the UB to become available at a point in time where it could contribute to the race for Printing Press.
After that it's some more playtesting to see if the UHVs are too easy. I've noticed that China loves to build Sanshan. One way or another, the Koreans have to acquire it, because it blocks their egress into Manchuria. Either I put it in the spawn zone and force it to flip (which is what I've been doing) or I give the Koreans a big army; but either way, that will give them one city in Manchura. Their second settler will certainly go for the second city up there. That means that in a lot of games they will only have to build one more Settler. That could make both the "3 cities in Manchuria" and "Cathedral" conditions very easy.
Krzowwh
King
Yes, Korea isn't quite large enough.
Well, I was aware that it was fascist Germany from the other civilization tags, with reichskomissariat and reichsgau as titles.
Well, I don't see why the hwacha is being replaced, it being about as important as the geobukseon, but it was one of the leading ships of its time. It seems a little weak, but let testing answer it.
Won't that make it too early for when it was used?
I suggest not to put it in the spawn zone. Only Goguryeo held the area, which, if you want to keep this starting date, having Sanshan would be inaccurate at the start. It would be a goal, and this would make it harder to do the UHV.
I flip back in forth in my own mind about whether to put Sanshan in the spawn zone. That's because balancing is very hard; starting conditions vary wildly, depending upon (1) How obstreperous is Tokugawa? (2) How big are the contemporaneous barbarian incursions? (3) How strong is China? I had one test game where Japan DoWed on me about ten turns in; there was a massive barbarian horde pouring in from the north; and a very strong China soon built the Great Wall. Consequently, I had waves of invaders landing on my east coast and sluicing down over my northern borders. And I only had 3 Archers. Boy, did that game end fast.
OTOH, I had another game where Tokugawa was very quiescent, and China was very weak. They hadn't built Sanshan, and Beijing had just been captured by a lone barbarian Horse Archer. China collapsed shortly thereafter, and I was able to pick up Beijing and Shanghai, and build Sanshan myself, very quickly. Basically, I had something like the Jurchen Dynasty a thousand years early!
Usually, though, Sanshan has been built, and China isn't going anywhere. Sanshan blocks the way into Manchuria, so the Koreans must conquer it. That means either flippage or conquest. If flippage, the player can usually settle down to a quiet, peaceful game that (unless something bad happens--usually involving Japan) will be very hard to lose. If conquest, then the player has two angry neighbors to deal with. That opens up a whole other can of worms: Give Korea a large starting army? Give them Iron Working so they can quickly start building defensive/offensive units? But if you give them an army/advanced tech and Sanshan hasn't been built, then they are overpowered.
(Also, I should make clear that more often than not, when they build Sanshan, they build it two tiles northeast of Seoul, which really gets the cultural borders clashing and does a really solid job of boxing the Koreans in.)
That's the gameplay issue. On the historical issue: If you consider the "Koreans" in the mod to be Silla, then yeah, it's not accurate. But if you consider them to be the "Three Kingdoms," then Gogoryeo and its holdings would be included.
...
Yeah, I haven't said anything really insightful or pertinent. I'm just rehearsing aloud the things that have puzzled me in the course of testing this mod. If I can find a good host, I will probably upload what I've got so other people can test it out.
EDIT: Oh, and on the ship, I'll poll my Korean acquaintances, see what they prefer: the hwacha or the turtle ship.
I'll be traveling over the next few days, but sometime next week I will probably try uploading what I've got, for feedback. It is playable in its current form, and just a few hours ago I got the Victory conditions successfully coded.
Recent decisions on my part: (1) Kubokson beats hwacha; many of my Korean acquaintances had never even heard of the latter, but the former is hugely famous. I may even add Admiral Yi to the list of Great Generals. (2) Sanshan is out of the spawn zone, but I've given Korea a France/Spain/Germany-sized starting army: 4 Swordmen, 4 Archers, 1 Axeman. (3) UHVs are basically as described earlier: 3 cities in Manchuria by 1000; either a Confucian, Buddhist, or Taoist Cathedral by 1400; first to discover Printing Press.
Right now the only big question mark is the one hanging over the Unique Power. I've left the Mayan "Power of Astronomy" in play, since it kinda-sorta can apply to Korea. I do like the idea earlier of "Techs discovered by China cost only 50%," but coding something like that is entirely beyond my power, I think. Any kind souls think they can provide the code for such a UP?
Recent decisions on my part: (1) Kubokson beats hwacha; many of my Korean acquaintances had never even heard of the latter, but the former is hugely famous. I may even add Admiral Yi to the list of Great Generals. (2) Sanshan is out of the spawn zone, but I've given Korea a France/Spain/Germany-sized starting army: 4 Swordmen, 4 Archers, 1 Axeman. (3) UHVs are basically as described earlier: 3 cities in Manchuria by 1000; either a Confucian, Buddhist, or Taoist Cathedral by 1400; first to discover Printing Press.
Right now the only big question mark is the one hanging over the Unique Power. I've left the Mayan "Power of Astronomy" in play, since it kinda-sorta can apply to Korea. I do like the idea earlier of "Techs discovered by China cost only 50%," but coding something like that is entirely beyond my power, I think. Any kind souls think they can provide the code for such a UP?
I can scarecely believe it myself, but here it is: Rhye's and Fall of Civilization: Korea Variant for Beyond the Sword. I hope I got the download right; I'm still a little punchy from a trans-Pacific flight.
http://www.filefactory.com/file/a0b34cb/n/RFC_Korea_rar
So, yada yada yada download and unzip into your BTS Mod folder. Launch Civ4:BTS; select "Advanced -> Load a Mod -> RFC Korea." After it loads, select "Single Player -> Play a Scenario -> RFC Korea." The scenario is a modified version of the 3000BC Locked scenario; all civilizations are playable. The Koreans replace the Maya, so they are the last to load.
Details:
Civilisation: The Koreans
Leader:: Wang Kon
Starting Turn/Year: Turn 144 / 65 AD
Unique Power: The Power of Astronomy (All techs cost 40% less until the end of the Middle Ages)
Unique Building: Seowon (Available with Civil Service; replaces University; research in city +35%)
Unique Unit: Kubokson (Requires Sailing, Metal Casting, access to Iron; replaces Trireme; movement =3, strength = 3)
Unique Historical Victory Conditions:
* Control three cities in Manchuria [i.e., by building or conquest] by 1000 AD (See image below for boundaries)
* Build a Buddhist Stupa, Taoist Pagoda, or Confucian Academy by 1400 AD
* Be the first to discover Printing Press
Core Korean areas: The Korean peninsula and a few tiles to the northeast. Sanshan will not flip.
Basic starting army: 4 Archers; 4 Swordmen; 1 Axemen; 2 Settlers; 3 Workers (spawn two turns in). Additional units may accrue depending upon what was in the area when you spawned.
My notes:
* I can't guarantee that there will be no Python exceptions, but the modmod runs fine on my computer at least. Post an alert if there are serious problems, please, though I'll probably be switched if I can figure them out.
* Whether the UHV is easy or impossible seems to depend upon the luck of the starting situation. In one Monarch-level game I won by 1420, thanks to quiescent neighbors. In another, I had to fight wars with both Japan and China, but still managed the UHV by 1450. And in a third game, China waited ten turns after I spawned, then declared war and rolled in a massive Stack containing multiply-promoted catapults, swordmen, and axemen; I was quickly exterminated. Overall, I'd say that the Korean situation is a lot like the Egyptian situation: the UHV game is short and pretty easy if you know what you're doing, but their long-term survival can be tricky.
* I may yet modify/strengthen the Kubokson unit. Right now it is basically a coastal-only Caravel, which means it has a 75% chance against any Trireme with which it has matching promotions. But Japan likes researching Optics quickly, so to give the Korean unit a longer shelf life I'm open to giving it an extra strength point. Please forgive the fact that it is available earlier than is historically accurate, as it needs to be available this early if it is to meaningfully useful in deterring/fighting Japanese incursions.
http://www.filefactory.com/file/a0b34cb/n/RFC_Korea_rar
So, yada yada yada download and unzip into your BTS Mod folder. Launch Civ4:BTS; select "Advanced -> Load a Mod -> RFC Korea." After it loads, select "Single Player -> Play a Scenario -> RFC Korea." The scenario is a modified version of the 3000BC Locked scenario; all civilizations are playable. The Koreans replace the Maya, so they are the last to load.
Details:
Civilisation: The Koreans
Leader:: Wang Kon
Starting Turn/Year: Turn 144 / 65 AD
Unique Power: The Power of Astronomy (All techs cost 40% less until the end of the Middle Ages)
Unique Building: Seowon (Available with Civil Service; replaces University; research in city +35%)
Unique Unit: Kubokson (Requires Sailing, Metal Casting, access to Iron; replaces Trireme; movement =3, strength = 3)
Unique Historical Victory Conditions:
* Control three cities in Manchuria [i.e., by building or conquest] by 1000 AD (See image below for boundaries)
* Build a Buddhist Stupa, Taoist Pagoda, or Confucian Academy by 1400 AD
* Be the first to discover Printing Press
Core Korean areas: The Korean peninsula and a few tiles to the northeast. Sanshan will not flip.
Basic starting army: 4 Archers; 4 Swordmen; 1 Axemen; 2 Settlers; 3 Workers (spawn two turns in). Additional units may accrue depending upon what was in the area when you spawned.
My notes:
* I can't guarantee that there will be no Python exceptions, but the modmod runs fine on my computer at least. Post an alert if there are serious problems, please, though I'll probably be switched if I can figure them out.
* Whether the UHV is easy or impossible seems to depend upon the luck of the starting situation. In one Monarch-level game I won by 1420, thanks to quiescent neighbors. In another, I had to fight wars with both Japan and China, but still managed the UHV by 1450. And in a third game, China waited ten turns after I spawned, then declared war and rolled in a massive Stack containing multiply-promoted catapults, swordmen, and axemen; I was quickly exterminated. Overall, I'd say that the Korean situation is a lot like the Egyptian situation: the UHV game is short and pretty easy if you know what you're doing, but their long-term survival can be tricky.
* I may yet modify/strengthen the Kubokson unit. Right now it is basically a coastal-only Caravel, which means it has a 75% chance against any Trireme with which it has matching promotions. But Japan likes researching Optics quickly, so to give the Korean unit a longer shelf life I'm open to giving it an extra strength point. Please forgive the fact that it is available earlier than is historically accurate, as it needs to be available this early if it is to meaningfully useful in deterring/fighting Japanese incursions.
Attachments
fireclaw722
Imperial Guard
Looks great I'm Downloading it now.
fireclaw722
Imperial Guard
It works great and is awesome.AnotherPacifist
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2007
- Messages
- 4,878
DLing now. If it works, maybe we can combine it with the Byzantines and maybe somebody can do the Zulus in place of Ethiopia, and do an alternate world of RFC!
I might also add that this makes China and Japan a completely different game.
I might also add that this makes China and Japan a completely different game.
DLing now. If it works, maybe we can combine it with the Byzantines and maybe somebody can do the Zulus in place of Ethiopia, and do an alternate world of RFC!
I might also add that this makes China and Japan a completely different game.
Alternate RFC? Oh, that sounds like fun. Zeppelins, at least, would make much more sense on an alternate Earth.
I assume nothing bad happens if you just change the spawn date. I think an alternate RFC should include Atlantis, and it would be awkward to have to use one of the starting civs for them ...
AnotherPacifist
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2007
- Messages
- 4,878
This is really too easy. Of course in my game I had the following lucky things happening to me:
1. China did not build Great Wall, and collapsed under the weight of the barbs. Instead of DOWing on me, he DOW'd on Japan. Hangzhou flipped to me.
2. I built Shenyang, and just as I was about to spread Taoism to it (never had state religion BTW), out of NOWHERE Christianity (AP religion) spread to me, so I had contact with the other AP civs. Which means I could exchange aesthetics/literature/music for a lot of the techs that I was missing. Bulbed philosophy which got me feudalism and machinery. I only researched paper and PP after that. (was even able to trade for engineering and guilds near the end with Ethiopia my buddy)
3. Sanshan was never built by China (which would have crimped my coastal city)
1. China did not build Great Wall, and collapsed under the weight of the barbs. Instead of DOWing on me, he DOW'd on Japan. Hangzhou flipped to me.
2. I built Shenyang, and just as I was about to spread Taoism to it (never had state religion BTW), out of NOWHERE Christianity (AP religion) spread to me, so I had contact with the other AP civs. Which means I could exchange aesthetics/literature/music for a lot of the techs that I was missing. Bulbed philosophy which got me feudalism and machinery. I only researched paper and PP after that. (was even able to trade for engineering and guilds near the end with Ethiopia my buddy)
3. Sanshan was never built by China (which would have crimped my coastal city)
