ALC Game 29: France/De Gaulle

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Everyone who was proud of me for whipping is now probably very displeased. Can you explain to me what I should have done here? Other than build a boat or two, which I know I should have done. How do you handle that much whip anger?

1. Why are you stagnating a city below happy cap?
2. The city will lose 1 whip anger in 3 turns, meaning you can grow it back to size 6 already
3. Grow the city into unhappiness and then whip workers/settlers. Angry citizens do not consume food when you are building a worker/settler (old bug).
4. Always find a workaround to wasting food rather than lowering your head.
5. You're in Representation I assume, if the city becomes one of your 6 largest, it gets another +3 happy.
6. 23 turns of whip anger is very small
 
So, two cities and four wonders added to the empire. Not a bad tally at all, I like it.

Now that you have GLH and ToA it makes sense to get harbors set up and really make good use of those wonders. I would add that in to my tech plan somewhere after Construction. Of course you can be aiming at Literature for the GL as well, that will be a snap to build and makes good use of the Pyramids. It is important to make good use of the wonders once they have been built. I can build the Pyramids and then forget to change civics, not optimal.

What's the plan for Mao, take him out soon or continue trying to befriend him for trade value? I see in a northern screenshot that Toku is moving down your direction, I guess he's closer than Ragnar. Perhaps it is possible to keep Mao happy and untreatening while you go after Toku and the Barbs, with Ragnar's help if needed. That or hold off the Northern Ugliness in a chokepoint city while dealing with Mao.

You are about to start building WE's and Cat's, but where are they going to go, north or south? I notice Mao has Axe's and Swords so there is metal down there, that would be useful to have. Of course you don't have IW yet so that would delay making use of iron anyway. My first preference would be to head north first while the land grab is still going on but I'm interested to hear what others think.

Are you going to be planning your GP production and use or just let them pop when they pop and figure out at that point what to do with them? With that range of wonders it might be hard to dictate which one appears next.
 
I opened the save this time.

  • You did not revolt to Representation!
  • If you absolutely insist on not using the floodplains in Orleans, then loan one to Paris.
  • Wonders are nice and all but look at the map, what would you like to have more of right now and what does that mean?
  • Binary research?
  • You can get Toku to Pleased easily with a junk city gift.
  • Keep your remaining forests for Catapults/War Elephants because it doesn't look as if you can expand much more otherwise.
 
3. Grow the city into unhappiness and then whip workers/settlers. Angry citizens do not consume food when you are building a worker/settler (old bug).

Pretty sure it's not a bug; the function that calculates how much food the city requires has a parameter specifically to check for the case of not counting angry people:

Code:
int CvCity::foodConsumption([B]bool bNoAngry[/B], int iExtra) const
{
	return ((((getPopulation() + iExtra) - ((bNoAngry) ? angryPopulation(iExtra) : 0)) * GC.getFOOD_CONSUMPTION_PER_POPULATION()) - healthRate(bNoAngry, iExtra));
}

Incidentally, looks like angry citizens don't contribute to unhealthiness calculations either when building settlers/workers.

IIRC, it was added in one of the early patches to the original Civ4.

Definitely worth knowing about anyway.
 
well getting ToA is not bad on itself, but you could get much more if you let it 1T from completion, build some another things and start ToA in another hammer city.
In this way I got the other day something like 600g for failing wonder, you could get much more with ind+marble (I had only marble).
Tough to see for me how the real output of the wonder pays this amount of gold back.

It's my new favorite trick I saw in kossin's Let's play Hatty and some other games. Btw I saw him doing it with National Epic/Heroic Epic too.

That's a good idea. I probably would have been better off doing that. I'm defending all of my wonder builds except the ToA. It wasn't really that smart a move. I should have been building troops, boats, or settlers instead.

1. Why are you stagnating a city below happy cap?
2. The city will lose 1 whip anger in 3 turns, meaning you can grow it back to size 6 already
3. Grow the city into unhappiness and then whip workers/settlers. Angry citizens do not consume food when you are building a worker/settler (old bug).
4. Always find a workaround to wasting food rather than lowering your head.
5. You're in Representation I assume, if the city becomes one of your 6 largest, it gets another +3 happy.
6. 23 turns of whip anger is very small

1. Cuz I'm dumb. I think my logic was that I didn't want to grow, and this way I could maximize commerce and hammers. But I should have just grown and then increased my maximum. Apologies.
2. Yep, I see that now.
3. Yeah, I saw Rusten pointing that out in his recent game. I guess I thought I didn't need any settlers and more workers were overkill. These are obviously both incorrect statements. I'm going to need workers to improve the land I get in our war. And a settler could have been used to make Toku a present.
4. Okay. Do you ever use the halt growth button in the city screen?
5. Nope, you'll learn that by your next post though.
6. Sigh, alright. I apparently don't whip enough.

So, two cities and four wonders added to the empire. Not a bad tally at all, I like it.

Thanks Mec. I like it too.

Now that you have GLH and ToA it makes sense to get harbors set up and really make good use of those wonders. I would add that in to my tech plan somewhere after Construction. Of course you can be aiming at Literature for the GL as well, that will be a snap to build and makes good use of the Pyramids.

Yeah, there's so much to do I'm not sure how soon I'll get compass. But when I do, harbors will be a definite build.

It is important to make good use of the wonders once they have been built. I can build the Pyramids and then forget to change civics, not optimal.

I didn't forget to switch. I was in the middle of a few wonder builds when I completed the Pyramids and I wanted to finish them all up. The revolt was scaring me away from switching right away. I don't have very many specialists up and running and I had happy room, so I thought I could wait a few turns to switch into Representation. It probably would have been better to switch right away, but it's easier to say that now that I have all the wonders built.

What's the plan for Mao, take him out soon or continue trying to befriend him for trade value? I see in a northern screenshot that Toku is moving down your direction, I guess he's closer than Ragnar. Perhaps it is possible to keep Mao happy and untreatening while you go after Toku and the Barbs, with Ragnar's help if needed. That or hold off the Northern Ugliness in a chokepoint city while dealing with Mao.

I don't think it's going to be possible to placate Mao. He's also way closer to me and way harder to defend against should he declare war than Toku is. I'm going to take Mao out first and then declare on Toku at some point in the future.


You are about to start building WE's and Cat's, but where are they going to go, north or south? I notice Mao has Axe's and Swords so there is metal down there, that would be useful to have. Of course you don't have IW yet so that would delay making use of iron anyway. My first preference would be to head north first while the land grab is still going on but I'm interested to hear what others think.

I'm not going to bother with the land grab. Unless I'm convinced that I should. I like a consolidated empire and that giant pink border along mine is weirding me out. And a random city up in the middle of our continent would be under all sorts of pressure from Toku. And, should he declare, it would be a pain to defend.

Are you going to be planning your GP production and use or just let them pop when they pop and figure out at that point what to do with them? With that range of wonders it might be hard to dictate which one appears next.

I am planning on settling all of them, in the obsolete style. I hope to get a scientist at some point to build an Academy with (in my capital). If I should get another scientist while I'm on the lib path I might keep him for education. But I'm not going to plan for any specific specialists after the first scientist.

  1. You did not revolt to Representation!
  2. If you absolutely insist on not using the floodplains in Orleans, then loan one to Paris.
  3. Wonders are nice and all but look at the map, what would you like to have more of right now and what does that mean?
  4. Binary research?
  5. You can get Toku to Pleased easily with a junk city gift.
  6. Keep your remaining forests for Catapults/War Elephants because it doesn't look as if you can expand much more otherwise.

  1. I gave my attempt at a rational above. Not a very good one I'm afraid. A revolution is on the list for the beginning of the next turnset.
  2. I'll give them back to Orleans. I just forgot about the possibility of giving it to Paris.
  3. I'd like more wonders, duh. But yeah, war is on the horizon. For some land gain. There will probably be several wars in this game as opposed to one big use a bunch of cavalry to take over the world kind of things.
  4. I was thinking about it. I probably should have been doing it already due to the rounding error. But my plan was to keep it as high as I could until I finished construction and HBR. Then turn it off while I built libraries everywhere, then binary it after that. My understanding was that binary research was not as valuable where there are no multipliers in place for either gold or beakers. Am I missing something?
  5. I'll see if I can fit that in somewhere.
  6. I was planning on doing just that.
 
Okay. Do you ever use the halt growth button in the city screen?

Sometimes. But what I like to do is slow or stall growth in a city - at it's happy cap - by switching tiles around so that the city is more productive at that size. Why stall growth and work...say..a corn or farm, when you can move that citizen to a mine or scientist slot. OR I let the city grow into unhappiness for the extra production when whipping. It seems like you kinda understand this concept based on what you did with Orleans. However, you stall growth before reaching the happy cap and not factoring in when the whip anger goes away.
 
I never use the halt growth button. Build a worker, run specialists or something. There are some examples where you'll stop working a food tile for 1 or 2 turns (finish a build or tech 1 turn faster etc.) but it's pretty rare.
 
I'm defending all of my wonder builds except the ToA.

You shouldn't.
You are boxed in south and now north by chinese with 4 cities, no metals and 15/20 turns away from phantapults without mean of accelerating research (no scientists, no building science since no alpha, no building wealth...).

Some immediate stuff to do:

forget that forge (unless you want an amazing health cap of... 4!) in orleans and start a lib. switch micro (always work fps and the food tiles, always, always , always, not coast, not junk, food!!!!! as said by many if you struggle with happy cap, whip, specialists, mines, HR -overflows into warrior do wonders for this-, overlapping are your friends)
lib in ToA city as well. Work food, whip -> regrow -> assign scientists. slow build rax then waiting for the desired techs.
Try to get more resources (maybe you can sell ivory for two health).

Is there some oversea land that you can peacefully settle? If so, the situation is still ok.

Good luck! :)

NB: when u have the great lighthouse, and u want to leverage it, DO NOT BUILD THE ToA!!! build settlers... or troops to conquier coastal barb cities :mischief:

edit about binary research: your explanation for not doing it is ... You will get to elephants faster with it! (slider at 60 or 70 % just create leaks to civ IV rounding... you won't care once you get a couple hundred beakers a turn, but now is the time to do it :)) What you are missing is that one beaker wasted over 20 is more important than 20 over 400 (random figures, but you get the idea... early on, everything matters)
 
forget that forge (unless you want an amazing health cap of... 4!) in orleans and start a lib.

Done. I'm not quite sure why I was building a forge in the first place. I suppose I have a misplaced obsession with them.

switch micro (always work fps and the food tiles, always, always , always, not coast, not junk, food!!!!! as said by many if you struggle with happy cap, whip, specialists, mines, HR -overflows into warrior do wonders for this-, overlapping are your friends)

Alright. Between you and Kossin I think I'm finally getting it drilled in. I did my best in the next turnset to always work food.

Try to get more resources (maybe you can sell ivory for two health).

I was trying to do this. The problem at the end of the last turnset was that Ragnar was not connected to the trade network, Tokugawa wouldn't open borders, and Mao had nothing to offer.

Is there some oversea land that you can peacefully settle? If so, the situation is still ok.

You'll see, ;).

NB: when u have the great lighthouse, and u want to leverage it, DO NOT BUILD THE ToA!!! build settlers... or troops to conquer coastal barb cities :mischief:

Interesting. I've never thought of this. Thanks for the heads up.
 
Round 4: 400 BC to 540 AD (38 turns)

The round started with some switches mandated by my overseers. I switched production to libraries for the ability to run scientist specialists and I revolted into Representation. Representation powered specialists are super awesome and I would try to run engineers and scientists when practical in my cities.

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I also got a lot of use out of Slavery this round whipping pretty much all the time. I don't think I've ever used it to it's full potential before, but man is it powerful.

I quickly met this guy who we can add to our list of dangerous neighbors.

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I'm not too worried about him militarily just because he's so far away. It's also worth noting that I met him with a scout which means he's most likely on our landmass. Also worth noting is his religious belief, he's Buddhist ... and he didn't found it. This means that the other two AIs in this game must be nearby. It's possible that one AI founded both Hinduism and Buddhism, but even so, we're definitely not isolated. While I'm not worried about Huayna militarily, he is definitely a force to win the game. Luckily I've been denying him of his usual wonders, :cool:.

Here's a quick view of our fledgling empire preparing for war.

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You'll notice I'm building barracks instead of catapults. I figured the +3 experience means that our troops only have to win 1 battle to get two promotions (since we're charismatic).

QUESTION 1: Should I have been building barracks or catapults?

I had built a workboat in Guangzhou and had sent it northwest where I saw Mao's galley hanging out before. He found this.

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That's a pretty decent city as it has fish and claims STONE. Score. I think I'll take it. You'll also notice that Mao had founded Confucianism and it had spread to my lands. I thought for a long time about converting. The benefits as I saw them were the obvious benefits of religion, namely the civic, Organized Religion, but also the diplomatic benefits. Mao was already at pleased and a shared religion would make it very likely that we got to Friendly. This would mean I could leave him alone back there and go take out Tokugawa. On the other hand, I wanted to declare war on Mao anyway for reasons previously discussed. Also, I'm scared of revolt and didn't have Monotheism.

QUESTION 2: Should I have joined Mao in Confucianism?

Speaking of religious things, I got my second Great Person.

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Now this was a slightly more interesting decision than the last Prophet. I thought about keeping him to build the Confucian shrine with. But Confucianism was quite small and the Great Prophet would give me an immediate 5:commerce:, 3:science:, and 2:hammers:. I decided to settle him.

QUESTION 3: Should I have settled him or saved him?

My tech path had been going along as planned with Construction followed by Horseback Riding. I decided to stay on the war tech path a little longer so I researched Iron Working. Do I have iron?

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Yes indeed. This was good since it allowed me the ability to build (upgrade some warriors) to axemen and spearmen. Also, it gave Lyons its third excellent tile to work.

The war buildup continued as I whipped, chopped, and built catapults and elephants. I finished researching Alphabet and started on

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Aesthetics. My logic here was that I wanted to get back to my wonder building and Aesthetics is good peaceful trade bait for later. I was a bit torn since a pretty good argument could have been made for any of the techs. I'm sure most of you would have picked something else given all the judgment I've been under for building so many wonders.

QUESTION 4: What would you have researched and why?

Here's Orleans in an example of what I was trying to do everywhere. Namely work food tiles and whip out an army.

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Notice that I'm running three specialists instead of the hills. My pattern for many of my cities was to work a few specialists, whip them away, grow the city back, then whip away the specialists again. I'm sure I was not doing so at deity-level efficiency. Specifically I was wondering about the grassland hill.

QUESTION 5: Should I be working the grassland hill instead of running a specialist?

I was just about to declare war at this point. But I always like to see what a leader will give me when he thinks we're still friends.

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I didn't see any harm in giving him any of those techs and I wanted Calender to improve the spice (which I ended up forgetting to do, :mad:), but also for a certain wonder I liked the idea of building, :mischief:. Monarchy's a useful tech too and not one I was ever planning on researching myself. So in an attempt to keep my future WFYABTA limits down with other civs I took it from Mao.

QUESTION 6: Is this logic right? Anyone care to explain the workings of WFYABTA with me?

Anyway, shall we let slip the elephants of war?

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The military strategy was pretty straightforward. Catapults are so useless at bombarding, I find it way more effective to sacrifice a few. I promote the first couple to barrage and let them fly. Then when the odds improve to about 20%, I promote instead to city raider and hit the city with the rest of the catapults until the odds on an elephant are about 85%, and then I go in with Elephants. If you were wondering, there is no math at all determining if that is optimal, but it sounds alright to me.

And the Confucian holy city is mine.

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I'm thinking I'll probably put the Heroic Epic in Shanghai as it has a lot of hills and a lot of food to feed those hills.

The war strategy was the same with the capital.

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For some reason I turned off the resource bubbles. Beijing's got two wet corn to its west, pigs to its north, and iron to its east.

I completely forgot about my trading possibilities so I went and paid a visit to Huayna who had some pretty good stuff to offer.

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I'll take happiness and health any day. Ragnar is pissed and Toku won't trade, so this is what I get in terms of trades.

Back at home, I was pretty confident in my military machine, so I took a quick break to build a wonder. It had been 32 turns since I'd completed my last one and I was starting to feel the effects of withdrawal.

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After Beijing was mine, I sent most of my force back north to capture the northern half of the Chinese empire. I sent a small contingent south to capture Nanjing.

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Given that Nanjing translates to "southern capital city" it looks like Mao knew what he was doing. (For those of you who are curious, Beijing does indeed mean "northern capital city".) Anyway, it's mine now, but I doubt if I'll be building Versailles or the Forbidden Palace there. It's unfortunate that Beijing is so close to my capital, otherwise I could have built the Forbidden Palace there.

But I digress. At RRR's recommendation I sent out a settling party to the island north of Mao's.

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Complete with the city was an archer, a worker, and two workboats. Unfortunately, my stupidity caused one of the workboats to be destroyed by a Chinese Galley, sigh. You'll notice that Mao has a city right above mine. He settled it first, and other than the horses it's built on, it's absolutely terrible. I'm not quite sure what he was thinking.

Back on the war front (although a different front this time), my army was ready for the northern campaign.

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I suicided the catapult into the city and then took it with minimal losses.

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Olmec has access to bananas and cows which gives me two new health resources. It's also an important city because of its access to the mainland of the continent. So all in all I'm pleased to have it.

Over on the island I had a small force trying to get me access to stone.

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I settled the army on the wrong side of the river, but did so purposefully. It would have taken another turn to land west of the city and I wanted to capture that city. This was probably an unwise move. Also note that the city has four units: two archers, one great general, and one trireme. A few second later, I lost an elephant at 91% odds and now the last remaining archer was going to get an attached great general and I wouldn't be able to take the city with just my one weakened elephant... Not to worry, the AI is incredibly unintelligent.

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And now I have a free great general in a city that will be an excellent navy pump. I also won my own great general a few turns ago, but haven't done anything with him yet.

After aesthetics I researched literature and currently researching Currency. And before I forget, let me show you what my core was doing while I was taking those last two Chinese cities.

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And the Parthenon is nearing completion in Orleans.

I'll post a state of the world tonight. In the meantime answer any of the questions you'd like to and take a look around the save.
 
State of the World, 540 AD

Our Cities

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The Known World


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Mao's Remaining

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And he has another city on the main continent, but I can't see what's in it.

Our Tired Army


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Techs

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Some Info

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The questions come naturally from the pictures... Yeah I'm lazy, deal with it.

I look forward to your comments.
 
That was a splendid little war. It looks like you have no friends; is the diplomatic situation salvageable or are you just going to try to conquer the continent?
 
Keep the blood flowing! build moar elephants and kill toku!

I would expect nothing less from you Gwynnja. Tokugawa looks to be pretty far behind. So I think that some more cataphunts might be a good idea to, if not finish him, set him back pretty significantly.

That was a splendid little war. It looks like you have no friends; is the diplomatic situation salvageable or are you just going to try to conquer the continent?

Thank you. I'm pretty sure it's salvageable if I wanted to salvage it. But I like the idea of winning a true domination victory, so I don't see much point in salvaging it.
 
Great job on the last update and war. The only question I have is why build the Statue of Zeus?

Something I like to do with Napoleon is build a nice army of Knights or Cuirassiers with Musketeers. Could be the quick deathblow you're looking for over your opponents on the continent.
 
interesting that you attacked +- the same turn I did in my shadow (except I got dowed by mao T120)

Do you plan to wipe Mao completely out (the north island city will seriously delay your attack on toku)?

btw in my shadow I went for toku with phantpults war too, didn't went that great, so I hope you do better.
 
Great war Benginal. GOod choices. I would propose to wipe out Mao completely. I hate the "we yearn for our motherland" in later stages of the game.

I wouldn't have settled the GP though seeing that in the long run he will give you more money and gives you a good wall street city. Right now it would already be +3 gold per turn and this will increase further off setting the beaker and hammer advantage for a few turns. Oh well, good chance that you will still pop one.

BTW WONDER MADNESS!!!! Love the fact that 3 cities are building wonders and it looks like you will get them too. Currency is a must now with only +19 at 0% research. I would really go for that one asap. Huayna is a good target for metal casting after a few turns so you won't loose the colossus.
 
:huh::think::dunno::thumbsdown::dubious::confused:

That's at least 4 techs down the road for musketeers (feudalism, machinery, guilds, and gunpowder) and 7 more for cuirassiers (music, code of laws, civil service, meditation, philosophy, nationalism, military tradition.) Maybe for Inca, but not Toku.

At this point there are 6 workers to 10 cities and the economy needs some attention. It's also normal speed. By the time the Chinese are finished off and consolidation has taken place, these techs can be researched or within striking distance. I wouldn't declare on Tokugawa now, he (surprisingly) is well liked by everyone else.
 
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