I won't comment on all the other things you've said, just this line, because imho it's the crucial part here. Given your strategy makes sense on certain settings, how do you know that your approach is superior? Is there _ANY_ way to know that your strategy will be superior, or at least just as good, as the classic BW approach? Given you have random map settings whereever possible.
Delayed bronze working #2: Deity isolated
- Thread starter Brennus.Quigley
- Start date
I won't comment on all the other things you've said, just this line, because imho it's the crucial part here. Given your strategy makes sense on certain settings, how do you know that your approach is superior? Is there _ANY_ way to know that your strategy will be superior, or at least just as good, as the classic BW approach? Given you have random map settings whereever possible.
Jack Funk
Chieftain
I am confused about a few things:
1. You initially said that this was viable for 30% of maps. Then 6%? So far, we have one map (rolled with arid/high, not random) that you have shown that it works on. So, what is it? 30%, 6%, some other %?
2. You admit that, in this case, you had success on a replay. After you knew the map. How does one determine, without knowing the map, that this is a viable strategy? You can only reveal so much of the map (especially on higher levels and starting with a warrior) before you have to make the decision to go with this or not. How much of the map do you reveal? What are the criteria for selecting this strategy? Is isolation necessary? No trees? No food resources?
3. Even if it you determine that it is viable, how do you determine that it is preferable? Again, without knowing the map in advance.
All in all, it has been mildly entertaining watching you take on the establishment with courtesy (albeit, passive/aggressive courtesy at times), but I just don't see the utility of this approach. Even saying it is a niche strategy is being generous.
1. You initially said that this was viable for 30% of maps. Then 6%? So far, we have one map (rolled with arid/high, not random) that you have shown that it works on. So, what is it? 30%, 6%, some other %?
2. You admit that, in this case, you had success on a replay. After you knew the map. How does one determine, without knowing the map, that this is a viable strategy? You can only reveal so much of the map (especially on higher levels and starting with a warrior) before you have to make the decision to go with this or not. How much of the map do you reveal? What are the criteria for selecting this strategy? Is isolation necessary? No trees? No food resources?
3. Even if it you determine that it is viable, how do you determine that it is preferable? Again, without knowing the map in advance.
All in all, it has been mildly entertaining watching you take on the establishment with courtesy (albeit, passive/aggressive courtesy at times), but I just don't see the utility of this approach. Even saying it is a niche strategy is being generous.
Brennus.Quigley
Warlord
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I never said 6%. Someone said I said 6% and I didn't correct them. I did guess 30% a while back, but it was just a guess. I do see a lot of them even when I'm not looking for them. So all I'm prepared to say a "decent minority" of them. Someone suggested I use a mapfinder application to figure it out, but I'm mac only over here and not sure if I could specify the conditions in such specific terms anyway (i.e. there's so many variables at play).
Isolation is not necessary. No trees are not necessary. No food resources are not necessary. Basically 1) there needs to be not too many forests that you want to chop in the short term and start working the tile underneath it; 2) a non-slavery solution to the happy cap in the works (i.e. you can continually raise it and grow, or effectively work all your high yield food resources without going over); 3) there is no reason to whip up a military in the short term; 4) no reason to specifically want axemen or caravels or any other unit/building on the metals line during the time that you will be avoiding it; and 5) you find relative value in one of the alternative bulbs that are opened up. I may play differently than many in that it is not my default approach to tech Bronze Working immediately, so it is not a decision that is forced in the first few opening moves. I check out the local area and then make an assessment. I need a strategic reason to go Bronze Working.
Just analyze the situation to the best of my abilities and make a calculated decision about what the best strategic approach is. I do like to get into mid-tier techs early and do not aim to collect all the low level techs. I choose the tech path that I feel I can best leverage given the map and pursue that.
Glad you have found it mildly entertaining. People sure are resistant, and they sure enjoy moving the line further. The latest dismissing argument of "only two maps" or "only arid" is predictable. The argument of "no Hall of Fame" is humorous.
UnforcedError
Settler
Jack Funk
Chieftain
People get set in their ways. It is often like this with online forums (I've been online since the BBS days). You have some respected regulars who know their stuff and infer prestige from their standing on a board. When someone does not agree with/validate them, they get cranky. Fortunately here, they are in the minority. There are a lot of open minded regulars too.
Dirk1302
Deity
I played this to liberalism with BW and got there around 1050 AD. I knew about isolated and the goal on this map so i also wanted to have a religion. However a gambit for Buddhism without myst is a bit much imo.
I went myst->poly->masonry->mono, missed hindu by a mile (would have got buddhism btw) but managed judaism. Still a gambit but not as big as buddishm. Things were slow from there on, missed Parthenon, built GL (shouldn't have done that maybe). Got Tao with a bulb and managed to get to lib first trading for the missing stuff like MC/compass with Han.
I'm not going to play it further, if no one declares on me and no one launches anything from here i think i can manage cultural victory around the same time as Brennus did. I have 2 religions instead of one (so i can build 2 extra cathedrals) but no Parthenon, guess that evens out more or less.
Personally i don't believe in the no BW gambit, even isolated i was able to trade for the prereqs for the lib bulb and that's always the case in my experience. Going buddhism and doing that oracle gambit will not work most of the time, getting aest that early helped a lot (Parthenon).
Then again i whipped quite a bit of stuff, Brennus must have played well to get all the infra up without it
, don't think it has to do with delaying BW though 
.
I went myst->poly->masonry->mono, missed hindu by a mile (would have got buddhism btw) but managed judaism. Still a gambit but not as big as buddishm. Things were slow from there on, missed Parthenon, built GL (shouldn't have done that maybe). Got Tao with a bulb and managed to get to lib first trading for the missing stuff like MC/compass with Han.
I'm not going to play it further, if no one declares on me and no one launches anything from here i think i can manage cultural victory around the same time as Brennus did. I have 2 religions instead of one (so i can build 2 extra cathedrals) but no Parthenon, guess that evens out more or less.
Personally i don't believe in the no BW gambit, even isolated i was able to trade for the prereqs for the lib bulb and that's always the case in my experience. Going buddhism and doing that oracle gambit will not work most of the time, getting aest that early helped a lot (Parthenon).
Then again i whipped quite a bit of stuff, Brennus must have played well to get all the infra up without it
, don't think it has to do with delaying BW though .Brennus.Quigley
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2011
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- 168
I played this to liberalism with BW and got there around 1050 AD. I knew about isolated and the goal on this map so i also wanted to have a religion. However a gambit for Buddhism without myst is a bit much imo.
I went myst->poly->masonry->mono, missed hindu by a mile (would have got buddhism btw) but managed judaism. Still a gambit but not as big as buddishm. Things were slow from there on, missed Parthenon, built GL (shouldn't have done that maybe). Got Tao with a bulb and managed to get to lib first trading for the missing stuff like MC/compass with Han.
I'm not going to play it further, if no one declares on me and no one launches anything from here i think i can manage cultural victory around the same time as Brennus did. I have 2 religions instead of one (so i can build 2 extra cathedrals) but no Parthenon, guess that evens out more or less.
Personally i don't believe in the no BW gambit, even isolated i was able to trade for the prereqs for the lib bulb and that's always the case in my experience. Going buddhism and doing that oracle gambit will not work most of the time, getting aest that early helped a lot (Parthenon).
Then again i whipped quite a bit of stuff, Brennus must have played well to get all the infra up without it
Come on. Play it to the end. You advanced the AI with your extra trading. You also may have angered some AIs by trading with their enemy. You might very well pull out a win, but we are not in the same position.
EDIT: And then please post some screenshots of your victory screen and the save. Thanks.
EDIT: And there's the whole question of your cultural level now and going forward. Based simply on your post, we have no way of knowing the difference. I appreciate you playing, but would like to see you actually win before claiming that you have.
Dirk1302
Deity
I didn't say i have won it 
. I estimated i would win it somewhere in the 20th century if nothing bad happens.
. I estimated i would win it somewhere in the 20th century if nothing bad happens.Brennus.Quigley
Warlord
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- 168
I didn't say i have won it
Great. I would like to see that estimation become a reality. Delivering a comparable early-Bronze Working victory would be a significant contribution to the thread.
Brennus.Quigley
Warlord
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- Dec 14, 2011
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- 168
My strategy was to delay BW specifically for the Lib bulb. However, I am interested in seeing this map being played with any effective strategy. You could make BW your first tech if you want.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
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- 7,920
I didn't say i have won it
What's point of reporting on an unfinished game, if you not certain of victory and all other posters agree with your assessment of assured victory? Furthermore, you are an experienced player; you should have to win significantly earlier to 'prove' your conjecture versus a less experienced player.
What you have reported so far doesn't do anything to contradict or support the OP's strategy of avoiding Bronze Working until 1st to Liberalism is assured.
Sun Tzu Wu
vranasm
Deity
I can't obviously talk for Dirk, but to me it seems like the point was that he got to Liberalism couple of turns earlier then OP even when teching BW...
it tells me that to win Liberalism avoiding BW here wasn't needed at all.
Probably there is problem with identifying how to measure the success of such strategy (avoiding BW)... no one is really sure how to measure it... is it win date of game? getting the bulb tech? or what it actually is?
feels like the problem with the article from beginning...there is not enough analysis to measure it against.
edit:
for example if you want to use this strategy in SGOTM you have to convince your team mates that the strategy is superior. For that you have to set some metric.
I will offer example of REX and Oracle. People do test games and test the worker micro, working tiles and then compare which approach was best to get for example first 5 cities and Oracle.
This is easy to measure and leads to optimizing techs and worker actions to get it the earliest.
We have to find some metric for "avoid BW" games to measure it's success. This wasn't defined at all and to me it looks like it's changing all the time... first it was who is first to Lib, now it seems the winning date decides? or ?
Brennus.Quigley
Warlord
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- Dec 14, 2011
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- 168
So what. It's not a Lib race. How many times does that have to be stated? You and your crew did that to the last game too. Meanwhile I'm working cottages, trading judiciously, growing my cities, watching my diplomacy, and genuinely trying to win. Please stop. If he can win then he should post the win.
Haha. Well your statement tells me that you're quick to jump on any little thing cause you really don't want the strategy to prove useful. How long does this map need to be up before one of you super hardcore Deity players can post a victory shot on a map that an Immortal player already won? In fact, the delay here is telling me that avoiding BW is very likely advantageous for this map. If any of you could of honestly beaten it you would have already have posted it just to put me in my place. Now we're getting into the "play through it a dozen times" phase.
Win the game. Post the results. Discuss. Not that complicated.
Dirk1302
Deity
That was the point indeed. Map is pretty boring so i don't think i will play it out.
I'm not really into discussing the strat at hand, i don't believe in it. Actually i don't even believe in what i did myself trying hinduism->judaism without myst as a starting tech. I certainly don't believe in teching to buddhism from scratch without myst, hopeless in > 80% of games and not really a backup plan.
@Sun Tzu Wu As for experienced vs less experienced player, Brennus has played at least fairly well to get at lib ~1110. Maybe if i would have put a massive effort in this i could have had it ~ 1000 AD, maybe not. I didn't do oracle->aest though as i had to detour through monotheism, that is a significant difference between our games, early Parthenon would have helped a lot.
Brennus.Quigley
Warlord
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Haha. Sure. Either that or...
OK. Well, then what was the point of you posting here at all? Honestly?
You chose that strategy, not me.
You don't believe in going for the Oracle via Meditation? Buddhism was just there. Could of gotten a different religion easy if it wasn't.
And I could have gotten the Great Library easy.
I also teched up to Monotheism after Aesthetics.
If it is not Lib race than I lost idea what is actual benefit of this "stragedy". Cause untill now I thought it was about Liberalism and bulbing Lib [to get faster or do less trades] in particular.
He will come up with new ideas soon, about how he can argue with much better players.
1 bulb = wuwu look at my new strategy (it's not like you would double bulb like Edu, no no this strategy is all about saving 1000 questionable Lib beakers) gets old very fast
Dirk1302
Deity
@Sorana,I thought bulbing lib earlier was the idea too. With BW only trades you have to do are MC and compass iirc and tech IW yourself.
It would be interesting to replay the map going through buddhism getting the religion then oracle aest or col, if that works and it's a big if i think i can make more of the map (early drama, winning music race delaying monarchy for example).Aest is nice to bulb but Col is probably better, second reli and almost a lock on a third with the Tao bulb. Problem here is that AIs maybe more peaceful with each other ...
It would be interesting to replay the map going through buddhism getting the religion then oracle aest or col, if that works and it's a big if i think i can make more of the map (early drama, winning music race delaying monarchy for example).Aest is nice to bulb but Col is probably better, second reli and almost a lock on a third with the Tao bulb. Problem here is that AIs maybe more peaceful with each other ...
