City placement: 3rd city and beyond

I thank the Honored Domestic Minister for his suggestions. Many of these come close to a plan that I have formulated upon looking at the recent save, after the pattern the Honored Foreign Minister's "Defensive Plan":

Phase 1: Securing Our Homeland and Local Resources:
This plan is represented by the Numbered City Sites and the Heavy White Line. This is in agreement with Provolution's recent plan. His previous plan is represented by the thin white line.

City 1 is the "Horseport", the completion of the securing of our Southern Highlands. While the Babylonians have concentrated their settlements to the East, I'm not so sure that the mountains will keep them out forever. This city should be one of the first two settled. If 2nd, I'd recommend a temporary garrisson of Warriors on most of the light blue dots in the SW section of the map to prevent Babylonian Settlement.

City 2 is the "Vinyard". This city has 2 possible sites, the floodplain gives up food for a deeper border. The Domestic Minister has endorced a more aggressive site that allows for development of the floodplains. These sites are 2 and 2X respectively. I personally approve of the DM's suggestion of 2X on this site. This city should be one of the first two settled.

City 3 is the "Gold Mine". While the DM's site for this city does not infringe on City 2, the site I have picked is better for local defense (the inside of a River Bend). While this city has little potential beyond the forested Grasslands, it does offer 2 Gold Hills. The Examples of Furuyama and Epolenep will soon show the power of stong Commerce, even in a moderately corrupt area.

City 4 covers the desert border march, and I have 3 sites listed. 2 take advantage of a single grassland that is unusable by all other sites. The other makes use of some of the Gems in the 4-Diamond Mountains, as well as a Floodplain which will feed these "Gemdiggers".

City 5 is on the Riverbend by the Lakeshore. Its chief purpose is border expansion for the Defensive Border, as well as taking advantage of the Lake Tiles. (This city may be subsitiuted for Noldodan's city if adopted and if Immo develops a Temple.)


Once our home region is secured, we can turn our attention to other matters, such as expansion beyond these borders.

Northward:
While this region remains unexplored, there should be a site (C) where the river W. of Hlobane meets the sea. By settling there, and keeping the nearby jungle, we expand our coastline, delaying a Pan-Zulu West Coast city, and may have a chance to have new types of trees in our nation. (Read: possibility of Rubber Source)

Eastward:
Part 1: Noldodania (Represented by Orange)
This single city proposed by Noldodan is a good site for a Worker Factory (by the time we get here, we won't need many more Settlers). The key problem I have with this site is the proximity of Antium. We would probably win Culture Wars, (i.e. keep this city,) but may lose it militarily.


Part 2: Pan-Japatanica (Represented by Purple)
This section gives 2 (and maybe 3) cities which claim resources, establish a "Pan-Japatanica" reaching the Eastern Coast, while maintaining the "Provo Doctrine" prioritizing Defensible Borders.

For each sector, there is a "Sir Donald" site and a "Alex T" site (Light Blue). (In other words, Alex, I have taken your plans, conformed it to the "defensible boundaries" doctrine, and generated a second city based on further expansion and the claiming of all the Silks. Hey, why not go for the juggular? Then again, I didn't see the "coastal alternative" as viable within the "defensible boundaries" doctrine.)

Site A: East Iron
Sir Donald: Close by, River, but little usable land. Nabs Iron only.
Alex T 1: Nabs Iron, Horses and half of within Temple Range. Allows for a "Defensible" T2 site.
Alex T 2: Only Silks immediate, All silks plus horses and iron within Temple range. A "1-Tile Away" site.
Again, I didn't see the "coastal alternative" as viable within the "defensible boundaries" doctrine.

Site B: Silk Coast
Sir Donald: Nams all 4 Silks and the Fish in 1 City without Temple.
Alex T: Nabs 1 Silk and Fish immediately, Remaining Silk within Temple Range. (Now, I know that Alex did not list this site, but this seems to me a natural expansion.)

Dotted lines represent alternate Security lines.

Now, for Eastern expansion, note the Red Dots at N and B and the Red Rs. These are where I might settle if I were Rome. Let us keep thise in consideration when we turn our eyes this way.

I strongly advocate the Settlement of Sites 1-3 as soon as possible, after which we can make other settlement plans.

Thank you for your consideration.

Sir Donald 3

Always a pleasure to recognize your strategic depth of vision. I see that we are several political factions that seek expansion into Babylonias Mountains, the Zulu Coast and the Eastern Frontier. I am personally a proponent for the Eastern Frontier, but have asked several FA specialists to draft in-process strategy plans for all directions, ready for the time they will be used.

What is critical to know about the Northern Roman border, is that defensible terrain holds as much true there as other places. We cannot settle that riverbed wth plains north of Antium "Noldodania", without risking military inferiority in terms of terrain and culnerability. This is why I recommneded the wedge through this territory in order to reach the Eastern coast, in order to grab iron, horses and silks. The important part with local iron and horse resources, is that we will not be vulnerable to plundering land improvements, disrupting iron lines to our iron resource. Local iron does not only deprive Romans of legions, eventual trading opportunities, but allows us to build up a strong regional presence in advance of future roadworks. Iron fatalists, the ones that is pessimistic to securing Roman Iron (many of these were skeptical of researching iron in the first place), state that it does not matter, the Romans are deemed to get iron.

IF the Romans have iron, we halve their access by getting this. IF they have no rion, we will remove their access utterly. We really need to hold that southern wall of the edge with localized spearmen in order to hold it cheaply, and evolve the Eastern Silk port and the interior Garrison City with iron and horse.

I agree that Horseport and Sake City should be built, but Lago City as number three, nefore we catch these Eastern cities.

Here we are, at the final city placement discussion for Term 1. Been quite the rocky road, hasn't it? Anyway, down to business.

Down South:

Down here there's a grain bonus and 3 (!) cows to take advantage of. The site here was proposed by President DaveShack. Further west, the city of "horseport", directly south of the iron, has been proposed repeatedly, but has never gotten many votes.

Up North:

There has been considerable pressure to settle up here to halt Zulu expansionism. The Northeastern site here would deny the Zulu any iron, and would be a good city with mines on the hills. The other three sites I have proposed are the best-producing sites close to us that I can see.

Lastly, the East:

This area has been the one most pressured to be settled quickly, mostly because of the resources available in the area. The western site isn't very critical, and can be settled at our leisure. The Iron and Silks sites, however, must be settled quickly if we are to steal these resources, because you can bet the Romans and Zulu are going to want these spots. Also, in case you find the resolution of the picture too low, the central site has Iron to the NW, and Horses to the East.

My personal Endorcements in the East are for:

West site: 1 tile NE, city goes on hill and we get both gold immediately

Iron Site: 1 Tile North (hill), Defensible Border Terrain, grasses still in Temple Range.

Silk Site: 1 Tile NE (still Silks). Grabs a Fish in Pre-Temple range in addition to all 4 Silks.


I agree that, while many sites are urgent, Gold Mine can be settled at leisure.

I am against Zulu Iron site at this point due to large supply lines. We can add it to a conquest expansion plan should we war with Zulu, but not right now...

On the other hand, I would endorce both the Zulu Settler factory, so long as A: it's on our side of the river, and B: we can grab a Coastal River delta due South soon thereafter.

What I call "Refrigerated Barbeque" is also a good site. Placing it 1 square NW would put it by a River tile and still keep everything within TR. But I can see how you'd be against this site as being infringing on Epolenep. (Either way seems well enough...)

And put a guard on Horseport Now! We need to keep it for us, so that we can settle it soon.

We could block Babs access to horseport position, but we will need at least 2-3 units. I will post about this in MA thread.

1. Cattle position is nice but very risky. We need to settle it immediately and the city will probably be in constant risk to flip to Babs. Tho, we could use larger garisson force there because it would be bad if we let Babs get so great place.

2. North: middle position (where are 2 proposed tiles) but i think we should settle on a hill next to gold. Don't waste floodplain square and we need defensive bonus. Most northern position is too far (thats zulu iron), and most southern isn't discovered well yet but it could have potential.

3. East:

a) West site: agree with sir donald
b) Iron site: not really sure, that city will be terrible until later in the game, unless we gather large number of workers to clear the jungle.
c) Silk site: agree with sir donald

Personally, I'm for settling in the East, but I think we should grab those three cows. I would move the spot 1 tile East so as not to crowd Epolenep. I don't think the Bab city will give us much of a problem. After that, go East young man....

Well, for now, Iron site would be the "Final Nail" in the coffin of Roman Expansion, once we get a Temple up and running. Both suggestions are 2 tiles away from teh coast. An Extra Warrior or 2 could likely be used here, to prevent the Romans from sneaking past.

North Settler and PDX5 would limit either Zulu or Barb expansion. The bonus with North Settler is that we can reasonably reserve the Coastline Delta betwen there and Zojoji, so long as we aren't outflanked. (PDX5 would merely secure out plains border. we'd still need to watch the hill border, though.)

Sorry for the Double-Post, but I'd like to see if we're on the same page here. Attached is a picture showing tile locations for the sites. These are numbered by Sector (1-8) and the oval denoting the site indicates its author in the thread. (His Honor, the President's Choice I credited to you, Honorable Domestic Minister, and I apologise if it was in error. EDIT: Actually, it was my alternate that the Prewident envisioned, see next post. )

A total of 14 Sites in 8 Sectors. How does this look?

The cattle site should be on the river next to the wheat. The site shown in the graphic is not on the river, which would defeat one major purpose of choosing this site, the ability to get huge production as it grows straight to size 12. We would need to have a temple right away to expand to the other two cows, build local culture and defend against flips, but we don't really need to worry about Babylon in that regard. If we get this site, they will never be strong enough to be a contender the way things are going.

If we fail to get to this site, then Babylon will settle it and start tossing off military units like crazy. Trying to deny them a resource through settling somewhere else (horseport) is way too short sighted -- if they get this production center we are in big trouble. In my own games, in this situation I post a couple of warriors at the desired site, and if an opposing settler comes along I go ahead and capture it for a couple of extra workers.

Edit: in SD3's terms, 8W is the highest priority site IMHO.

You got mine right (8E). 8 moves due South of where the Settler is now. There is protection in the area, it can build a couple of workers to road and irrigate the land. By the time they get done, we'll have a Monarch. A Temple, a Barracks, a Library. We'll be set as our Bab border.

Well, with what happened and is happening in tha TC... let's just say the AI is pushing Rapid Expansion now. (Even to the point of war, but that's our First and second Generals' Province.)

What I have to do here is try to work within these confines for the moment.

Right now, we have 1 settler 2 turns from establishing a new city, and 2 more settlers awaiting orders.

We also have our previous second choice, "5 South" within Pompei's "Temple Radius", and the Eastern Iron with it. Therefore, here and now, while I will let 8 East stand (against my personal opinion), I am hereby declaring 5 South null and void due to the local situation.


I have drafted 4 "Operations" with a total of 5 possible City Site sets designed to employ these settlers to the best of our ability. The map of all of these "Operations" is attached to the post. (Width 900, apologies for those with small-moderate resolution.)

To the North is "Operation Northern March", one of the few remaining unsettled frontiers near our borders, though it may not be for long. If the Romans are pushing settlers, the Zulu may not be that far behind. Anyway, I have placed a City Site by the River near the border Floodplain. My prefered site for this city is Light Blue. Another site which has been previously proposed which, IMO, has some merit is in Dark Grayish-Blue. Such a city would give us Golden Hills, Floodplains, and perhaps enough room to squeeze in a city at the River's Delta (currently unexplored). And if the Zulus are napping, we could use this as a Settler Base, or at least a Worker Base...

In the Northeast where Pompei is, I have constructed "Operation Save Face". The cities there stand to try to take as many away from Pompei without risking Culture Flips. Prefered sites are in Bright Purple, though 1 site has an alternate in Dark Purple, and may be prefered for its hill, though it nabs only 1 Silk in TR.

Keeping with the theme, a city site I had looked into in the past has been pushed 1 tile West due to the founding of Neapolis, as "Operation Save Rear." This site, once considered a "Border completer", may soon be in the "Front Lines."

Finally, there is "Operation Horseport", where Horse and Iron lay West of Epolenep. Note the Babylonian Settler Pair in the vicinity. They seem to currently be making for 8E. However, once our guys set down, I think they will turn tail and head West to the Iron. Though Horses would be in the Temple Range of Epolenep, they can still be taken by the Babs settling on the Green Square, which is also my recommended site.


As of now, I open the floor for other suggestions. Please study the map while doing so.

What about settling on the hills just north of the gold outside Ellipi? Could be dangerous, but could also become a barrier to Roman expansion culturally. There's a river nearby for irrigation, and if we could build a temple and library quickly, should be able to prevent culture flips. If we heaped culture into that city, 8 East, and Odowara, we may be able to flip Antium or Neapolis, which would put is in good stead to take out the Romans, which seems to be the preferred option.

If we're going to take out the romans, we really need to prevent access to Iron quickly - Legions are tough to beat. Operation Save Face could be an option, but we'd need to build a temple fast in that possible city just north of Odowara, or move the city location East or South-East one tile

Civman2004 said:

What about settling on the hills just north of the gold outside Ellipi? Could be dangerous, but could also become a barrier to Roman expansion culturally. There's a river nearby for irrigation, and if we could build a temple and library quickly, should be able to prevent culture flips. If we heaped culture into that city, 8 East, and Odowara, we may be able to flip Antium or Neapolis, which would put is in good stead to take out the Romans, which seems to be the preferred option.

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So, inline with Odowara-Antium? Wouldn't affect neapolis, and Antium's too close to Rome, but it might make for a good forward base...

If we're going to take out the romans, we really need to prevent access to Iron quickly - Legions are tough to beat. Operation Save Face could be an option, but we'd need to build a temple fast in that possible city just north of Odowara, or move the city location East or South-East one tile

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Or perhaps 1 tile South. It'd be a little closer to Odowara, but it would nab the Iron immediately while maintianing an okay distance from Pompei.

Sir Donald III said:

So, inline with Odowara-Antium? Wouldn't affect neapolis, and Antium's too close to Rome, but it might make for a good forward base...

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Yup. Good place to heal units too if the battle rages around Rome...

Sir Donald III said:

Or perhaps 1 tile South. It'd be a little closer to Odowara, but it would nab the Iron immediately while maintianing an okay distance from Pompei.

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That 1 tile south option could be a good one. I'm just wary of allowing the romans
easy access to Iron. Another way to stop them which I hadn't thought of before would be to plant a city cutting off Pompeii from Rome - ie one tile to the east of that Roman warrior, or possibly the tile south-east of that one, on the coast. If we could link up our cultural borders from that city and Odowara, they might get the Iron in Pompeii, but it wouldn't be getting to Rome unless we built a road for them between the two.

We should make new thread about next two cities because they are very important and we are on the verge of war.
If we now go for Iron city than we're asking for war with Rome. We have no good location near iron and Rome will eat us culturally.
Again, if we settle there we willl not be able to deffend ourselves if cought unready, especially now when iroquios warriors are approaching Immo.
Also this time we should again poll city 8 with all positions including 8c. We need hills for production.

These are most important issues and they deserve new thread and good and efficient planning.

invy said:

Also this time we should again poll city 8 with all positions including 8c. We need hills for production.

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Ah, now I see why we went 9 turns and couldn't get the Settler that was supposed to be at the correct location in 8 to that spot. This explains the confusion of our DP, who constantly complained about the polled and approved location of 8e.

I think i don't undestand you well Cyc? What did you mean with last post? That i missled Chieftess to 8c??

I think Chieftess forgot to move settler in Immo in turn 0 and thats why we didn't get there in time (tho it might be something else). I also wrote this during chat. I, as many others, pointed where was 8E, someone even posted screenshot, just check the chatlog. When CT finally moved settler everyone knew where is 8E.

invy said:

I think i don't undestand you well Cyc? What did you mean with last post? That i missled Chieftess to 8c??

I think Chieftess forgot to move settler in Immo in turn 0 and thats why we didn't get there in time (tho it might be something else). I also wrote this during chat. I, as many others, pointed where was 8E, someone even posted screenshot, just check the chatlog. When CT finally moved settler everyone knew where is 8E.

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No, I'm afraid you misundertood me too, Invy. I in no way said you mislead CT to 8c. What you wrote about me and spamming complaints really did read like you were saying I was a cuase, not a cure. So I misread you too.

What I'm saying is 8e is 8 turns due South of Immo. 8 turns to get from Immo to 8e. On the 9th turn we Settle. But as you can see by the save, we are on the 9th turn, yet on the wrong tile, even though we've had discussion, maps and polls about this. Why is this? Confusion you say? Maybe because of the way CT was complaining about the 8e location over and over, she thought she could get a repoll when the chat ended. Even with Neopolis being founded on Turn number 4, we should have been right next to it, and because Caesar never asked us to leave, we should have kept right on going South to 8e.

And while we're talking about city locations, right now we have 2? workers building a road on a Mountain that will never fall within any city's limits. We should have roaded the hill to the NE. That will be used.

EDIT: BTW, there is no way CT could have gotten that Settler on 8c had she held it back for a turn, like you suggest.

And the intrepid CJ continues in his quest to make the JA obsolete

Heck, when we had 2 Settlers, she wanted to move them to sites 2 and 4, and said that 4 was already settled. She was using the poll from 2 Turnchats ago. (I even said so in the Log.)

Invy... I considered it. I will make a poll for the 2 settlers of course. As for City 8... Repolling that one is not my call. Technically, Noldo is still in charge for the next... 33 hours? And the origianl poll was for his last TC. If anyone could authorize a repoll... it would be Cyc and the Judiciary, and they would have to find Noldo in contempt... Hm...

Sir Donald III said:

And the intrepid CJ continues in his quest to make the JA obsolete

Heck, when we had 2 Settlers, she wanted to move them to sites 2 and 4, and said that 4 was already settled. She was using the poll from 2 Turnchats ago. (I even said so in the Log.)

Invy... I considered it. I will make a poll for the 2 settlers of course. As for City 8... Repolling that one is not my call. Technically, Noldo is still in charge for the next... 33 hours? And the origianl poll was for his last TC. If anyone could authorize a repoll... it would be Cyc and the Judiciary, and they would have to find Noldo in contempt... Hm...

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It's not just the Judge Advocate's job to uphold the rules of the game, SD3. It's every member of the Judiciary.

Thank for confirming my point.

I think you may be giving the Judiciary too much authority here. We would only make a ruling on it if asked. There should be a good reason for ANY repolling. Noldodan made a decent poll and stated his reasoning for the options, which panned out. I see no reason for repolling.