Design: Civics

I have another - not thougth to the end - idea about war weariness. How about increasing war weariness if you attack someone where you had good relations before and decreasing it for guys with bad relations.

So for example you had open Boarders with someone, your people are happy trading. If you now go to war your peaople will get upset as you kill their firends. Same with shared religions and alignments.

Chalid said:

I have another - not thougth to the end - idea about war weariness. How about increasing war weariness if you attack someone where you had good relations before and decreasing it for guys with bad relations.

So for example you had open Boarders with someone, your people are happy trading. If you now go to war your peaople will get upset as you kill their firends. Same with shared religions and alignments.

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Yeah, there should most definitely and unarguablily be increased WW for going at it with allies especially strong allies,but the one who starts the war should suffer even more........to prevent AI from abusing the rule......and sour pus greedy non-friends should most definitely have less WW because the people are like"Yah, we hate them, kill them all!"....sooo

I don't think you need to repeat it with aligment and religion similarities, as this is already accounted for in diplomacy.
Is this value even calculated? Your diplo modifier with the AI, I mean, not vice versa.

So anyhow, what's the use of Fend for Themselves? Unless someone really wants to get an evil modifier and -1 health, it's pretty much useless.

evanb said:

So anyhow, what's the use of Fend for Themselves? Unless someone really wants to get an evil modifier and -1 health, it's pretty much useless.

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It has no upkeep cost.

Kael said:

Government

+Despotism
Upkeep: Low

+City States
Upkeep: Low
-80% distance maintenance
-25% Gold
-10% Culture

+God King
Upkeep: High
+1 Happy from State Religion
+50% hammers, +50% Gold in capital
+10% distance maintenance

+Aristocracy
Upkeep: Low
+2 Gold from Farms
-1 Food from Farms

+Monarchy
Upkeep: Medium
+1 Happy per military unit stationed in city
Allows the building of the Royal Guard

+Republic
Upkeep: Medium
+3 Happy in 5 largest cities
Unhappiness penalty for all Civs without Republic
+10% Culture

Click to expand...

Maybe instead of calling it "Government" calling it "Justification of Rule?" Thats just artistic but when it comes down to it, the "rest" of the government does squat.
-QES

Kael said:

Government


+Monarchy
Upkeep: Medium
+1 Happy per military unit stationed in city
Allows the building of the Royal Guard


Education

+Military Discipline
Upkeep: Medium
+10% Military Production

Unlimited Scientists

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Why not switch this up a bit. Give Monarchy +100% Great Person in Capital, and 25% In all cities. And boost Military Discipline by giving it the +1 Happy per Unit in city. - People being TAUGHT that the army is good. The Monarchy Taking an interest in great people.
Keep the Royal Guard unit with Monarchy.

-QES

A though On crusades for the bannor.

Perhaps another benifit of the crusade, is that if you (or anyone your at war with) have the founding city of that religion, There would be a % chance that units (actual units) in foreign cities with that religion might instantly be gifted to you. So if your going order, and announce a crusade on the blaggard who took your holy city by conquest from another civ, all cities (in the world) that have Order would have % chance to give you some units. After all crusades are pan-national. They are epics of war.
-Qes

As a player, I'm not sure I would appreciate losing (actually, the game would say "giving", but I'm sure I would read "losing" anyway) units to the bannor just because they found it fun to wage war on some clueless/distant civ.

I'd consider it the other way : increase the diplo bonus for giving units to the bannor when you have the same religion and they are on a crusade. This way, you take benefit from giving units, you get a chance to choose the actual units that are given to the bannor, and more importantly you get a chance to decide wether your civ is gonna help them at all (if they were already strong, you could prefer the bannor to spend a lot of energy during the crusade so you can stab them in the back* later... and I'm sure you wouldn't want to give them perfectly usable units in this situation )

* it's not like there was any other way of stabbing the bannor anyway... with those shiny armors they keep wearing, you would hardly find a spot to stab when facing them.


edit: that said, I do like the idea of giving the crusade a snowball effect of some sort... IRL, they actually did involve several countries on each side.

edit2: btw, why not allow the same effect for the attacked civ ? Say the Bannor decide to launch a crusade against the bad-bad overlordish Balseraph, on a side, the bannor would be given units by order civs for the diplo bonus, but on the other side the Balseraph could also be given units by other OO civs for the same bonus (possibly a little lower). The snowball effect could even be increased by making unit-giving give a diplo bonus towards the friendly civ and a diplo malus towards the ennemy civ. Il I give the bannor a couple of units, I would get a +n modifier to the Bannor, and a -n modifier to the Balseraph, while their parteners get bad diplo with the bannor for helping their ennemy. All in all, that could help making crusades real world-wide events (I have a feeling that it is currently mainly a two-civs issue, but I must say I think I only watched two of them before, and was involved in none).

SchpailsMan said:

edit2: btw, why not allow the same effect for the attacked civ ? Say the Bannor decide to launch a crusade against the bad-bad overlordish Balseraph, on a side, the bannor would be given units by order civs for the diplo bonus, but on the other side the Balseraph could also be given units by other OO civs for the same bonus (possibly a little lower). The snowball effect could even be increased by making unit-giving give a diplo bonus towards the friendly civ and a diplo malus towards the ennemy civ. Il I give the bannor a couple of units, I would get a +n modifier to the Bannor, and a -n modifier to the Balseraph, while their parteners get bad diplo with the bannor for helping their ennemy. All in all, that could help making crusades real world-wide events (I have a feeling that it is currently mainly a two-civs issue, but I must say I think I only watched two of them before, and was involved in none).

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If this would be included as an option, i dont think it should be voluntary, i think units should just (of their own will, i.e. randomness) be given to the crusading nation. There would be exceptions. If you happened to be the one at war with the bannor, you would be immune.....i would think. Also, i do like the idea that the country your at war with gets the same benefit, but what if your at war with several countries? That sort of effect doesnt sound plausible. Remember, that the crusade would only get this added benifit if the holy city was involved. You have to own it, or "for a better % of troops joining you" they have to own it. Therefore, troops from foriegn civs would only really be garnered when "their" holy city was on the line. I like the idea of people being pissed at the bannor becuase they're always going on crusade, and leigons of their own people, go off and leave home and country to join them on religious quests. IRL it did happen, but i think the "feeling" should carry over to this Fantasy realm too...religion IS important after all.

-Qes

CITY STATES.

Not city enough, not independant enough. And does anyone ever use it?

THis is my beef, the main benefit to using it, is the reduction in maintenance. And it still has "low maintenance" But the only reason you'd seek this is for cash flow and perhaps culture, which it directly harms.

So the only reason youd lower your maintenance costs, is immediately nullified by the choice. Also, if you want to reduce your maintenance costs, you could alter OTHER civics to reach the same aims.

The Thing about city states is that historically (in fiction as well) it was thier independance and vitality that gave people purpose to know of them. Some cities were ignored, and others were considered the center of the world (gotta love them greeks). Most of the time each city was ruled differenetly, but they all belonged to a universal culture. Perhaps city states should increase cultural effects, as well as reduce maintenance, and the negation should be more militarily based - since its hard to convince cities to join together to defeat any kind of common foe. Cities (trade city state empires especially) thrived financially.

My suggestions:
City States - (low upkeep) -50% maintenance, +20% culture, +1 gold per city (intra-national trade, sort of works like internal trade routes), and -20% military production, -10% building production (hard to organize cities to do what you want)
-Qes

M@ni@c said:

Re the City States civic. It offers -80% city distance maintenance, but has a penalty of -25% of all your gold. That's a huge penalty!

Eg currently I'm in a crazy game where my distance maintenance is double as much as my number of cities maintenance. But I'd still be losing money if I'd run City States.

So I'm wondering, how about reducing the penalty to -10% gold? Then I think it would still be rare circumstances where City States is better than the other civic you usually can have at the same time: God King.

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QFT! City States is a useless choice at the moment.

M@ni@c said:

QFT! City States is a useless choice at the moment.

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So what do you think of my proposal?
-50% Maintenance, +20% Culture (% so only cities actually making culture benefit) +1 Gold per city (like Inter-city trading) -20% Military and -10% building production. (Hard to tell cities what to do)
-Qes

Problem with giving City States +20% culture would be though that Republic already gives that.

Personally I think City States having a malus on military stuff fits though.

But it's not me you need to convince.

M@ni@c said:

Problem with giving City States +20% culture would be though that Republic already gives that.

Personally I think City States having a malus on military stuff fits though.

But it's not me you need to convince.

Click to expand...

I try to convince everyone.......The team might listen to Everyone.....there is little reason to listen to me if im all alone in my crazy thoughts.

Your right about the culture. Not sure what to replace it with, if anything. Is there a way to Enhance what trade routes yeild? Maybe a +25% trade route yeild? That way your getting +1 gold from internal trading, and +25% from external, with low maintenance. Economically quite powerful, but with production penalties in both military AND buildings...your not going to be fighting very many successful wars.
-Qes

QES said:

Is there a way to Enhance what trade routes yeild?

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The civics XML file has this in it. Not sure what it does though.
If this tag doesn't increase trade yield though, Impaler has a mod included in CCCP - the Universal Building Mod - which can add a building to each city with a certain civic. So it's certainly possible to code this.

M@ni@c said:

Code:

           <TradeYieldModifiers>
            </TradeYieldModifiers>

The civics XML file has this in it. Not sure what it does though.
If this tag doesn't increase trade yield though, Impaler has a mod included in CCCP - the Universal Building Mod - which can add a building to each city with a certain civic. So it's certainly possible to code this.

Click to expand...

There ya go. City states could have the "city throne" or "city bazaar" or something that so named depicts both independance and economics. And it'd yeild trade route goodness. This would make me at least CONSIDER using city states.
-Qes

Ok, recently playing as the Malakim, i founded the order, and stomped on the calabim with realative ease - (The barbarians left me generally alone for once? it was wierd).

I have come to some of the following conclusions on civics.

GUILDS and CASTE SYSTEM are too similar. And frankly, it makes me generally not want to use GUILDS.
Stats as is:
Caste System
Upkeep: Medium
+1 Free specialist in every city
+2 Culture per specialist
Can spend gold to finish production

Guilds
Upkeep: Medium
Unlimited Merchants
Can spend gold to finish production

Here's the Thing. WHen you get a free specialist per city, that can be ANYTHING, not just merchants. And while you ahve to have "specific buildings" to get merchants normally, you also have to sacrifice a tile of work space to use/get a merchant.

I dont think That "unlimited" is equal to "one freebie" So yes, this makes it difference. But considering that they BOTH have the options of using gold to rush work, it comes down to that being the only real difference. With the extra 2 culture for caste system its pretty easy to NEVER use guilds.

I see two possible solutions to this.

A) "Drastic Change" Is give Caste system Unlimited specialists, AND 1 free specialist, AND +2 culture per specialist. In this, Caste system is your "specialist" based labor. GUILDS, should/could be more about the town workers. I sort of miss from vanilla civ hammers from villages and towns. Guilds can get +1 hammer per village, +1 Hammer +1 Gold From Towns (Therefore Guild based Labor would have slightly more potent towns and villages) -- The major consequence of this, and I believe this will happen anyway, is that villages will have to be built less often to maintain balance. I think this is going to happen anyway, with each race begining to get "different" improvements other than villages for their race. Dwarves i think will concentrate on mines and the like, the elves will have tree top cottages (weaker than normal cottages) etc. But your average "landlover" will then get a bit more "powerful" compared to his contemporaries if he has guilds. On the down side, no "specialist" love.

B) The Less drastic Change, is to let guilds have unlimited "any specialists" and perhaps a "hurry" bonus. like -40% cost to hurry production. Or something of this sort.

Thoughts?
-Qes

Since it's late and I'm still up, I feel like providing my input on the civics. This comes from only a few games (about 6), though, so I'm not sure if some civics would be better suited for the civs I haven't yet played. For what it's worth:

Government

City States
Tried it once, and it sucked. Every time I get the chance to use it, I do some quick math and realise it will lose me too much money to be any benefit. Based on my experience to date, I feel this one could use a change - though I'm reserving my opinion until I play the Kuriotates.

God King
Used to like this one. Now, with the Khazad, I love it.

Aristocracy
Always scoffed at the idea of reducing food yield, but it fit really well with the Ljosalfar (I really only had farms on food resources and small number of other tiles) - at least until I got other civics. I would have considered it for the Khazad if not for my love of God King right from the beginning, and if I had the financial leader instead of Thorne.

Monarchy
I used to use this regularly in Vanilla or Modded Vanilla Civ. Haven't yet used it in FfH II, though, as my need for happiness hasn't been so great to warrant the cost. I think this civic could use a tweak.

Republic
I really like across-the-board culture boosts, so unless I'm in love with another of these Government civics, I'll naturally progress to this one.

Cultural Values

Religion
A good upgrade from the base civic once you get religion, of course.

Social Order (The Order only)
Not bad for a militant Order nation.

Nationhood
I've never used it. I don't like culture drains and drafting troops is not that important to me. However, I have yet to have a problem with war weariness, so I understand as soon as I get into military trouble this civic would warrant a try.

Liberty
+100% Culture? You betcha! I almost think the upkeep is too low, but you didn't hear it from me.

Consumption
I don't think I've had a game where I didn't use this one at some point. I think it's a good, balanced civic.

Labor

Slavery (Octopus Overlords only)
A well balanced civic for the OO, in my opinion.

Arete (Runes of Kilmorph only)
I'm not big on GP, but I'll use this if I'm worshipping Kilmorph - until a better civic comes along.

Military State
Same comment as for Nationhood

Serfdom
I love speeding up workers. Isn't the penalty -10% food, though... I can't remember.
However, I haven't used this much because Caste System typically comes first for me.

Caste System
Free specialist and extra culture per specialist? You betcha! I really like this civic, and also think the upkeep is too low for what you get. Or it needs more drawback (unless this is part of the double-win theme).

Guilds
Same upkeep as Caste System, but you don't get anything from it. I don't consider unlimited merchants as getting something, as QES mentions above.
I've never even considered using this civic, not even for a merchant-like empire.

Economy

Conquest
A decent civic for war-like empires.

Agriculture
Simple, and a good stand-by.

Mercantilism
I'm not a fan of this one. In Vanilla, at least you got the free specialists to make it somewhat beneficial. The loss of foreign trade would be a huge hit unless you've been completely ostracized by your opponents (which hasn't yet happened to me, so...).

Foreign Trade
I really like it. And, as with all civics I really like, I feel it may be overpowered slightly.

Guardian of Nature (Fellowship of Leaves only)
Every elf's goal! I feel it is well-balanced with the High upkeep.

Religion

Organized Religion
One of my favourites, but one I actually think is balanced well.

Theocracy
I used to use this one often in Vanilla, but with FfH, the +2 XP is really nothing. Perhaps that is because I always have raging barbs and they don't attack very smartly so my troops get XP easily.

Pacifism
I've used this when trying to get a prophet for my religion's shrine, but that's it. I'm not big on the GP, as mentioned before.

Free Religion
I have yet to use this (I'm too happy with the religion in FfH), but I see nothing wrong with it.

Crusade (Bannor only) (Loki)
Hmm, I look forward to using this someday, but I've got no input to give other than it looks like fun.

Compassion

I think all of these are fairly simple and well-balanced.

Education

Apprenticeship
I use this sometimes, but only until I can afford one of the last two. Again, I'm not too concerned with 2 XP.

Military Discipline
It doesn't appeal to me, perhaps for the same reasons as the other military civics.

Religious Discipline
Not bad. Used it for the Khazad to help get a Great Prophet. The extra happiness helped, too.

Scholarship
My favourite of the bunch, if I don't just stick with Beavis and Butthead for the whole game.

- Niilo

QES, I like your ideas on Caste System vs Guilds (both drastic and less drastic) and City States (though, why not increase War Weariness instead of decrease Military production?).

- Niilo